I like a good argument …er, discussion about which power tool company is the best, but I don’t think any group is more dedicated than Festool junkies…they even have their own website!
Anybody who knows Fine Homebuilding knows that we don’t play favorites. Not ever. I’ve praised Festool where I think they deserve praise, and criticized them where I think they missed the mark:
Tool Hound review of Parallel Guide Rails
Video review of Kapex KS 120 Miter Saw
Video review of EHL 65E Portable Planer [Brand New!]
So, this week I’d like to hear YOUR opinions, instead. Cast your vote, and then join the discussion, below:
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I don't own anything Festy, but I've used a few of them and enjoyed it. The tools are well-designed and built, and seem like they'll last a long time. (Unlike some tools made by other manufacturers I could name.) However, some Festo tools are within a price range of competing tools - the jigsaw, for instance, sells for roughly $75 more than it's closest rival - and in that light, really shine. The more expensive models cost so much more than the competition that it really takes a die-hard fan or someone with good cash flow to justify the expense. Most of us would love to drive a Turbo Carrera, but have to settle for a Honda.
I edited the jigsaw review Andy Engel did a few years ago - so I got to test Festool's jigsaw; it was pretty sweet. And the folks at Festool let me try a few new tools out while giving me a tour at the International Builders Show. But in my ten years building and remodeling houses I never used a Festool anything on the jobsite. Now, I voted 'yes, they're worth it' in the poll above. And I think for the most part they are. You wouldn't catch me using them anywhere but in a shop though. To me it would seem like taking a Mercedes off-road (at least, I imagine it would feel that way).
I answered yes, but I believe there should be a maybe box...
I think some of their tools are worth the money, without a doubt. My TS55 comes to mind, though there are now some competitors. When I bought the saw, there were none. The precision and dust collection are almost priceless to me. After I finally bought the saw, I wondered why I waited so long.
I feel the same way about my Festool planer and router. The jigsaw, which I reviewed for FHB a number of years back, I'm not so sure about, Is it really worth twice what the Bosch is? I like the performance, and the compact size, but I don't know if I could have paid full price for it. Same goes for my little 5" sander. I love the sander; it is quiet, smooth, has good dust collection and leaves a great surface. But is it twice as good as the PC, or the Bosch, or Makita, or Dw? The pad wears out prematurely, and the proprietary paper is pricey. I've replaced the pad 3 times on my 4 year old sander, never on my 10 year old PC...
I've used the Kapex, and can't see shelling out double what the excellent Milwaukee costs. Same goes for the cordless drills. A domino is on my short list, though.
I consider myself a cautious fan...
- Kit
I've had many tools in my life, some still survive. With care they last much longer. I wax mine when new, the dust seems to blow off better! I have 5 Festools now & without reservation are the best. All have dust collection & innovation unrivaled so far. The Domino has made my ideas come to life! The Rotax sander & vac a joy to use. My panel saw & 1968 PM 66 tablesaw are now quiet thanks to the TS 55 saw & 2 rails! They cost much more but so many tools in the past have had issues (breakdowns) way before even the brushes are half worn! Yes my Milwaukee 12" chop saw is great, my Bosch 10' table saw is too (after 3 replacements!) Great tools cost more up front but are more reliable in the long run to me. Go to OWWM.com & see what I mean! On the other hand while we are all looking for work and most tools are made overseas, (Milwaukee, Powermatic ect. now China), maybe we should look to our own innovations & creativity to pull this country back to where it should be; THE BEST!
Being an all-around DIY, I have never bought anything high-end unless used and broken.
This comment is a generalization of high artificial (e.g. advertising) prices.
That said, the high end stuff generally has a better oriinal fit and finish; however, if you value your own time at no more that about $100 and hour, a few minutes 'tuning up' anything that is fairly solid to begin with results in a better tool than about anything 'out of the box', regardless of cost.
Example: A $50 Craftsman cast iron 10" TS from the 70's - replace the ball bearings with double row, true up the arbor on your lathe, install CI pulleys, peen vs. just shim the mountings, mount on a 400# or heavier bench of scrap lumber vs. spinly legs, and you suddenly have a saw that can slice and dice as well as any $700 saw out of the box.
