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I’ve been planning this house forever and working on it for even longer. I thank you experts for answering my millions of questions. Never knew this site existed and I’ve gone crazy looking for some of the answers. Seems like I have been having a new post each day. Course I could just go ahead and post the million at one time. Anyway, thanks for all your help.
My architect says because of the new laws re 1 1/2 gallon flushing toilets, I should consider a 3″ main line instead of 4″. He said there’s been problems with insufficient pressure in the main lines to adequately keep them flushed out. One of my best friends is a plumbing contractor and tells me not to even consider a 3″ line.
The house is 3 bedrooms, five baths (2 people, 2 dogs).
What do you think?
Thanks again.
Linda
Replies
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Linda, I'm a DIYer but got to thinking about this. Seems like the larger the pipe the lower the water level would be, ie barely noticeable and incapable of pushing solids. Perhaps with 5 baths your configuration of waste lines would give more volume to some pipes. Maybe use 3" for the guest bath or others that will see infrequent use. How about 4" for that final stretch. I suppose the greater the volume of water the bigger the pipe I would feel comfortable with. Placing drains for large whirlpool tubs and washing machines upstream of toilets may help in flushing the system. Also beware of the liklihood of traps drying out and allowing sewer gases in from those seldom used appliances. Have some fun with the diagram on paper and try to minimize the runs and max the flow.
*Is going to Canada an option?I understand folks are bringing real flushies back. Something interesting to declare.Ask about the one I saw in Reno at the Peppermill. It has an air cylinder where the water would be. It worked - and also sounded like a cherry bomb. A slug of high speed water came shooting out. My wife seems to make them all work in 5-6 tries - be it our classic Manly Flush or the new Wussie Flush. I don't see where we are saving any water to be PC. What is needed is a loo with a selector switch: #1 or #2, with water volume to match.
*I am not a plumber so please don't take this at a face value. Just chiming in with some observations. 1.6 gal. toilets have been around for some time and I believe most houses are equipped with 4 inch lines. People complain about these toilets at the usage end, but I haven't heard of millions of houses being clogged. And who knows? They the government may bring the regular flushes back. I hear that some politicians are passionate about this. Sorry about bringing in politics where it doesn't belong... Anyway, I hope I was at least entertaining.
*JW;I saw that a few years back. You replace the single flush handle with a double unit. Using the big handle gave a short flush to take care of #1. Using the small inner handle gave a full flush for #2.I hear a lot of crap (pun intended) said of the low flow toilets. I replaced a 5 gal unit with a Kohler Wellworth many years back & have never been happier. My water bill dropped in half in a month. My wife was flushing upwards of 3 dozen times per day. She was rinsing diapers in the bowl.It took a bit of learning for my wife to cut back on the butt wipe (she's a wadder) in order to stop plugging the pipes, but we got there.I just replaced the flapper (second time) in the closet. I got a Danco replacement for Kohler. I discovered the original and first replacement underflushed by a quart or so. Now, NO MORE PLUGS!Myabe we need to install a bidet in every throne room?Back to the original question. If the toilet is the only water source on the DWV, go with 3" if local code will allow. I've installed 3" for waste line on full flush toilets with no troubles.Cheers; John (sic)
*Linda,What the building (plumbing) inspector says is going to matter more than what either the achitect or the plumber says. With 5 bathrooms i suspect the main building sewer will have to be at least 4 inches, individual branches serving less than 3 waterclosets would probably best be 3". As far as keeping the "main line" flushed out, I think the clothes washer will take care of that. Jay
*Seems to me it would depend on the type of toilet you were installing -- gravity or pressure-assist.With a gravity model you would want the larger line to minimize blockage. The larger line however decreases the pressure of the water as it enters the waste line so a smaller diameter would maximize pressure for a pressure-assisted model.Hope you plumbers out there will correct me if I'm mistaken.
*Just as a rule of thumb: when it comes to sewage lines, I'd go with the plumber every time.As for the 1.6 gal toilets, I've got one I don't like and another that I much prefer to my old 3.5 gal.tims.
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I installed a new Kohler 1.6 gravity flush last year and it has been very satisfactory. Never have to flush twice. I was warned it would be a problem but I (unknowingly) bought one of the redesigned units with a larger trapway - ones made after the Consumer's Report tests and some other independent ratings (see plumbing.com for links).
