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News

Menards and Home Depot Sued over a 4×4

4x4s are only 3.5 inches on a side — but does everyone know?

By Michael Moran Alterio
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It’s in Wikipedia’s definition of a 2×4: “Two-by-four, a common size of dimensional lumber named for its unprocessed dimensions, usually measuring 1½ × 3½ inches in practice.”

But it seems that the plaintiffs in a class-action lawsuit were confused by this common practice — and evidently materially damaged — and are seeking redress in court.

McGuire Law of Chicago is representing three plaintiffs in federal court for the Northern District of Illinois, as detailed in a June 21, 2017, report in the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel. The big-box lumber dealers named in the suit are Home Depot and Menards.

A person quoted in the Journal Sentinel report was amazed and thinks the plaintiffs have no leg to stand on. “My God, that’s crazy,” the 60-year-old bulldozer operator said of the lawsuits. “Let me on the jury. They ain’t winning. And they’re gonna pay me extra for my time.”

On Twitter, the comments are equally amazed, though more earthy in their language:

A 4×4 applied directly to the forehead might cures what ails the plaintiff’s attorney in this case!?#TCOT #MAGA #WOW https://t.co/txjwZaLRfs

— Nate Nelson (@NateMFNelson) June 21, 2017

so a guy is suing Menards because a 4×4 isn’t exactly a 4″ by 4″. Stupid people are in fact stupid

— The Dude (@WoodWhisperers) June 21, 2017

MENARDS’ 4×4’s ARE ACTUALLY 3.5×3.5’s IM SCREAMING

— Maddy? (@frickoff_) June 22, 2017

Just because it says 4×4 doesn’t mean it’s so. And just because they say man bun, it does not mean you’re a man.

— Cory Myers (@cjmyers963) June 22, 2017

And those are just the ones we can print in a family publication.

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  1. b_ward | Jun 22, 2017 06:59pm | #1

    Last year wasn't it Lowes that got sued by some moron, and lost, for selling 1.5 x 3.5s and had the audacity to call them 2 x 4s. Oh, the suffering the fool must have endured.
    Now you see stupid things like a pencil whose length is 6.378 inches.

  2. JLM_in_AK | Jun 22, 2017 08:34pm | #2

    Oh crap. Just wait until they discover there really aren't 16 penneys in that nail....

  3. RussMill | Jun 24, 2017 01:25pm | #3

    Yep, lowes paid out on the same suit, Their website is screwed up now!!!

  4. EddyWouldGo | Jun 26, 2017 05:53pm | #4

    to quote John McEnroe: You cannot be serious.

  5. JohnGuzz | Jun 26, 2017 06:19pm | #5

    Better sue the whole construction industry for telling their clients that walls are built with 2x4's while you're at it.
    Who is there in the world who does not understand the "NOMINAL" dimension system that has been in use in construction since practically forever?

  6. mlv2 | Jun 26, 2017 06:19pm | #6

    This is why those who lose these types of lawsuits should have to pay all legal fees and court costs, as is done in Europe. Hopefully HD will have more backbone than Lowes, who paid 1.6M, mostly to the plaintiff attorneys.

  7. KnotRough | Jun 26, 2017 06:19pm | #7

    Sounds to me the lawyers found (ummm..."bought"....sshhhhhh) three fools to bring forth this lawsuit against Home Depot and Menards.

  8. buzzell | Jun 26, 2017 06:35pm | #8

    This is obviously another scam by attorneys and trolls to get something for nothing, by tying up people who actually work for something. They should be fined for nuisance, made to pay court-costs and damages to the plaintiffs and then horsewhipped in the town square.

    When are we going to get serious with these people who are parasitic to society? Make is so painful they and others will never consider wasting everyone's time with their self-seeking crap again.

  9. CT_Yankee | Jun 26, 2017 07:23pm | #9

    This is as stupid as a class-action lawsuit many years
    ago about the size of computer monitors (CRTs).