BTW, dont have a lathe to true up stuff? You could, if you did not spend extravagent amounts on 'new' tools.
One psycology study found that folks that buy high end (be it tools, appliances, cars, etc. ) tend to rate them very high, self protection of an erroneous decision??
Is that true about the psychology study, Junkhound? If so, that's pretty interesting. Do you remember where you read/heard that?
I answered yes to the poll, but like any tool manufacturer there are exceptions. Some of the Festool tools really are a cut above the rest and some are just as good as the competition. I use my Festools in the shop and on the job site. I take care of them but I do not baby them. They are tough enough for the job site without question.
As a finish carpenter / re-modeler I need a variety of different tools to perform my work. Festools 'system' approach excels in this situation. The dust collection is a big benefit and a cornerstone of the system. Most of the tools are made to work together. The storage and transport is made easy with the supplied and optional Systainers.
After many years of use in different job environments I can safely say my Festools are worth the price I paid.
I have a fair amount invested in Festool and use them on a regular basis and would say on a whole they make an excellent product.
That said, I haven't purchased a new Festool product in about two years and I just might not again. I do believe that there is a price to pay for high quality tools, but I think the folks over at Festool are just a bit over the line nowadays with their new pricing.
The bottom line is you have to feeling like you are still getting some value whenever you spend your hard earned cash and I kinda lost that warn and fuzzy feeling with Festool.
As a finish carpentry contractor I’m willing to spend money on anything that makes me money. I got tired of the cost of dealing with palm sanders that broke down or fell apart within 6 months of purchase. The Rotex 125, is a brilliant tool and a money saver for me. The dual mode rotation makes flushing up joints at skirts and baseboard, or at wainscoting stiles and rails easy. This thing removes stock aggressively when I need it to and sands easy and smooth when its time. At $400 bucks it’s a pricey piece of equipment. I let a new hire use it once and he handed it back to me saying “it broke”. I had the tool about 3 years, and so I thought it was still under warranty. I called Festool and they let me talk to someone from the tech department. “Oh, sounds like the brushes are worn out”. Long story longer I send it to Indiana, I believe, and it comes back in about seven days. They installed the new brushes (that was the problem) but also included a new cord, new pad etc.—no cost to me. I think that was three years ago. And this sander gets used every day.
My ts 55 has earned its keep.
Jigsaw—not so sure. It is a sweet tool but my Bosch is fine.
1400 router—new purchase, jury is still out
Tucker - thanks for the post. If I were on the job everyday and in the market for a sander your experience would be enough to get me to purchase Festool's. Every time I sent a tool out for repair - whether a thickness planer or miter saw - it took weeks to get it back and always cost me way more than the down time.
I can't speak directly on this topic. I've only used the multi-master, and I have nothing else to compare with it.
Still, it's a question that needs asking. When the price for a tool varies by as much as a factor of 10, "value" has a place in the decision - as does the uses.
That is, my standards are higher for a tool I use all day, every day, as opposed to something I'll use once in a blue moon. Were you to look in my truck, you'd find both some 'pro grade' as well as some 'cheap import.' If i did different work the mix would be different.
"Proprietary" is a two-edged sword when it comes to tools. For example, my reciprocating was rated as 'best,' but some after-market accessories won't fit it. That can be an issue, especially with multi-use tools, or tools with parts that wear out.
Although I voted Yes, I don't think it is a fair question.
Would you say that Porter Cable is worth the money?
How about Bosch? Fein? Delta? etc.
Every company has their gems as well as their turds.
Festool's vacuum is one of the best on the market. The circular saw system is above average and certainly worth the money when compared to other, similar systems.
Their sanders are average compared to PC and their jigsaw is comparable in quality to a Bosch, Fein, or Metabo but costs more. Is a Kapex worth $1300 when it does the same job as a $200 chopsaw?
I do not like their routers. They are cumbersome and feel underpowered. The domino doesn't impress me, especially for that price. Try comparing their planer to a Porter Cable Porta-Plane.
