FHB Logo Facebook LinkedIn Email Pinterest Twitter X Instagram Tiktok YouTube Plus Icon Close Icon Navigation Search Icon Navigation Search Icon Arrow Down Icon Video Guide Icon Article Guide Icon Modal Close Icon Guide Search Icon Skip to content
Subscribe
Log In
  • How-To
  • Design
  • Tools & Materials
  • Restoration
  • Videos
  • Blogs
  • Forum
  • Magazine
  • Members
  • FHB House
  • Podcast
Log In
The Fine Homebuilding Podcast

Podcast Episode 182: Greedy Dormers, Cathedral-Ceiling Insulation, and Gutters for EPDM Roofs

This week on the Fine Homebuilding Podcast the gang talks about adding a 2nd floor on a brick bungalow, pros and cons of adding spray-foam to an existing vaulted ceiling, details for a flat porch roof, and more.

By Patrick McCombe, Matthew Millham, Kiley Jacques
  • X
  • facebook
  • linkedin
  • pinterest
  • email
  • add to favorites Log in or Sign up to save your favorite articles
Video Player is loading.
Current Time 0:00
/
Duration 0:00
Loaded: 0%
Stream Type LIVE
Remaining Time -0:00
 
1x
    • Chapters
    • descriptions off, selected
    • captions settings, opens captions settings dialog
    • captions off, selected

      This is a modal window.

      Beginning of dialog window. Escape will cancel and close the window.

      Text
      Background
      Window
      Font Size
      Text Edge Style
      Font Family

      End of dialog window.

      This is a modal window. This modal can be closed by pressing the Escape key or activating the close button.

      This is a modal window. This modal can be closed by pressing the Escape key or activating the close button.

      Follow the Fine Homebuilding Podcast on your favorite app. Subscribe now and don’t miss an episode:

      Watch on YouTube

      Patrick shares some feedback from a timber framer in Maine about what it takes to build a true timber-frame house, before he, Matt, and Kiley address a bunch of remodeling questions. Among the issues covered are: how to attach a wood-framed second-floor addition to solid masonry walls; efficient solutions for ventilating two adjacent bathrooms; whether or not to worry about roof leaks when installing spray foam; the pros and cons of pin footings; and how to install leak-proof, attractive gutters around a low-pitch rubber roof.

       


      Reader Feedback

       

       

      Crawlspace-insulation progress

      insulating my crawlspace
      Joey from outside Boston writes: Thanks for your advice about insulating my crawlspace. At your suggestion, I air-sealed around the rim joists and pulled down the batt insulation from between the floor joists above (only 1 mouse carcass!). I wrapped the walls in 2″ rigid foam. You’d mentioned fasteners in the podcast, but PL foamboard adhesive seemed simpler and appeared to work. I had a hard time fitting rigid foam in the area of the rim joists due to lots of plumbing and electrical intrusions, so opted to reuse some of the more forgiving batt insulation there.

      I should be embarrassed of the messy spray foam job, but this is a barely-2′ high space that anyone would have to shimmy through a window to see, so I’m hoping no one ever does.

      I think I even felt a difference in temperature over the last few cold days of the season. Thanks again.

       

      A timber framer describes hybrid timber-frame house details

      Feedback from Episode 179: Good afternoon Patrick, Matt, And Rob,  Thank you for your informative and interesting podcast, I have learned so much about building science in the past 6 months of listening to your podcast, as well as many back episodes. Your most recent show sparked my interest with the discussion of timber framing, I am a Professional timber framer in the Central Maine area working For Kennebec Timber Framing, we don’t build anything other than timber frames.

      Brett asked a question concerning the difference between Hybrid and “Purely Timber framed” The better term might be hybrid vs Traditional. We build Traditionally. A traditional timber frame uses Mortise and Tenon joinery, is secured with Hardwood pegs and uses no “butt joints” instead uses scarf joinery, Large dovetails, and other “furniture like” connections. Hybrids can still be effective and the price point is generally lower, they often use the large black metal plates, or as you said they can be essentially a stick framed house with timber framed elements.

