What is the big advantage of replacing all my old full flow valves in the house when I redo my plumbing with the new quarter turn valves?
When replacing at the main should I always keep the full flow and use 1/4 turn everywhere else? Opinoins please.
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Replies
I think you're confusing two different characteristics, valve type with flow. Type of valve would be ball valve, gate valve, globe valve, and many others. Many types of valves can be had in standard configuration or full-port configuration.
Some valve types are inherently more restrictive than others, for example, globe valves provide much more resistance than ball valves.
If I were building a house I'd use ball valves in all the supply lines because of their good flow characteristics and reliability.
The quarter-turn "ball" valves are generally "full flow", and, in fact, probably offer less resistance to flow than most other types. They consist of a ball turning in a chamber. A hole is drilled through the ball that is the diameter of the pipe, and when the hole is aligned with the entering and exiting pipes it presents a single smooth flow path.
The other common "full flow" valve is the gate valve, which, as the name implies, has a gate that raises and lowers into the water flow. Gate valves are a royal PITA since the track the gate rides in tends to get clogged with silt and hard water deposits, causing the valve to not seal tighly when closed.
So for all new "shutoff valve" uses, use a good quality 1/4-turn ball valve.
Neither of these valves should be used (long term) for regulating water flow, as the seats will eventually erode, causing an inability to seal. For regulated flow the conventional "globe" (not to be confused with "ball") valve (standard washer-type valve) should be used, or else a modern ceramic-seat slide valve (as is found in some single-handle faucets).
When I plumbed my house I used what Dan referenced...full flow 1/4 turn ball valves.
If it's a line that you think you may need to shut off and drain, get the valve with the bleed nipple.
May be a dumb aside, but put the bleed nipple on the side that you want to drain. Normally the fixture side. Allows you to turn off the supply, drain the line, and replace or repair the fixture.
Mongo
I should have added that, at least according to some authorities, ball valves are not advised in places where they're normally off, as the ball can corrode/deform/build up deposits in the "off" position and be impossible to turn on.However, the extreme convenience of a 1/4-turn valve vs the other options is one reason why I'd risk using a ball valve in such service, regardless.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
@@ not advised in places where they're normally off, as the ball can corrode/deform/build up deposits in the "off" position and be impossible to turn on.So can the common gate valve. In Orange County, CA, you are asking for it with a gate valve as the main water shutoff. (Don't ask how I know.)
The water is full of minerals and calcinification is SOP. We use nothing but ball valves and like the solid brass quarter turn ball valves for toilet and lav. supply. vs. the El Slezo line.Changing out water heaters, we come with a full set of ball valve retrofit kits as the gate valve will normally be frozen open.The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
>>>In Orange County, CA, you are asking for it with a gate valve as the main water shutoff. (Don't ask how I know.)
The water is full of minerals and calcinification is SOP.Yikes. Really? I've got a 1" gate as my main shutoff. What's best then?Thanks,Scott.Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
I put gate valves on my cold water line to my hot water heater when I replaced it about 15 years ago. This is in the S.F. Bay Area which has super clear water from the Sierras. However, I tried to shut it off a couple of weeks ago and found that it would not shut the flow off completely, there was still a slight trickle coming through. Had to shut off the main house supply so that I could solder on a hot water pipe. I am debating whether it is worth the hassle of replacing the gate valve with a ball valve or just figure on shutting down the whole house when I need to work on the the hot water system.
Yeah, this is similar to the problems I had. Replaced the gate valves with ball valves when I replaced my water softener.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Bottom line is All valves may eventually fail, especially when they are not used on a semi regular basis.
We just replaced a valve on a laid up steam boiler that was leaking and caused oxygen pitting in the boiler.
Previous manager did not want to spend the money on a new valve.
Cost of valve, $1000. Cost of repairs, over $10,000.
pay me now, pay me later....
@@@ Yikes. Really? I've got a 1" gate as my main shutoff. What's best then?Really.I have pix of my main shutoff, complete with a calcium rim that prevented full sealing. Last time we had to pull three water heaters to deal with mold issues in the wall, two of the three gate valves were history. We sweated on new gates with threaded adapters so the next guy could just unscrew the valve.The usual option is to replace it with a ball valve. I paid the plumber for this job at my place. Another option is to shut down the water at the meter, disassemble the valve and clean the crud out of the seat and the gate. Sand it, scrape it, etc. The trick is in getting an old valve apart. You may wind up breaking something. Bit of delicate torch work to expand the parts.When you put it back together, put a bit of Never Seize on the threads so next time will be easier to disasemble. Never Seize is probably easier to find than anhydrous lanolin. I have used that stuff for 40 years on my boats on threads submerged in salt water or exposed. Anchor shackles, etc. They will open after 10-20 years in service.The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
Note that I said the ball is best in the "always on" position, and can in theory freeze in the "always off" position. The gate valve is the opposite -- better for "always off" applications.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
@@ The gate valve is the opposite -- better for "always off" applications.I think they also meet the "Always cheaper" criteria, which is why we see so many of them installed.The ToolBear
"Never met a man who couldn't teach me something." Anon.