I don't have any long, horizontal runs. Have read that if possible arrange so tub/shower "wash" the lines. Makes sense. Also the plumbers at plumbing.com seem to advocate a steeper than code minimum pitch.
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I'm not a plumber, but my gut feeling is that it is the slope of the line, not the line size. We replaced our good 'ol water gushers w/ the "eco-friendly" 1.5 gal w.c.'s and I am now the designated toilet sentry (my daughter, 7 yrs old, is the main culprit). It seems that I constantly am plunging the downstairs loo (after daughter dumps) 2X / week. I rarely have to plunge the upstairs. Therefore , my conclusion is that there is not enough head to flush the line and we need greater slope or greater velocity (maybe we have too large a line size).
Anyhoo-you Canadiens have the right idea.
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One 1.6 in my house is a piece of junk. New (2 years), constantly plugging. It will be replaced. All other's work fine, one is even the same model. I've yanked it to inspect the trapway, nothing mysterious...but it has to go. No problem with pipe clogs, just the commode itself.
Pipe size depends on a couple of variables: pitch and volume. Less water volume (1.6) will move solids along better in a smaller pipe than in a larger one due to the increased depth of the water as it travels down the pipe. Too large a diameter, water depth is insufficient to carry and the solids will be left behind. Too steep a pitch and the water will rush faster than the solids can float along. Not enough pitch and the water will trickle with not enough velocity to move the solids along.
Combine the code with the plumber's experience, and do as (I think) Bill advised: Have a high volume (shower/laundry/sink, etc) provider upstream to assist your leftovers on their journey.
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On a trip to Australia in '92 I was able to use such a loo. Two buttons on top. Worked nicely. Was installed in a hostel so I imagine that it had to work better than average.
Chris
*I've had 1.5 gallon flushes in my home for 5 years and they clog constantly whether its little kids or "big" kids. All are connected by 4" PVCdrain. Clogs are always in the "throat". Mfgrreduced throat dia. when he decreased volume of water, Plus, look at the throat design.. its looks like an inverted trap. Solids must go up and around a bend (a narrower bend). I think the clogging problem is in throat design (thats why some mfgs are better than others). Look for a gravity flush (less parts to fail than assisted) with larger throat. Also I hear some mfgrs are glazing the insides of the throats to create a smoother surface. Finally, my solution is to hold the handle down during a solids flush and releasing only if water level in bowl rises to with an inch or two of the inside rim, lower edge. This has solved 90% of clogs (although I can't train my kids). Also perform "courtesy flush" when solids are in bowl, prior to addition of paper. Of couse, I save no water on solids but do save on liquids. Maybe- replace with the two lever units??
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Speaking from the Canadian side of the tissue,I mean issue, I've installed 2 'American Standard Hydra 1.6gal', one at home which my youngsters use constantly, and one on a job. . . no complaints with either going on three years. Both are connected to 3" DWV, and both have substantial horizontal raked sections, without tub/shower wash feature.
*Gentlemen. I'm no plumber. However, I have used low flush toilets for 15 years. The first were Flushomatic? with the pressurized tank. We eventually replace them, but not because they didn't work. The trouble was internal leakage. Yes the factory was most helpful, furnished free replacement parts. But we unable to stop the leaks. In the second Leger House one of these toilets discharged into a 60 foot long line.We never had a probnlem with double flushing. However, extremely sticky fecal matter is a problem whether you have a 10 gallon flush of a 1.6 gallon one.I've seen plenty of 5 gallon flush toilets that had to be double and tripled flushed.A lot of cheap low flushs toilets are on the market. The trap way is less tha 2-inches in diameter and this can cause clogging.When buying a low flush make ceretasin the trap way is 2-inches or greater.Of all the low flush toilets we owned I like the Swedish best. The only negative is the exterior construction which make cleaning it a bit difficult. GeneL.
*"The house is 3 bedrooms, five baths (2 people, 2 dogs)."Actually, Linda, I've been meaning to ask -- your dogs use the toilets in the bathrooms? And they have their own bedrooms?