Their accessories are ridiculously overpriced. $300 for a router accessory kit, $200 for a vacuum hose kit, another $200 for an angle guide, $460 for a work table!??!
I guess I should have voted NO.
Justin:
I cannot recall the specific paper that discussed the rationalization aspect of having overspent for a well made but low value due to high overpriced item. However, a quick google search did pull up the following, which is an overview of the subject of buyer remorse, rationalization, and cognitive dissonance.
http://www.acrwebsite.org/volumes/display.asp?id=11992
Awhile back on BT, the subject of $1500 Bosch and similar dishwashers came up. The camps were 100% split, no one who had bought a high priced DWasher thought it was a mistake, no one would admit that they could have used the $$ for better purpose or that they were 'taken'. The other side were the rational or non-wealthy individuals, who had
serviced appliances and could not see mcuh difference for $1200 other than bells and whistles and $20 worth of sound insulation than anyone could add.
Anybody who knows Fine Homebuilding knows that we don't play favorites. Not ever. I've praised Festool where I think they deserve praise, and criticized them where I think they missed the mark:
====================================================
Justin,
This is an understatement.
Your review of the Festool parallel guides shows how far your statement is from truth.
The ez repeaters is a patent pending tool and is available for 4 years now? You was at the Breaktime fes. where dino demoed his repeaters for the first time.
actually the ez repeater was redesigned few times to provide
more rigidity and capacity. Double the Festool capacity and strength. I asked Dno if YOU knew about the ez repeaters and he told me to look at his new forum.
http://www.tracksawforum.com ( Search for your Name)
If you knew about the ez repeaters why you made a false statement? What's in for you?
Dino is banned from breaktime because of you and now you're free to misinform and lie to honest members for...what?
Shame on you. I hope your senior editor looks into this and
Do the right thing.
You may banned me from the forum and Breaktime for talking and supporting dino and his tools.
I try to bring some well deserved credit to a prior carpenter who is driving and forcing the market for a chance.
BTW, He just received his second patent.
Are you going to talk about it?
Or wait another 15 years when his patent is expired?
Way to go Justin.
david.
dino's friend.
I'm not voting unless you put a some are some aren't button up.
The trion jigsaw is not worth the extra cost over the Bosch. It doesn't even have an adjustable speed trigger?!?
Festool jigsaw blades are, however, the best I have ever used. Thicker, sharper, and longer lasting than Bosch... worth every penny.
The TS 55 is excellent. I don't own one, but have logged a lot of cuts on a couple, and wish I had shelled out the extra bucks when I bought a system.
I use the old style guide rails with a TS55 and like the system a lot, especially when I need vacuum pickup, as when cutting Azek or the like.
On the other hand, I couldn't quite bring myself to spring for the 8'+ rail, and I end up using a home-made lauan shoot board with a 30-year-old Milwaukee sidewinder with excellent results.
The Festo shelf-pin-hole tooling has been invaluable: the high-speed routing means that there is no stopping to clear the chips as with a drill and Vix bit -- they’re just gone.
*************************************************
BTW, one of your other posters has a financial interest in this that he refuses to acknowledge:
I challenged davidwood last January when he seemed suspiciously zealous about a competing product.
As a result of those challenges, he has added the cryptic tag, “dino’s friend,” to his posts in a lame attempt to clear his conscience.
Although, of course, most people wouldn't have a clue, if you dig deep enough you’ll find that “Dino” markets a product that competes with Festool, and that davidwood is not just Dino’s “friend,” but that he receives money from Dino for prototype work or the like.
Thus, the more people that buy “Dino’s” products, the more money “dino’s friend” makes. Davidwood has been cruising BT for a long time, inserting infomercials along the way as much as he can.
As I have said many times on BT, I would have no problem with this if he was honest about it. But his sneaky weasel approach leaves me no alternative but to bust him as just that -- a Sneaky Weasel.
And, yeah, Festo makes good tools.
AitchKay
aitchkay said:
On the other hand, I couldn't quite bring myself to spring for the 8'+ rail, and I end up using a home-made lauan shoot board with a 30-year-old Milwaukee sidewinder with excellent results.