      A Traditional timber framed house can be Finished off in a few ways, you touched on them but let me elaborate:

      One method is to build a cavity using KD lumber that isn’t load bearing or structural, no need to worry about roof loads or sheer forces, the timber frame is the skeletal system if you will . This cavity is attached to the frame on the exterior and needs to be strong enough to hold up the sheathing, wall finishes, wiring, insulation etc. This exterior shell wouldn’t bump a mortise and tenon structure into the category of a hybrid.

      The other method is with Poly-iso panels, We manufacture and press our own panels in our shop, we have just started using Zip system instead of regular OSB as our panel sheathing which solves the trickiness of panel air sealing. We also rout 2 grooves in the edges of our panels one for expanding spray foam and the other for a spline (our panel system is designed to be attached to a timber frame, not as a stand-alone SIP house).

      I hope my email is helpful to you guys, please check out our Instagram feed @kennebectimberframing (shameless plug) and keep up the good work!

       

       


      Editor Projects

       

      Kiley cleans house: Magic Eraser to the rescue, but no luck removing rust from siding, upcoming retaining wall project

      Matt: Update on his shed​

      Patrick: Working on his truck—new bumper and headlight—but no bugspray​

       

       


      Question 1: Can I vent two bathrooms through one duct?

       

      Ethan writes: FHB Podcast Crew, I’ve got some bath fan questions for you guys… My wife and bought a house a few months ago, a brick ranch, built in 1959. It’s got two bathrooms. One of the bathrooms has window, so there is no bath fan. The second bathroom doesn’t have a window, so there is a bath fan, but it doesn’t even work anymore, and it’s only ducted into the attic anyways. My next project is going to be installing new bath fans in both bathrooms. The bathrooms are right beside each other, and equal distance from the gable end of the house. I’ve attached a plan, section, and photograph for reference. We live about 15 minutes west of Asheville, NC, if that information is helpful.

      Here are my questions:

      1. I really don’t want to punch two new holes in the roof, am I close enough to vent the fans out the gable end
      2. Is there a way I could connect the ducts at some point to only have one penetration in the gable or roof?
      3. If this were your house, how would you install these fans?

      Related links:

      • FanTech 2-Bath Fan

       


      Question 2: How can I attach new roof framing to a solid brick wall?

       

      Austin from  Columbus, Ohio, writes: Hey gang! Love the show. I am an avid listener and a subscriber to the magazine. I started listening last fall after acquiring a 1930 craftsman that’s been vacant for about 12 years.  It’s a total gut job, and I’m looking forward to applying some solid building science and fine homebuilding principles to the project. Because of this project, I’ve become a follower of all things building science: Joe Lstiburek & Christine Williamson at the Building Science Corp, Building Science Podcast, Matt Risinger’s build show, GBA and you guys. I’m in pretty deep. In fact, I’m taking the day off work to go see Steve Baczek while he’s in town next week.

      I’m doing this project myself, and I have a ton of questions I want to ask about my house. But I’ll start with the most immediate: I’ve included a couple of photos. (and yes I know the rafters are undersized and overs-paced–I’ve to plans to deal with that).

      As you can see our house currently has a shed dormer at both the front and back of the house.  Our plans for remodeling this house include expanding both dormers to the full width of the house– “the greedy dormer.”  The dormer walls will bear on the existing exterior walls (on the gable ends that anyway). We do plan on keeping the overhangs all around the house.

      It’s perhaps not the most refined look, but we need the space. It’s a relatively small house and we need every square foot as we have 2 kids already and are beginning the process of becoming foster parents. Plus my wife works from home.

      This would be relatively straightforward project except that the house (other than the dormers) is build of brick.

      My question is: how would you go about building the new dormer walls on top of the brick at the gable ends? (I can hear Patrick “I wouldn’t”) How would I attach a sill plate to the angled brick walls? Use mortar to make a flat but angled surface, then bolt through? That doesn’t seem sturdy to me. The gable is about a 7/12 pitch; the dormer (and new roofline) is 3/12 pitch.

      I’ve read tons of the Taunton “For Pros by Pros” series, but I’ve not been able to find this detail in any books or online anywhere.​

       

       


      Question 3: What should I worry about when retrofitting a vaulted ceiling with spray foam?