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according to code you can put 3 stools on a vertical
3" line when you have 4 or more stools on the horizontal line then the line shall be 4". i believe the stools are 1.6 gal flush. hope this helps. dale
*Just another thought on the problems with 1.5 gallon flush toilets. I'm not suggesting you tamper with your new toilet (but).. If you find you're wasting more water than you're saving, it might need a little "adjusting" to make it work properly! The ones most easily adjusted are the tall tank gravity flow models that look similar to or exactly like the old 3.5 gallon models. These have a tank that is tall(to give more head to the flush) and hold much more than 1.5 gallons of water. There is a device inside the tank that shuts off the flow of water out of the tank after it has discharged 1.5 gallons into the bowl. Sometimes these don't work just right and with a little ingenuity you can make it discharge the correct amount of water for a good flush!
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On the subject of tall: Would it be helpful to revive the old fashioned water closet, with the tank high up on the wall? The main disadvantage I can see is you wouldn't be able to rip off the cover to stop an overflowing toilet, but this emergency feature could be better served by a ball valve on the wall.
Anachronistically, Andrew
*Plumber friend of mine recommends a vent connection as close as possible to the toilet flange. I plumbed in a 3/4 bath a couple of years ago at the in-laws (3" line) and followed his advice. Also dump the shower and sink into the verical rise to the toilet. Double flushes are very rare. Could be the vent and then again it could be dumb luck. Also, no problems with backing up in the line.
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Listen to your plumber. What your architect "knows" he gets from publications. I suspect that your plumber has been elbow deep in, well.. Let's say your plumber has more hands 'in' experience than your architect has had nightmares about. When that waste removal system doesn't work, you're not going to be flipping through the yellows (HMM! That's appropriate!!) looking for a 24 hour architect!! Install the cheapest Home Depot fixtures you can get, then plan a nice trip to Canada, dimensions and color swatches in hand, and buy the real flushers up there. (You might even be able to get them shipped to you. Start looking around the web!) The "save water" movement was a bust, ill-conceived, not thought out, and panicky. Yes, we get occassional droughts, but on the whole, we get more than we can use. The brick in the toilet crowd saved a little water in California (Where I live), the don't flush so often thing cut way down on the time people spent musing in the bathroom, etcetera, but it screwed up the septic plants, which were, and still are, engineered for a ratio of water to solids to function properly, and we had a lot of restricted sewer mains, loaded up, not getting the solid matter through to the sewerage plants. Get the real thing, I'll never tell!!
Regards, Buck
*NJ,Politics does belong here when beareaucrats and tax and spend politicians can't keep their noses out of your business and fingers out of your wallet, taking and diverting your money away from sticks and stones and into the hands of special interests, special fees, special agencies, and on and on and on.SOME EXAMPLES: State of Hawaii; Only a licensed electrical contractor can wire anything in the state. "For your protection". I stood looking through the windows of one of the dining rooms at the Keahou Beach Hotel, in July of '97, (I think it was a Monday night, parking lot full of white pickup trucks.), Tables all over the place, covered with plans, people going from table to table. The sign at the door said Big Island Electrical Contractors Association. This, I pointed out to my dear wife, was the most blatant and public act of bid rigging I had ever seen. (Of course, I've never lived in Chicago!) Why could they do it? No competition from any one without a ticket. You get those at the state building in Hilo, after you pay the right people. (In California, some heavy hitters rigged the bids on the landscaping at a Junior College. They went to the Federal Joint!)_ State of California:The water gets delivered to houses all over the state, from both municipal and private sources, through Polyvinyl Chloride pipe, but you cannot use it in your home, "It's a carcinogen!" says the plumbers union, which has the appropriate committees in the state legislature locked up. Which sent representatives to County boards of Supervisors to light a length of PVC pipe on fire, scare the hell out of everybody, get the Fire Marshall's (More union boys) on rheir side, and ban the terrible stuff. All inthe interest of higher cost, susceptible to corrosive water, labor intensive copper pipe! Up yours homeowner! Pay and shut up! It'a allowed in almost every other state and county in the Union (Except, I understand once again, Chicago!!), but not in California, for your protection!! (Why haven't they banned wood frame construction?? Two by Fours burn well, I understand!)And, getting to two by fours, noticed the price of West Coast framing lumber