What Is a Deep Energy Retrofit?

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This podcast is the first course in our three-course Deep Energy Retrofit meal:

The Appetizer (served with a cocktail, of course), where we introduce and define the concept of the deep energy retrofit: What a deep energy retrofit is, and what it looks like.

The Main Course, with the most nutrients, where we discuss how to deal with the building envelope: How to approach a deep energy retrofit and how to manage a client’s monetary expectations.

The Dessert, consisting of HVAC systems, and a song for your studio (dinner music).

OFFICIAL TRANSCRIPT

Chris: Hey, everybody, welcome to the Green Architects’ Lounge podcast, I’m your host, Chris Briley.

Phil: I’m your host, Phil Kaplan. Hi, Chris!

C: Hi, Phil, how’re you doin’?

P: I’m doin’ great today.

C: Excellent. What’re we talking about?

P: I’m glad you asked that. Today’s topic is deep energy retrofits.

C: Excellent. I have to know, because we get listener mail—one day we’ll read the funny ones and the ones that point out how wrong we are at times…

P: And at the very least, your responses are funny.

C: Right. Well, actually I try to be, although I don’t really try too hard because it’s the middle of the workday… The farthest we’ve gotten so far is from Costa Rica, so we are going international.

P: That is very cool. What does a deep energy retrofit look like in Costa Rica?

C: Well, I don’t know. The gal who asked me that—I don’t have her name—anyways, she was talking about warm climates, and I said, ‘Hey, we’re not really experts in that,’ but she thought our lack of knowledge of Horchata was funny.

P: So, you want to tell us this lovely drink you’ve made for us?

C: Oh yeah, let’s get right to it. Now this is the sidecar. A sidecar is an old-timey sort of thing. No one knows the origins—actually, someone knows the origins, but I don’t. But apparently some bar somewhere made it for this guy who brought his date in the sidecar of his motorcycle. That’s the legend; I don’t know. Rediscover this drink everybody, because it’s great!

P: I concur! This is my first—although, I must have had this before, but I don’t remember it.

C: I’ve had a sidecar renaissance these last few months. I think it’s because spring is coming; I’m getting out the lemons. So here we go: My sidecar is 2 ounces of cognac… Actually, I just pour the stuff in the shaker at the proportions I think are right.

P: You did it perfectly.

C: But officially, it’s 2 ounces of cognac, half an ounce of cointreau, 1 ounce of lemon juice—fresh lemon juice, guys, don’t just… Get a real lemon, cut it up.

P: Not one of those plastic things where you unscrew the top.

C: Yeah, that’s like two years old and someone used it for fish once. Then you stick it in a shaker with lots of ice and shake that sucker. Make it really cold, then pour it in—it’s nice and foggy like a martini. But Mr. Boston says to use brandy and triple sec…

P: Mr. Boston’s Official Bartenders and Party Guide!

C: Phil’s lending that to me, right?

P: I’m a little disappointed that you didn’t actually own a copy… Chris, remember where your Sweets catalog used to sit?

C: Yeah, I’m going to order 12 volumes of that and just put it over there.

P: Does anyone still use their Sweets? I’m serious, if anyone out there still uses their Sweets, email us! I’m very curious. I know they have a digital version now…

C: And you can email us at [email protected]. Like I’ve promised in every episode, one day we’ll have a real website, and a domain and all that jazz. The reason we haven’t jumped on it is because we found a nice home at Green Building Advisor, which is greenbuildingadvisor.com, so a shout-out to those people… We’re syndicated! We’re not sponsored, but we’re syndicated.

P: That counts for something, doesn’t it?

C: It does, it does.

P: Those are good guys.

C: They’re great guys. I’m honored to be with them. So, let’s get to it: the deep energy retrofit. Phil, what the heck is a deep energy retrofit?

P: That’s a great question. You know, I wonder if this term has gotten out…

C: It has.

P: Enough?

C: Well, we’re plugged in…

P: We’re plugged in, but I don’t think the general public knows what a deep energy retrofit is. I think it’s coming, though. I think people are going to start hearing this more and more… People have heard weatherization—you know, you’re going to weatherize your home. It’s a great thing. This is beyond weatherization. This is taking it the next step; this is kicking it up two, three, four notches.

C: I would dare say it’s being macho. We’re going to be macho with our renovation. We’re not just renovating, we’re not just adding something to something here, or we’re not just weatherizing—we’re saying, screw this oil. I’m seeing the future and it is high-priced oil. I’m going to invest in my house, and I’m going to do it in a smart way. I’m going to go deep energy, buddy. Deep.

P: This is like B.A. Baracus…

C: That’s right, pull up the van and we’re hoppin in! Can we put the A-Team theme in? All right!