       

      Jason from CT writes: We are considering redoing the attic insulation in our home in Fairfield county Connecticut. The house was built in 1958 and we just moved into the house about a year and a half ago. Having lived here through two winters and experiencing much colder temperatures on our second floor (particularly in the master bedroom which had its ceiling vaulted years ago), we realize something must be done to make the space more comfortable and stop burning through so much heating oil in an attempt to get that zone up to temperature (typically targeted for 68-70 degrees). Our original thought was to have the older fiberglass batt insulation above the ceiling replaced with low global warming potential closed cell spray foam in the roof rafters to take advantage of its air and vapor sealing properties but I am hesitant about this method after considering some other factors. Although our roof is fairly new (it is less than 10 years old), I have concerns about detecting problems or even repairing the roof after the spray foam has been applied.

      Also, we are planning some other projects on the second floor, such as redoing the master suite/bathroom, and I believe they could require moving vent lines as we change fixture locations. I would be hesitant to start poking holes in new locations of the spray foam as it could end up negating the sealing properties we are looking to get out of the project. Do you have any insight or recommendation into the use of closed cell spray foam in this application? Should we simply count on annual roof inspections to help spot potential problems before they become big enough to require a fix that involves tearing out the roof sheathing and disturbing the spray foam? Would closed cell foam normally be recommended for our climate zone over open cell foam? Should we be considering our other remodeling projects first in case any additional holes in the roof are needed? Is the attic still the place to start sealing things up or should we focus on replacing the original single pane windows (currently with storm windows year-round)? As additional background info, we would not be doing the spray foam application ourselves but would be hiring outside contractors. The attic space is not used for storage but does house the air handler unit for the second floor cooling zone.

      Apologies for all the questions, thanks so much for the show, I really enjoy listening to all the helpful insights that the team provides.

      Related links:

        • Henri Fennell’s Advice on Cathedral Ceilings
        • Insulating Unvented Roof Assemblies

       


      Question 4: What are the pros and cons of pin foundations?

       

      Mark from Cincinnati, Ohio, writes: Hello, guys. Your podcast is the best! I never miss it. In podcast 175, you discussed helical foundations versus concrete. You did not mention pin foundations that have been in use for many years in the upper Midwest, particularly in Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Michigan. They appear to be affordable, fast, and require little digging. Most importantly, they are supposedly more resistant to frost heave. I plan to use them on a deck I’m going to rebuild later this year. Could you address the pros and cons of these? Thanks!

      Related links:

      • Every Deck Starts with Good Footings
      • It’s Time to Consider Helical-Pile Footings
      • Diamond Pier Foundation Systems

       


      Question 5: What’s the best way to build a hidden gutter around a flat EPDM roof?

       

      Andrew from Ontario writes: Hi all, I’m a homeowner and I have a screened-in, unheated sunporch, approximately 10×20 in size, with a flat roof. The roof was pitched at one time when the porch floor was not properly leveled. After jacking the floor up to fix it, water began to pool on the roof and the roof began to leak. There is an eavestrough (AKA gutter) on three sides of the porch but it isn’t serving its intended purpose because of the pooling.

      Presently the roof is tar and gravel. My plan is to have a contractor remove the roof and decking, re-pitch, and replace with new decking and EPDM. I would like the final roofline to be as clean as possible, eliminating or reducing visibility of the eavestroughs.

      The contractor suggested EPDM, which would wrap over the edge of the roof and terminate in the eavestroughs. My question is: is there a better way to do this, like a kick-out flashing?

      Do you know of something that could serve as a hidden eavestrough in this situation to give a clean modern look? Something like a false aluminum fascia with an internal trough? Or is this something that would have to be custom or site-built?

      Related links:

      • Installing a Low-Slope EPDM Roof
      • EPDM Roofing Systems

       


      KCA Trucker Hat

      #KeepCraftAlive

      Support the trades!

      Buy a #KeepCraftAlive hat or t-shirt!