    Anyone familiar with CRT monitors know that the actual visible measure was less than what the actual CRT measured. I (foolishly) signed on to that action - my award? A $5 or $10 coupon good against the purchase of a new monitor. Yippee! The plaintiff's attorneys made million$, the manufacturers got a bump in sales to offset the award costs, and the consumer got to spend money to receive their award.

    I started in construction in 1969. At that time the ACTUAL size of a 4x4 measured 3-5/8" x 3-5/8". As time went on and surfaced lumber became more common, it was reduced to 3-1/2" x 3-1/2". Every source of technical data on lumber published charts listing the nominal size and then the actual dimensions.

    To me, this is nothing more than a law firm out to make serious $$$ on a totally frivolous suit.

  10. user-6322543 | Jun 26, 2017 08:51pm | #10

    https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/misc/miscpub_6409.pdf

    01 Nov 1963. 53 years.

  11. Shoprocket | Jun 26, 2017 08:51pm | #11

    When I was a little kid about 8 years old, about 55 years ago, I wanted to build a wooden project that required an exact width of say 6 or 8 inches from some leftover material from Pop's doghouse project. I couldn't understand why all the scraps were narrower than what I thought was a 1x6 or 1x8. Then my mom explained trade size dimensions to me. Well educated, she was! Trade size dimensions don't affect only construction lumber, it also creates variation in electrical conduit and plumbing pipe. I suppose when, or if, these weekend wood butchers get to the point of plumbing their project, or doing electrical work requiring conduit, they'll be on the phone to their legal shysters wanting to start another lawsuit that will cost everyone going to their local building supply because of the difference between nominal dimension and actual pipe size. I hope the project these people are buying the lumber for requires a building permit. Just hoping the inspector finds out about this lawsuit and never passes anything these fools are doing.

  12. BigNiez | Jun 26, 2017 08:53pm | #12

    From someone who has been in the business since 1962, this is just another example of how stupid, money hungry, greedy some attorneys are. The standard for 4 x 4 at 3-1/2" x 3-1/2" has been around since the late '70s. "What do you throw a lawyer who is droning? An anvil attached to his partners." That makes more sense than this law suit.

  13. redlinehc | Jun 26, 2017 10:37pm | #13

    I hope that it goes to court.
    And when found out to be the dumbest case presented, the judge should make the plaintiffs pay for all legal cost for all parties involved as well as restitution to Home Depot and Menards for determination of character.

  14. MLinPA | Jun 27, 2017 08:37am | #14

    Ignorance is no defense... or offense.

    Almost every jurisdiction has prohibitions against frivolous lawsuits.

  15. KnotRough | Jun 27, 2017 08:50am | #15

    Let's see....copper wiring isn't the diameter of stated sizes... 10 gauge is supposed to be 2.58826 mm but mics out at 2.54 mm.
    Ceramic tiles are not what's usually advertised ie: 12 " x 12" tiles are basically 11 1/2" allowing a 1/4" grout line.
    And the list goes on and on.
    Watch out supply houses...they're coming for you !!!!!
    Now if only I could buy a quarter pound hamburger that that the patty actually weighs a quarter pound....damn!

  16. nealclements | Jun 27, 2017 09:27am | #16

    My father worked at a small hardware store while he was in high school and college. A guy came in with some calipers and said, "These 1/4" bolts aren't 1/4". They're only 235 thousandths." My father replied, "That's ok...we have nuts to fit them." One more thought. From a legal perspective, wouldn't something need to be labeled a 4"x4" to claim this type of nonsense? Without the 'inch' designation, how do we know 4x4 isn't just a model #? How do we know it isn't a 4-wheel drive vehicle? Its just so confusing... :)

  17. user-5132050 | Jun 27, 2017 10:43am | #17

    Seriously? If I have to start calling them 3.5 x 3.5s, someone, besides Home Depot or Menard's, is getting slapped with a law suit. Sigh.