[theme music plays]

P: So, how do you define it? Well, people have not completely agreed about this. The percentage has been about 50%, which tends to be commonly talked about, and people say about 70% energy reduction…

C: Right, energy reduction from what you’re using now, then you’re technically defined—well, not even technically—but you’re loosely defined as a deep energy retrofit. But basically—as architects, if our client comes to us and says, “I’m going to do it, guys, I’m going to not only retrofit or renovate, but I’m going deep into this thing,” then we sit down and talk about [unintelligible].

P: Right. And one of the things they should realize is this is their energy—not just thermally speaking, but electricity, how they really have to change their living patterns, that they really have to think carefully about how they live; this is not just insulation. You really want to do it properly.

C: It’s a journey, isn’t it? It’s a spiritual journey.

P: It’s a commitment!

C: It is a commitment.

P: I don’t know about B.A. Baracus taking a spiritual journey.

C: No, he’s not gonna do that. He’s just gonna load up and go, buddy. He’s going to turn the van into an armored thing—

P: Filled with ammo.

C: Filled with ammo, and they won’t hurt a single soul. But they’re going to shoot up a town, and everyone’s going to get out safely. All right, we’re role playing, and I’m the client, and I say, “Phil, I’m gonna go deep. What do I do, what’s my strategy? What’s the first thing I do?”

P: Well, when we talk about deep energy retrofits, we’re still talking about doing the same thing as we do in new construction. It’s the big three.

C: Oh, we’re doing that again?

P: It’s the big three! You’re going to add insulation, air sealing, and doors and windows. It’s the same thing. But here’s the difference: It’s different every time in a remodel.

C: Right. You’re dealing with what’s existing. So, your response to that guy is, “Well, that depends; what do you got?” Then you gotta sit down and figure out your goals. Like how much are you going to really do? How serious is this dude that you’re talking to who’s your client? And he’s like, “Oh, I’m going off the grid.” And you’re like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa buddy—are you already on the grid?” “Well, yeah.” “Dude, let’s not go that far, let’s work with what you got…”

P: Right. Tell me how much you want to spend. What are your priorities here? And then there’s the big question: When does it make sense to do certain things? Or, there’s no turning back—you gotta do it now. Some things you can phase, you can do piecemeal; other things, it just doesn’t make sense. Bad investment.

C: Like your foundation or your basement, or something like that. Or—I’m jumping all over the place—your siding, your envelope. If you’re affecting your envelope, you gotta seal it back up—well, here’s your chance, right?

P: Well, let’s skip a little bit ahead cause I think that’s where we’re going. When it comes to cost and deciding what we’re going to do, when do you do a deep energy retrofit? Well, a great time to do it is if you’re going to replace your windows or your siding. You’re going to get one chance every 20, every 40 years in the best case. Once you do that, you’re not going to replace your siding again in a couple years, and you’re like, “Oh, I should I have done that before energy prices tripled again! I should have known!”

C: I should have listened to those podcast guys, those clowns!

P: Those geniuses!

C: I thought they were clowns…

P: And now you know better.

C: So that’s the time you really do it; there’s no turning back. When one of those things happens—you have to replace your windows or your siding…

P: It’s soul-searching time. I’m opening this up and I’m affecting the R-value. And now I’m investing, and how much do I invest?

C: If we’ve decided that we’re committed to a deep energy retrofit, then we’re looking to get at least R-40 in the walls, probably, right?

P: R-40 in the walls, R-60 in the roof. Same thing we’ve been talking about, Chris. Same thing in new buildings. R-40, R-60—in the slab, it’d be nice to get R-20, R-10 if you can. We’re talking about real cold climates here—we’re in Maine. You can knock it down a bit. Do your energy model. Don’t just listen to us.

C: Exactly. And isn’t that the first step, even with a deep energy retrofit—maybe even especially with a deep energy retrofit. You’ve gotta deal with what you’ve got existing. In almost every case, we’re going to be renovating; you’re changing something for the better anyway, design-wise. You might be increasing a living room, or adding something-something, whatever. But we’re also going to examine how your house performs now and where it needs the most help—even though we know we’re going to be modifying some things. But we also can then—given the shape your house is going to have when we’re done, we can actually add R-values and calculate using an energy model what your consumption is going to be, and we can start playing the what-if game. Well, what if you had R-50 walls; how much does that save? Or what if you had R-60? Because, you’ll kind of hit a point of diminishing returns, or a point when you’re like, “OK, I’ve spent enough on this area.” Or maybe you haven’t. Maybe you’ll just go until you walk in and start sweating from your own body heat. Crack the window in the middle of winter…

P: You’re absolutely right. Energy models open people’s eyes. When they see the blower door go in and they can feel air rushing through their house, and then they see it on paper. You mean if this thing proposed R-40—it sounds like a lot to me, but if you’re telling me I can save X number of dollars a year… I can feel the air rushing through these parts of my house; this is terrifying to me.