       

       


      This episode of the podcast is brought to you by Windsor Windows & Doors, Protective Products, LP Outdoor Building Solutions, and Deck Wise

      This episode of the Fine Homebuilding Podcast is brought to you by Windsor Windows & Doors. Put your personal touch on your next home construction or renovation project by using Windsor Windows & Doors. Offering a full line of Wood Clad, Cellular PVC and Vinyl Windows and Doors, our products come in a wide variety of colors, finishes and optional accessories that give you the perfect look to match your home’s style. With our quality construction and industry leading warranty, Windsor Windows & Doors are built to last. Get started on your next project by visiting WindsorWindows.com and find an authorized Windsor distributor near you.

      Also brought to you by Protective Products:
      The nation’s oldest, most trusted, direct-to-you supplier of Surface Protection and Dust Control.  From industry-leading Econo Runner, protection for most hard flooring, to Zipwall, the contractor’s choice for building quick containment areas, Protective Products works with you to keep your jobsites protected and your customers happy.  Show that you care about preserving your quality craftsmanship with their full line of Surface Protection and Dust Control Solutions, see it all at ProtectiveProducts.com.

      And LP Outdoor Building Products:
      Whether you’re looking to add a storage unit or an art studio to your backyard, LP offers beautiful and durable products that can help you turn your shed into a stylish extension of your home. Because at the end of the day, your shed says a lot about who you are. Why not shed it your way? For inspiration and to learn more, visit LPShed.com.

      The Fine Homebuilding Podcast is also brought to you by DeckWise:
      Does your hardwood deck need a makeover? Bring back the luster of the day it was first installed. Let DeckWise reverse time and erase its dullness to make the wood grains burst with natural beauty again. Start with our Wood Cleaner and Brightener and finish with our eco-friendly water-base formula, WiseCoat, or our low VOC Ipe Oil hardwood finish. Protect and preserve your deck to keep it looking brand new this summer! For more info on these products visit DeckWise.com.

       

      We hope you will take advantage of a great offer for our podcast listeners: A special 20% off the discounted rate to subscribe to the Fine Homebuilding print magazine. That link goes to finehomebuilding.com/podoffer.

      The show is driven by our listeners, so please subscribe and rate us on iTunes or Google Play, and if you have any questions you would like us to dig into for a future show, shoot an email our way: [email protected]. Also, be sure to follow Justin Fink and Fine Homebuilding on Instagram, and “like” the magazine on Facebook. Note that you can watch the show above, or on YouTube at the Fine Homebuilding YouTube Channel.

      The Fine Homebuilding Podcast embodies Fine Homebuilding magazine’s commitment to the preservation of craftsmanship and the advancement of home performance in residential construction. The show is an informal but vigorous conversation about the techniques and principles that allow listeners to master their design and building challenges.

       

      Other related links

      • All FHB podcast show notes: FineHomebuilding.com/podcast.
      • #KeepCraftAlive T-shirts support scholarships for building trades students. So go order some shirts at KeepCraftAlive.org.
      • The direct link to the online store is here.

      Sign up to get the Fine Homebuilding Podcast newsletter and special offers delivered to your inbox.

      Signing you up...

      This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
      See all newsletters
      See all newsletters
      ×

      Get home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox

      Signing you up...

      This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
      See all newsletters
      See all newsletters

      New Feature

      Fine Homebuilding Forums

      Ask questions, offer advice, and share your work

      • X
      • facebook
      • linkedin
      • pinterest
      • email
      • add to favorites Log in or Sign up to save your favorite articles

      View Comments

      1. Frattman | Jun 01, 2019 03:32pm | #1

        Hi guys,
        After finding it ineffective explaining to my radio how magic eraser sponges work during your last couple of conversations about them I decided I should write in. They're made of melamine foam, and have no cleaning agent impregnated within them. They clean by abrasive action and wear away as a pencil eraser would. You do need to be careful on what you use them on since you can damage surfaces like paint if you bear down too hard. I'm a tile installer and I recommend their use on tubs, tile, and grout to remove soap scum. You can get a hundred of them on Amazon for under five bucks if you don't mind waiting a month for them and consider that they are considerably more flimsy than a name brand product.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melamine_foam

        https://www.amazon.com/Sponge-Cleaning-Melamine-Multi-Functional-Cleaner/dp/B01LZB2HOQ/ref=sr_1_5?crid=2LXP3MDABUPN3&keywords=melamine+sponges+100+pack&qid=1559417350&s=gateway&sprefix=melamine+sponges%2Caps%2C156&sr=8-5

      2. patrick_mccombe | Jun 04, 2019 09:49am | #2

        Thanks Frattman. And thanks for listening!