I'm guessing that gate valves are more expensive than ball valves of the same size, based on the greater amount of brass.Gate valves only make sense (any more) in very large sizes where the equivalent ball valve would be too long and too difficult to operate. They were previously popular because the long-life plastic needed to make reliable ball valves wasn't available.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
I have a couple full port 1/4 throw valves about 4' inside my rim joist for my hose bibs, which also happen to be the frost-proof bibs.I do turn the valve off in the winter, fortunately I've not noticed a problem in the springtime when turning them back on.Mongo
Being off for "only" a few months should not be a problem.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Like everybody says, ball valves are the way to go. I don't know how many times I've run into gate valves that won't close to stop the flow completely so I can do repairs downstream. And then there's those times when the stem breaks off the gate because of corrosion, or the HO had cranked the valve too tight one too many times. Just want to pass on one other piece of advice that a couple of journeyman plumbers passed on to me. If it's copper that you're working with, solder on a male adapter and then use a threaded ball valve. That way if it goes bad in the future, it's just a matter of threading a new one on without the hassles of soldering on a new one.
I also want to warn against those ball valves that can be soldered into copper piping. You cannot take out the valve body, so you have to solder with the unit assembled.
Unless you are REALLY, REALLY, REALLY careful, you will distort something around the stem, and it will leak slowly. Eventually you will have some really pretty green stuff around the stem, and it cannot be turned.
I STRONGLY recommend that you use threaded valves in all cases.
???????????????????????
if you are applying that much heat, you are probably burning out the flux and you won't get the solder to run anyway.
More chance of the thread leaking than ruining the valve.
OK, the question of questions: Solder open or closed?
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
<if you are applying that much heat>
A fair question.
In another life (as I mentioned earlier) I worked at a company that made antennas. One of our antennas started leaking (they are big, and supposed to be sealed). The gasket was teflon.
Long story short: The antenna had been run at too high a power rating. Teflon has a very high expansion with temperature, so as the temperature rose, the teflon was squeezed and was "squished" (Technical term for having been compressed so much it stayed compressed --grin--). When the temperature dropped, the Teflon shrunk and the thing leaked.
[You sparkies have seen the same problem with aluminum wire.]
So, what I think happens is that the seal on the valve (which looks like Teflon as you look inside a new unit) gets a little overheated, takes a set, and then when it cools it will develop a leak. The valves do not typically have a way of snugging down around the stem.
As a lot of these valves are sold, it is clear that they can be soldered successfully. I stand by my original statement that you have to be very careful.
Incorrect, there is little chance that you will harm a ball valve if you keep the valve closed, [too much heat will destroy any valve];] I will not get into a pizzing contest with someone that thinks they should be open. Globe valves, stop valves, and gate valves should be soldered with the valve open. Info. only. I had to edit this post because I put ball valves into both catagories, sorry.
Edited 8/7/2007 10:02 am ET by Shacko
This is definitely NOT a flame question. And, I apologize for what might be hijacking of the thread.
Why should the valve be in one position or another when soldering?
(The only answer I can think of is the possiblility of solder getting into the valve area.)
"Why should the valve be in one position or another when soldering?"
Manufacturer's instructions I've seen, say solder with the valve open. The reasoning apparently is that the ball and seal are less likely to deform under heat if fully enclosed in, and restrained by, the valve body. With the valve closed, part of the ball is open to the path where water usually flows and the seal is exposed to the hole in the ball, and they can deform into the space if heated too much.
Personally, I've soldered a ton of these and have never had any problems either way. I am reasonably careful not to grossly overheat the valve, but other than that, I just use normal soldering technique.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I suppose I should have looked up the instructions first, but after all, Real MEN ..........! Anyway, from Milwaukee Valve (http://www.milwaukeevalve.com/data/pdf/MVTB_Installing_BA350TE.pdf)
This bulletin presents proper technique for installation of BA350TE valves, particularly with respect to prevention of overheating of seats during soldering/brazing.
The recommended practice is to have the valve in the closed position (this limits convection in the internal flow passages, which can be significant, especially on vertical runs). The mating tubing is brought to the valve for make up. A saturated wet rag is placed around the connecting tubing, on the side of the joint AWAY from the valve, to act as a heat sink during soldering/brazing. It should be noted whether soldering or brazing that heat input can and should be minimized to the degree possible.
There is a common misperception in the industry (for both solder/braze and welded valves) that wrapping the valve itself with a wet rag will prevent seat damage. The fact is that this practice ensures maximum heat is brought to the valve, and makes the chance for seat damage greatest. While the wet rag on the valve will indeed keep the surface temperature of the body at 212 F or lower, by so doing it pulls the heat across the seats from the point of flame, and the temperature in the region of the seats can exceed the limits of the material.