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Why not get a smaller rail and connect 2 pieces?
My affiliation with Dino and eurekazone was very limited without any money received for services.
I made few prototypes for him and he made a custom cutting station from my machine shop. We cut plastic sheets and aluminum into small pieces. A very dangerous task before we was introduced to the Dead Wood Concept.
You can call me whatever you like but your post is very reviling and helpful. After spending $500.00 you're forced to:
A. Use a homemade shooting board.
B. Buy an 8'-oo" aluminum guide for another $300-$400
( because you now very well that your smaller section is impossible to align to an additional $70.00 section)
C. Attack dino and me.
If you had a self aligning connection system on your existing small rail, there was no reason for you not to extend your "system" with few dollars instead of few hundred.
I posted here to set the record straight and give some credit to a carpenter who just received his second
patent about the repeaters and the self aligning connection system.
I can see why you're upset with me.
Human nature.
david.
dino's friend.
I use a plungesaw and short/long guides. Have been very happy with the results. I havn't used other systems so can't compare and won't try to. For me, I would rather buy once than 3 times even if the cost upfront is higher.
There is a bit of a learning curve though I will admit. I thought it would be very intuitive and mostly it is. However with the festool guides, unless using the new parallel guide system, after you mark the cut line, it is important to register from the good side of the line.
This puts the kerf on the waste side of the line. I'm maybe not the smartest knife in the drawer - I blew the first few cuts. This method is only useful if the "good" width is close to the width of the track.
Mark
I voted yes even though I don't believe all of the tools represent value in their respective category. As a contractor I feel they are "single master" tools - not for general crew use.
I own the jigsaw(5 years) and the midsize router(4 years). I own an EZ-Guide as well as some Harbor Freight power tools.
A pebble in my shoe is the FHB Jigsaw test the Festool scored best but the Bosch was chosen the "Best" because it had (has) spring loaded, blade ejection. I let my subscription run out after that one.
Holy cow, at times while reading some of the comments on here, I actually thought I was listening to my children bicker back and forth.
Yes Festool is worth the money. Unlike other tool manufacturers like DeWalt (who bought and ruined most of the others) they're still interested in making a quality tool instead of cheap tools that they can sell at Home Depot so everyone and their sister can own "professional" tools. There's also no wondering if this year the tool is made in Mexico or China or what brand you should buy next year when this one breaks.
That being said, what I would really like to see is a new US tool company that makes all their stuff here to compete with Festool and put all the other garbage manufacturers out of business.
I just bought the Rotex 125 after much research and angst. I had a commercial refinishing job where I had to remove finish and stain on a lot of oak and refinish to match new furniture. The sander was unbelievable. My old Milwaukee 6" RO sander finally "bit the dust" and I had to replace it. So while I've been drooling over the domino for a long time, I needed the sander. After figuring out the difference in the various sandpaper types(!!), I ordered enough to get the job done, (50 grit through 180). Best part about it was that there was virtually no dust in my shop when done. That was fabulous. apart from that, it's like having 2 sanders for the price of ..well 2 sanders!! I actually ended up taking off the varnish with an aggressive belt sander, and completing the removal with the Rotex. I also own the TS55, the cross cut table, the early generation drill, mini-vac and saw guides. I do a fair amount of built ins and finish carpentry. I wouldn't be without any of them, while the drill is probably the easiest to be replaced by another manufacturer. For me, 5 stars out of 5.
I'm a professional finish carpenter. When I first heard about Festool products, they sounded like gee-whiz-great-but-overpriced tools.
I finally got myself into an older ATF55 circular saw and OF1000 router through a screaming deal in an online auction. And, once I took the plunge, and saw the incredible utility, I'll never ever turn back!
The tools I bought used were more than ten years old already, and I've been using them for three, and they are in great shape. It took a while for me to get the courage up to buy an 8' guide rail, but it paid for itself on one job.
I'll soon be reselling my saw to upgrade to one of the new big ones.
Lastly, in addition to saving you time(=money), the are a pleasure to use every day and always make a good impression on clients.