lately? That ain't the market, it's the pseudo-environmentalists, whose solution to the skyrocketing construction costs is. Don't be a pig! Live in a smaller house, eat communally, ride a bike, don't use a woodstove, and give up everything you have above the average in your community! In this little town, to build an average three bed room, two bath home, with two car attached garage, you have to give, on average, $25,000 to the city, county, coastal commission, water district, sanitary authority, and school board, BEFORE YOU TURN ONE SHOVELFUL OF DIRT! And the same politicians that control all of these agencies are always crying alligator tears about the lack of affordable housing, and condemning the EVIL DEVELOPERS!!Talk politics and housing all the time. They are squeezing you and trying to push the American Dream further away, all the time!Regards, Buck
*NJ,Politics does belong here when beareaucrats and tax and spend politicians can't keep their noses out of your business and fingers out of your wallet, taking and diverting your money away from sticks and stones and into the hands of special interests, special fees, special agencies, and on and on and on.SOME EXAMPLES: State of Hawaii; Only a licensed electrical contractor can wire anything in the state. "For your protection". I stood looking through the windows of one of the dining rooms at the Keahou Beach Hotel, in July of '97, (I think it was a Monday night, parking lot full of white pickup trucks.), Tables all over the place, covered with plans, people going from table to table. The sign at the door said Big Island Electrical Contractors Association. This, I pointed out to my dear wife, was the most blatant and public act of bid rigging I had ever seen. (Of course, I've never lived in Chicago!) Why could they do it? No competition from any one without a ticket. You get those at the state building in Hilo, after you pay the right people. (In California, some heavy hitters rigged the bids on the landscaping at a Junior College. They went to the Federal Joint!)_ State of California:The water gets delivered to houses all over the state, from both municipal and private sources, through Polyvinyl Chloride pipe, but you cannot use it in your home, "It's a carcinogen!" says the plumbers union, which has the appropriate committees in the state legislature locked up. Which sent representatives to County boards of Supervisors to light a length of PVC pipe on fire, scare the hell out of everybody, get the Fire Marshall's (More union boys) on their side, and ban the terrible stuff. All in the interest of higher cost, susceptible to corrosive water, labor intensive copper pipe! Up yours homeowner! Pay and shut up! It's allowed in almost every other state and county in the Union (Except, I understand once again, Chicago!!), but not in California, for your protection!! (Why haven't they banned wood frame construction?? Two by Fours burn well, I understand!)And, getting to two by fours, noticed the price of West Coast framing lumber lately? That ain't the market, it's the pseudo-environmentalists, whose solution to the skyrocketing construction costs is. Don't be a pig! Live in a smaller house, eat communally, ride a bike, don't use a woodstove, and give up everything you have above the average in your community! In this little town, to build an average three bed room, two bath home, with two car attached garage, you have to give, on average, $25,000 to the city, county, coastal commission, water district, sanitary authority, and school board, BEFORE YOU TURN ONE SHOVELFUL OF DIRT! And the same politicians that control all of these agencies are always crying alligator tears about the lack of affordable housing, and condemning the EVIL DEVELOPERS!!Talk politics and housing all the time. They are squeezing you and trying to push the American Dream further away, all the time!Regards, Buck
*After the first three toilets, you will need to use 4" pipe. The smaller pipe size, 3" does have better carry, but until plumbing codes change, you will still need 4" pipe when you have four or more toilets.On the subject of 1.6 toilets, look up Terry Love's consumer report on low flow toilets, the ones that work! at http://www.terrylove.com/crtoilet.htmRegards,Terry
*My solution is to flush solids 5 seconds before splashdown. The solids hit at the height of water velocity and pointing in the right direction. I tried putting typed instructions on our toilets, but my wife made me take them down.
*Linda, being in the land of Oz you might want to check out Toto Toilets, ( no Kidding) check out http://www.Terrylove.com/crtoilet.htm for more info or search Toto toilets Happy Flushing!!!!
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Some like them and some don't personal can't stand the things. After adjusting and cussing went out and bought salvage toliets and had them redone (color changed) Ripped out the old 1.6 and installed 3.5. I'm on my own well and sewer.
A pumber showed me a trick on the early 1.6 stuff. Some of these models have a plastic tank inside of them and someone drills holes in this tank. You convert them into many gallon flush units. Only problem is you have to adjust the water in the tank or a overflow will happen when 5 gallons meets your 3 gallon bowel.