Other standard considerations apply, most notably making sure that side or bending loads are not transmitted through the valve, packing is retightened prior to system start up, etc.
Questions regarding this communication can be directed to Milwaukee Valve engineering at 414 744 5240.
Go figger!
I KNOW I read just the opposite on a valve I installed recently. I remember, 'cause it was right after seeing a similar thread here and I thought "well, there you have it!" I guess different mfgrs have different ideas. I guess that's why I never had any problem whichever way I did 'em. (Can't say I ever brazed one though. Thay gets things way hotter than soldering.)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I don't get the wet rag thing. There's no physics to the statement that the rag can "pull" heat.I'm guessing what they're trying to say is that a wet rag on the valve body causes the rate of temp rise in the brass valve to be too slow, increasing the chance of damage.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
<I'm guessing what they're trying to say is that a wet rag on the valve body causes the rate of temp rise in the brass valve to be too slow, increasing the chance of damage.>
Yes I think that is what they are saying, and also they are saying that the interior of the valve can get overheated when the outside of the valve is cooled. Apparently you have to add too much heat to the connection to melt the solder, and this is what causes the interior to get too hot.
What they don't say is that you should probably have a second wet rag available to lay onto the valve after you have finished the soldering, to cool it down, so it doesn't get too hot when you do that other side.
Edited 8/6/2007 3:41 pm by JohnD1
I have never used a wet rag and I always solder with the valve open.
We had this discussion a while back and I found directions to do it both ways.
I did solder a valve in the closed position once. There must have been some water between the ball and the teflon that heated up and turned into steam, because it blew apart. Sounded like a shotgun going off.
So do you go both ways at once, or do you alternate?
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
When soldering an assembly of fittings together I tend to get better results if there is a place for the heated air in the pipe to escape, i.e. an open valve or a fitting left off at the end of the line.
If your soldering a closed valve on a line occasionaly you might experince air bubbles coming out of the solder, this can cause a pin hole type leak between the pipe an fitting.
I have had ball valves pop if you open them just after the solder sets up, it's just air trapped in them.
Mostly I'm not particular about weather a ball valve is open or closed, my goal is no leaks.
I do the whole thing at once.
"(The only answer I can think of is the possiblility of solder getting into the valve area.)", that is one of the reasons, you don't want to solder a gate valve on the vertical unless you have to, its too easy for the solder to get into the gate mechanism if you use too much paste or heat. Most stop and globe valves should not have the handle on the bottom of the pipe, they are prone to debris and you won't be able to shut them off. These are not categorical statements. You can put valves in any position if you understand the potential probs. luck......................................
"If all else fails, read the directions"
I'm a little confused.
you first said: there is little chance that you will harm a ball valve if you keep the valve closed,
Then: Globe valves, ball valves, and gate valves should be soldered with the valve open.
I've always been told to solder with the valves open, not saying that I've been told correctly, just what I've been told.
Should certain types of valves be open and others closed, all closed, or all open?
MY BAD!! It looks like I forgot to read my own post; it has been edited. Like I told another post nothing I say is categorical. When ball valves came on the market there were instruction with the valve to solder closed. If you solder any other valve it should be open due to the potential damage to the interior. Most pros modify these caveats after doing thousands of valves. Bottom line is don't over paste or over heat.Luck......................................
"If all else fails, read the directions"
I think it's more of a pro/am issue. If you're going to be a cost effective professional plumber, you'll have to learn how to solder valves. You may trash a few in the process. For a DIY or handyman who does this infrequently, like I do, the extra cost and work of going with thread adapters is cheap insurance. It's especially a nice idea for things like hose bibs, where it'll be easier to replace them.
On the open vs. closed issue, the one thing I've encountered is that there must be a way for the heated air to escape. Otherwise, it'll blow the solder right out of the joint.
-- J.S.
-- J.S.
If you just mean the fixture cut-off valves (the ones under the counter, or connecting the fixture to the supply)--the quarter turn to close units are very much nicer to have around than the turn-eleventy-times valves.
Now, if you mean full-flow fixtures (lavatory faucets, shower fixtures, etc.)--that's a different, and heated, debate.
For the cut-off valves, those quarter-turn units generally mean never kneeling in a rising puddle of water cranking the channel-loks around that ellipsoid handle thingie watching the stem screw not move at all. Generally. Depending on water quality. And whether it's Sunday about 2305 or so . . .
Now, I say that premised upon that a person went to the plumbing supply house for the good (or better) fittings, too.
Now, my muni requires that they install a quarter-turn gate valve on their side of the meter, and a globe valve on my side. Don't have the first clue why that is, just that it is.