      Log in or create an account to post a comment.

      Sign up Log in

      Become a member and get full access to FineHomebuilding.com

      More The Fine Homebuilding Podcast

      View All
      • Podcast Episode 694: Bath Fans, Too Many Minisplits, and Second-Story Additions
      • FHB Podcast Segment: Can You Have Too Many Minisplits?
      • Podcast Episode 693: Old-House Hazards, Building Larsen Trusses, AI in Construction
      • FHB Podcast Segment: Finding Hazardous Materials in a Fixer-Upper
      View All

      Up Next

      Video Shorts

      Featured Story

      Choosing a Paintbrush

      Tips for picking the right paintbrush based on paint type, surface, and personal comfort.

      Featured Video

      How to Install Cable Rail Around Wood-Post Corners

      Use these tips to keep cables tight and straight for a professional-looking deck-railing job.

      Related Stories

      • Podcast Episode 694: Bath Fans, Too Many Minisplits, and Second-Story Additions
      • Ad-Hoc Scroll Saw
      • Fine Homebuilding's Author Guidelines
      • Podcast Episode 693: Old-House Hazards, Building Larsen Trusses, AI in Construction

      Discussion Forum

      Recent Posts and Replies

      • |
      • |
      • |
      • |
      • |
      • |
      View More Create Post

      Highlights

      Fine Homebuilding All Access
      Fine Homebuilding Podcast
      Tool Tech
      Plus, get an extra 20% off with code GIFT20

      "I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.

      Get home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox

      Signing you up...

      This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
      See all newsletters
      See all newsletters

      Video

      View All Videos
      • A Closer Look at Smart Water-Leak Detection Systems
      • Podcast Episode 678: Live from the Builders' Show-Part 2
      • Podcast Episode 677: Live from the Builders' Show-Part 1
      • FHB Podcast Segment: The Best of the Fine Homebuilding Podcast, Volume 8
      View All

      Fine Homebuilding Magazine

      • Issue 333 - August/September 2025
        • A Practical Perfect Wall
        • Landscape Lighting Essentials
        • Repairing a Modern Window Sash
      • Issue 332 - July 2025
        • Custom Built-ins With Job-Site Tools
        • Fight House Fires Through Design
        • Making the Move to Multifamily
      • Issue 331 - June 2025
        • A More Resilient Roof
        • Tool Test: You Need a Drywall Sander
        • Ducted vs. Ductless Heat Pumps
      • Issue 330 - April/May 2025
        • Deck Details for Durability
        • FAQs on HPWHs
        • 10 Tips for a Long-Lasting Paint Job
      • Issue 329 - Feb/Mar 2025
        • Smart Foundation for a Small Addition
        • A Kominka Comes West
        • Making Small Kitchens Work

      Fine Home Building

      Newsletter Sign-up

      • Fine Homebuilding

        Home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox.

      • Green Building Advisor

        Building science and energy efficiency advice, plus special offers, in your inbox.

      • Old House Journal

        Repair, renovation, and restoration tips, plus special offers, in your inbox.

      Signing you up...

      This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
      See all newsletters

      Follow

      • Fine Homebuilding

        Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.

        Start Free Trial Now
        • Facebook
        • Instagram
        • X
        • LinkedIn
      • GBA Prime

        Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.

        Start Free Trial Now
        • Facebook
        • YouTube
      • Old House Journal

        Learn how to restore, repair, update, and decorate your home.

        Subscribe Now
        • Facebook
        • Instagram
        • X
      • Fine Homebuilding

        Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.

        Start Free Trial Now
        • Facebook
        • Instagram
        • X
        • LinkedIn
      • GBA Prime

        Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.

        Start Free Trial Now
        • Facebook
        • YouTube
      • Old House Journal

        Learn how to restore, repair, update, and decorate your home.