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Thank plunger head, aka ALGORE, for the new toilets which are soon to be outdated toilets.
Since 1.6 gallon flushes don't work, you simply
hold the algore lever for a really thorough evacuation. This however uses more water than the
pre-plunger head versions. We now hear that the
govermin will be reverting back to the old specs.
The "$$$contributions" necessary for scrapping the
1.6 plunger head versions and installing new
production lines for the old versions will be
generated by punching algore--3 swings for $1.00
or 10 swings for 50 cents. Can you say USSA????
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Fine Home Building's Breaktime site has enough trouble with civility talking about construction without the need to bring hate to it's posts I would think? Please? And anyone who needs to post so anonymously to be able to have the courage to post such hate...well...its a sorry state of affairs....
Please,,,Sean has not invoked his power to stop what he feels shouldn't be part of his domain, but if this type of posts happens much more, I'm sure he will stop it one way or another.
Please, Please, No hate, no one using the word spelled with the letters...i-g-n-o-r-a-n-t, such a negative term and it reflects much more on the user than the user's intended victum....
Please all, really please be nicer,
Jack : )
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Reply to Mr. Jack: We think levity was the thrust
and not civility in the hilarious ALGORE plunger
head piece. Mockery of this fellow is done constantly due to his ineptitude. The real problem is toilets that don't empty as well as the old ones. We too have heard that a fix is in the works, most likely involving more gallonage.
Keep smiling.
Henderson
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Henderson,
Fine, except I don't think Gore is necessarily the culprit in this case. The National Energy Policy Act, passed in 1992 while Al Gore was a Senator campaigning for VP, wah a House bill.
By the way, the statistics showing a decrease in residential water usage since the bill was enacted have failed to note corresponding behavioral changes in the population in general. An example is that the aveage shower time has decreased, which would cause a consumption drop even if the 2.5 gpm showerhead weren't mandated. The percentage of the population that continues to run their showers until they're out of hot water hasn't changed, by the way.
*S,Despise...is a word that's used to create levity where you're from?...NO email address anonymous poster (not willing to stand behind acts?)...And What's politics and Al Gore got to do with this....All products can be bought in all forms...I heard about bad toilets for years...needed two for my home last year...asked if saleman to recommend one that works well...and then bought, installed and used them now for over a year...they work all the time for me and have only had one stop up caused by a person who admits to stuffing up any john he sits on...Happily using less gallons,Jack : )
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In all fairness to the Poster Boy for Dry Rot, these things were around long before Algor bought his way to Washington, and will be around for a while after he leaves. (22 months, almost to the day. But Don't tell him, we're going to keep it a big surprise until November 2000!) He's got stuff planned that'll make a plugged toilet look like a pleasant dream. So, beat him up. But, sign your name. Remember Jack, we're making fun of the MORALLY handicapped here.
Regards, Buck
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Buck,
I love politics as much as anyone and I love Fine Home Building....but this is the first time I 've had to mention both in the same sentence....
Like my dishes served separately, unless it's called goulash,
Jack : )
ps- Buck...question...freemail email address...instead of at your isp...to be semi-anonymous?
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I've been planning this house forever and working on it for even longer. I thank you experts for answering my millions of questions. Never knew this site existed and I've gone crazy looking for some of the answers. Seems like I have been having a new post each day. Course I could just go ahead and post the million at one time. Anyway, thanks for all your help.
My architect says because of the new laws re 1 1/2 gallon flushing toilets, I should consider a 3" main line instead of 4". He said there's been problems with insufficient pressure in the main lines to adequately keep them flushed out. One of my best friends is a plumbing contractor and tells me not to even consider a 3" line.
The house is 3 bedrooms, five baths (2 people, 2 dogs).
What do you think?
Thanks again.
Linda
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Rehabbed my bathroom a couple of years ago in 100 year old house with old rough iron waste pipes. The size of the bathroom called for a 10 inch rough in toilet. The very small 1.6 American Standard toilet I installed has delivered even the largest of gifts to the city without a second flush or plunger in sight. The toilet creates the strongest flush I have ever seen. I say go with the quality manufacturers and you should be ok.