I needed to replace my table saw recently and the TS55 tracksaw system intrigued me. I work mostly solo, so using a tablesaw for plywood, etc, is a constant challenge. Like everyone else, the price of the Festool products requires one to do some serious research and deliberation, but with sites like this as a guide I went out and bought the TS55 last week. I've used it for a couple of days now and all I can say is I'm really, really ticked off that I didn't buy this thing a long time ago, it would have saved me a lot of grief, hassle, and bad cuts. Though I had never used a plunge- or tracksaw before, It only took a few cuts to recognize there was real substance behind Festool's high prices, that you were getting some serious value for your money. I take care of my tools, and when I imagine myself looking at my TS55 ten years from now after 1000s of cuts, and thinking whether the $500 was worth the money, the answer will be pretty obvious.
Can't vote yes or no because not all festools are a yes ...
i have or have used them all and here are my thoughts on the yes/no issue (i do cabinetry,furniture and finish work ...) i use two of the festool dust collection units and while pricey, give them both a "yes"
domino -- YES! (why i made the festool plunge and no regrets)
random orbital sanders -- YES
circular saw and guiderail -- YES
Kapex -- YES (even at the price ... surprised me too)
cordless drill -- no (as good or better for cheaper)
jig saw -- no (to do over i'd get the cheaper bosch)
trim router -- NO (way too expensive, complicated and limited in use
sortainers -- no (much cheaper alternatives)
I first bought the TS55 with 2 short guide rails with the joints to make a rail over 8'-0" long, and quick clamps. On the first job, I used it to cut some doors for length. I measured, marked, laid the guide on the marks without the clamps, hooked up the vac, cut, and the guide never moved! I then tried leaving sawdust on a door and laid the guide on the sawdust just to see what it would do. Still never moved! I've never used the clamps! I am completely sold on this system. A beautiful finsh cut.
Next, I was building a kitchen and needed to sand all the panels, seal and sand again and so on. I am just a small operation, and I share shop space with my wife who teaches classes for every handwork craft under the sun. My old PC sander's dust collection was not performing wellm and I thought it was just because it was old and tired. So I went to my local Woodcraft to get a new one. While there, I looked at the Festool 125. But, since it was $170 and the PC was $80, I bought another PC and started sanding. Dust everywhere, even with the vac going and Air Cleaner running full blast! So, I spent an hour or two cleaning up all the dust, and went back and got the Festool for $170, and some Cristal sanding disks. Came back, hooked up the vac, and started sanding. No dust! Very little vibration! The sander stops almost instantly! When I finish a panel and set the sander aside with the vac running, the sander just sits there and hugs the table; it doesn't fall over, or fall off the table, just holds itself to the table with the suction! And the sander is super stable, very easy to sand a very flat panel. I try sanding panel edges; no round overed edges like before with the PC. This is one great tool!
A friend has the Kapex. $1300 is a lot of money, and I already have 2 sliding compaound saws, so it's hard to justify, but again, that is one beatiful saw! Features I don't see on any other tool.
I listen to the other posts on this forum, and wonder about the jigsaw router and domino, but for the 2 tools I have at this point, the Festools are worth every penny.
I voted yes, but like others it is not a blanket vote. I like the new drill, but it the price is just too high. I might buy one if I did not already have 5 drills. I have a two sanders, RO 125 FEQ Rotex and ETS 125 EQ, and a CT MIDI vacuum. Bought the RO 125 new, and a bit later the 5" Abrasives Assortment Systainer, but the others were used. If they had not been used and the same size sander (5") I am not sure I would have bought them. However the real value of Festool comes to light the more you get. All the boxes snap one on the other and live on the vacuum, this is both a space saver and a time saver. When I need to sand, I can pick the stack up and all I need is right there. And as more and more tools are dropping in quality, Festools seem to keep that very high level of quality.
Hi All our work is in down town Philadelphia where every job is custom and tight to work in. Were lucky if we can park in front of the job let alone on the same street. Most of the Miter’s are good enough to cut framing to crown with a simple blade change. It’s just comes down to your work environment and needs.
I don’t care if it’s 12 slider Dewalt or Bosch or even the bigger and heavier Milwaukee.