        Subscribe Now
        • Facebook
        • Instagram
        • X

      Membership & Magazine

      • Online Archive
      • Start Free Trial
      • Magazine Subscription
      • Magazine Renewal
      • Gift a Subscription
      • Customer Support
      • Privacy Preferences
      • About
      • Contact
      • Advertise
      • Careers
      • Terms of Use
      • Site Map
      • Do not sell or share my information
      • Privacy Policy
      • Accessibility
      • California Privacy Rights

      © 2025 Active Interest Media. All rights reserved.

      Fine Homebuilding receives a commission for items purchased through links on this site, including Amazon Associates and other affiliate advertising programs.

      • Home Group
      • Antique Trader
      • Arts & Crafts Homes
      • Bank Note Reporter
      • Cabin Life
      • Cuisine at Home
      • Fine Gardening
      • Fine Woodworking
      • Green Building Advisor
      • Garden Gate
      • Horticulture
      • Keep Craft Alive
      • Log Home Living
      • Military Trader/Vehicles
      • Numismatic News
      • Numismaster
      • Old Cars Weekly
      • Old House Journal
      • Period Homes
      • Popular Woodworking
      • Script
      • ShopNotes
      • Sports Collectors Digest
      • Threads
      • Timber Home Living
      • Traditional Building
      • Woodsmith
      • World Coin News
      • Writer's Digest
      Active Interest Media logo
      X
      X
      This is a dialog window which overlays the main content of the page. The modal window is a 'site map' of the most critical areas of the site. Pressing the Escape (ESC) button will close the modal and bring you back to where you were on the page.

      Main Menu

      • How-To
      • Design
      • Tools & Materials
      • Video
      • Blogs
      • Forum
      • Project Guides
      • Reader Projects
      • Magazine
      • Members
      • FHB House

      Podcasts

      • FHB Podcast
      • ProTalk

      Webinars

      • Upcoming and On-Demand

      Podcasts

      • FHB Podcast
      • ProTalk

      Webinars

      • Upcoming and On-Demand

      Popular Topics

      • Kitchens
      • Business
      • Bedrooms
      • Roofs
      • Architecture and Design
      • Green Building
      • Decks
      • Framing
      • Safety
      • Remodeling
      • Bathrooms
      • Windows
      • Tilework
      • Ceilings
      • HVAC

      Magazine

      • Current Issue
      • Past Issues
      • Magazine Index
      • Subscribe
      • Online Archive
      • Author Guidelines

      All Access

      • Member Home
      • Start Free Trial
      • Gift Membership

      Online Learning

      • Courses
      • Project Guides
      • Reader Projects
      • Podcast

      More

      • FHB Ambassadors
      • FHB House
      • Customer Support

      Account

      • Log In
      • Join

      Newsletter

      Get home building tips, offers, and expert advice in your inbox

      Signing you up...

      This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.
      See all newsletters
      See all newsletters

      Follow

      • X
      • YouTube
      • instagram
      • facebook
      • pinterest
      • Tiktok

      Join All Access

      Become a member and get instant access to thousands of videos, how-tos, tool reviews, and design features.

      Start Your Free Trial

      Subscribe

      FHB Magazine

      Start your subscription today and save up to 70%

      Subscribe

      Enjoy unlimited access to Fine Homebuilding. Join Now

      Already a member? Log in

      We hope you’ve enjoyed your free articles. To keep reading, become a member today.

      Get complete site access to expert advice, how-to videos, Code Check, and more, plus the print magazine.

      Start your FREE trial

      Already a member? Log in

      Privacy Policy Update

      We use cookies, pixels, script and other tracking technologies to analyze and improve our service, to improve and personalize content, and for advertising to you. We also share information about your use of our site with third-party social media, advertising and analytics partners. You can view our Privacy Policy here and our Terms of Use here.

      Cookies

      Analytics

      These cookies help us track site metrics to improve our sites and provide a better user experience.

      Advertising/Social Media

      These cookies are used to serve advertisements aligned with your interests.

      Essential

      These cookies are required to provide basic functions like page navigation and access to secure areas of the website.

      Delete My Data

      Delete all cookies and associated data