C: And it should be!

P: Yeah, it’s a really good tangible way to understand what’s going on and what we’re trying to do with a deep energy retrofit.

C: And at that point you can sit down with the energy modeler—or the model if you do this step yourself— andyou can say to your clients, “Look. if we got your infiltration rate down to X and we got the R-value of your walls and your roof and your foundation down to X, then you’d be spending—and if gas or oil prices stayed at this level—you’ll spend X and you’ll save Y. And then, BOOM. Now it’s not like pie in the sky dreaming, it’s not greenwashing, it’s not….. we’ve taken all of the feelings out of it; it’s now science. Isn’t that great?

P: It’s science! It’s not, “You have to believe me, I’m trying to sell my ideas.” There’s no selling. It sells itself. And we’re doing the right thing. It feels good. I gotta say, it feels good when you put it out like that. Always start with an energy model.

C: You want to start talking nuts and bolts. How do we want to open up somebody’s house?

P: Number one: Use neither nuts nor bolts.

C: Dude, my nuts-and-bolts house, you don’t think that’s gonna market well? It’s a spec house made from nothing by nuts and bolts. And washers.

P: That’s cool. You can disassemble it, so it can go back into the earth. It’s a wonderful thing. But the thermal bridging, Chris—how long are your bolts?

C: Well, that’s a rather personal question, isn’t it? All right, Sheila’s blushing. Now she’s glaring.

P: You still pay attention to Sheila’s glares? I don’t notice them anymore.

C: She can be intimidating at times. Other times, she’s a ray of sunshine.

P: She’s always a ray of sunshine.

C: She keeps this thing together, or otherwise, we’d never meet.

P: All right, there’s a couple of types of construction more difficult than others. Some are easier than others. Well, what I want to say is it’s incredibly important for us to understand our existing building stock and how to improve it. We know how to do the new stuff now. We know how to build the superinsulated—

C: We’re done. We don’t need to talk about that now. Thank you very much, everybody, it’s been a great podcast… No, I’m sorry Phil. You were saying?

P: I can’t remember what I was saying.

C: Your building stock, so we’ve got different types…

P: So, the most important thing we have to do is figure out how to use all these existing structures that we’ve got. That’s the greenest thing to do.

C: Exactly. The act of architecture itself is not very green.

P: Even if it costs the same. How about that? That’s kind of a risk to say. What, you’re going to take this old house and leave the old crummy guts of it? Well, maybe! As long as you get everything else comfortable and working really well. You don’t have to say it’s much cheaper doing it the other way, because I think there’s a lot of value in dealing with what’s there.

C: Before we get too far into this, I want to dispel a myth.

P: M-I-

C: Dispel, not MISspell—the myth that a renovation is cheaper. You know how many times I’ve had clients, renovation-type clients think…

P: …they’re saving money

C: Yeah, I’m gonna save money. But I tell you, if you play the square foot cost game—which you don’t like to do—but if you did that, boy howdy, you’d blow your brains out. Wow, that’s graphic. Why’d I say that? You’d blow your mind is what I was going to say.

P: You’ve still got the B.A. Baracus attitude.

C: That must be what it is

P: Remember, nobody gets hurt on the A-Team!

C: I know. Helicopter’s somehow crashed in the mountains, and the guys, they’re fine; somehow they bailed out.

P: No brains blown!

C: No, thank goodness. Anyway, when you’re doing a deep energy retrofit, let’s be serious: We’re talking about incurring costs that are akin to new construction. I mean, you’re going to look at your house as your assets—as what you have that you can save and use, and use that to save money. You’re going to look at it that way, but the stuff you’re adding to it—you’re going to add about as much as you would for a new house. Sometimes it’s even more because you’ve gotta rip stuff off first and you have to adjust your design for field conditions. And for an architect, I have to go in and measure with precision what’s already there.

P: Yeah, it’s a puzzle. We gotta think it, and thinking is hard.

C: Oh darn!

P: But we get paid the big bucks…

So that’s it for this part of the episode. Tune in next week for more of the Green Architects’ Lounge podcast. A quick reminder, our music is Zelda’s Theme by Perez Prado. And our views and our drinking habits do not necessarily reflect Green Building Advisor. Thanks for tuning in, everyone, and keep up the good work.

GALep7-DeepEnergyRetrofitGBA1.mp3

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Previously published on GreenBuildingAdvisor.com.