Come to think of it I personally preferred the Milwaukee for ease and accuracy which was dead on. It really is an excellent saw for a shop, but way to big and heavy to move around on a daily bases. It even has excellent dust collection with out a vacuum.
I wish the make a 10” version that’s under 50lbs. I would switch all over again.
Think of the American motto ...Bigger is Better. Look at our saws. How often do you really find yourself needing a 67lbs 12” slide in the field.
Hens our ridiculous over sized under functional pick up trucks. Festool represents a European life style. Simple, well thought out and not obnoxious.
If our business required a daily use of miter saw I would have a two Kapex. It is the lightest, smallest, accurate, and most capable saw on the market. I think a few improvements are needed since it barley cuts a 4x4, alternative blades, dust bag for when you do need / want the vac and definitely a price check. I think $700-800 is fair price. And what’s with deal used Festy’s selling for about 10% less then retail?? Are you stupid it’s still used. They do have a nice UG Cart to move it around, but I think the extension wings are a bit narrow so your better off making your own. Check out Al at multiblades.com. He has excellent products.
Some of my Festool collection:
1400 router hardly used at picked up on craigslist for $200. Very nice and dust collection works perfect. I love the bit changer. That alone is worth the $475 retail.
Festy tracks because they have a great accessories that really make the fussy jobs easier. Makita plunge. They’re almost identical and works perfect. Picked it up refurbished for $225. I just couldn’t bare to spend $575 for the same results. So what the Makita cord comes in 8ft long. It takes about 20min to change out to a 12ft or add a extension. The dust port / collection is just as good as the Festy.
ct 26 which again is more expensive the Dewalts but you have to love the fact that you can stack track saw and router systainers on to it and wheel it down the street. And yes the Makita plunge saw box fits right in. It’s the same exact box as Festy.
Yannis N. Tsakiris
http://www.citydecksinc.com
http://www.citypropertiesinc.net
Hi, Ive just bought a Festool RO125 Rotex Sander which is my only Festool tool. To be honest I love it. Its by far the best sander I have got/'used.
The majority of my tools are Bosch, although I do have others, Dewalt, Makita, Milwaukee, Fein,Hitachi (the list goes on), and they are all great tools.
In a word, I would definitely pay the extra for a quality tool as the saying goes, 'you get waht you pay for' , and in MOST cases this is true, but I do tend to research the tools on the internet to see what 'ordinary' people say about them, not just what the manufacturers and retail people want you to hear.
Its not worth the money. I have a German made dual mode sander from Bosch that is the same as the Rotex. I own a Makita, Made in the USA, 7 1/2" Compound Miter saw that is lighter, smaller, and more accurate than the Kapex. I buy quality, tools made prospectively in Germany, USA, and Japan, and cannot see the difference in my tools vs. the Festools. I have been using my Fein, tool actuated vacuum and Fein tools for over ten years, they are made in Germany, or Italy, and last Forever. Why would I pay three to Four times as much for the same thing? I think the Kapex is awful. The track saw seems awesome, but Dewalt does make on for about a fourth of the price, so the question beckons............
Is it worth it? I say NO! I think for people who go from Skil to Festool, they are blown away, but for people like me, it seems like expensive redundancy .
For all of those guys who wrote that they have a German tool because it is a Bosch, a USA made tool because it is DeWalt or Milwaulkee, a Japanese made too because it is Makita... TRY READING THE LABEL ON YOUR TOOL!
Just because it has a German, Japanese, or "American" name does NOT mean that it was made in that country... In fact FEW power tools are still made in the USA. The closest thing that you can get to American made would be Mexico.
Most of the power tools that we see for sale in the US are made in in Asia, or Mexico... This includes high-end stationary tools such as Delta, Powermatic and Jet.
Delta has some table saws that they tout are "Assembled in the U.S.A." Key word, ASSEMBLED. If you look at the fine print you will find that the parts still come from China.
I am not saying any of these brands are OK, I am saying they are NOT from the countries that their name 'sounds like'.
I am seeing good result from Bosch, it is really the best brand, I will say.
I am seeing good result from Bosch, it is really the best brand, I will say.