  18. user-5351280 | Jun 27, 2017 11:43am | #18

    "Determination of character" Heh.

  19. CT_Yankee | Jun 27, 2017 04:28pm | #19

    I have often heard the comment (once from a judge) that "Ignorance of the Law is no excuse."

    In construction and in some industries nominal sizes are commonly used. Actual dimensions are often slightly different. Those nominal sizes evolved from very logical reasons.

    The mechanics of a sawmill are such that lumber sawing, specifically the width or thickness, is based on integer increments from center of sawcut to center of sawcut. The blade has width, so with each pass of the blade wood is lost from each piece being sawn.

    This has been industry practice for decades.

    If ignorance of common industry industry practice is now an acceptable reason to allege that you've been damaged, then what about Ignorance of the Law?

    If I claim that I did not know that exceeding the speed limit was illegal, can I sue because I was financially damaged by the fine imposed when I was caught?

    Next, the lumber industry will be sued because a Board Foot does not actually contain 144 cubic inches of wood, since a Board Foot is defined as a unit of wood that is NOMINALLY 1 x 12 x 1 foot.

  20. BobBurke | Jun 27, 2017 10:50pm | #20

    Okay, by their logic if the lumber is supposed to be 96" inches length and it only measures 95 15/16" is that also cause for a lawsuit??? It boils down to selfish people wanting something for nothing.

  21. S_curvy | Jun 28, 2017 06:22pm | #21

    Well, aside from "actual" vs. "nominal" positions debated here, and the talk of greedy lawyers, maybe we should dig a bit deeper. HD & Lowe's are the obvious deep pockets and most efficient defendents here, but the real culprits behind the confusion are the sawmills.

    As greed is discussed, why not consider the greed of the mills who actively sell the mislabeled products in the first place? The very nature of "nominal" means that something isn't really what it claims to be, and this is the crux -- common knowledge is one thing that happens to be a passive or even happen-chance activity, whereas a planned and ongoing mislabeling for the sake of profit is another "active" activity that speaks to a much higher level of will and knowledge.

    For example, if this minor mislabeling is so trivial to anyone who knows anything, then why won't the mills correctly label their products? Why do they burden the consumers with keeping up with their lazy and changing ways? Could it be because they would then have to sell each stick for 87.5% of what they currently fetch? Oh yeah, that would be a 12.5% drop in revenue. Of course, that loss could be offset by a 12.5% increase in the retail price, but that would not be very popular with the consumers.

    Lastly, I for one am very irritated with this industry practice because not so long ago, 2x4's measured 1-5/8" x 3-5/8" and currently measure out to the nearest .5". Plywoods are even worse in terms of the frequency of their magic shrinking properties. In the end, the shrinking lumber is also decreasing in quality, so these combined effects mean that we need to revisit more structural tables/calculations/situations and this all costs real money that we must pass along to our clients.

    Clearly, the idiocy of the actual vs. nominal reality of the products has been ignored by the manufacturers -- their message to the rest of us is "too bad, suck it up." Sometimes it takes a lawsuit to establish that the wink & a nod for a product is no good, that it needs to end.

  22. Robert Bryant | Jul 04, 2017 10:59am | #22

    quick, what is a square foot in metric? logic anyone? so what if a 4x4 is really a 3 1/2 x 3 1/2 ? go figure... ( we have calculators for this now)... remember, keep it simple , smart guy...go figure, again.

  23. ThomasMaloney | Jul 25, 2017 12:26am | #23

    It is absurd to know that people are willing to cause trouble to others just for the sake of making money. Does the short change of dimensions affect his unit badly like causing a negative impact on his living conditions or his business of any sort? If there really isn't such a genuine case, then his lawsuit is nothing but a joke if you were to ask me. I guess in the future, they need to call it 3.5x3.5 to avoid any unnecessary trouble.

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