I’m moving a dryer from the basement up to the kitchen.
Is it okay to use 10-2 for the dryer?
The dryer cord is a three prong.
If I use 10-2 the ground would have to serve as the neutral. I guess that just doesn’t sound right.
Any recommendations?
Thanks for any input.
^^^^^^
S N A F U (Situation Normal: All Fouled Up)
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Replies
...if you have to ask...
But anyway, dryers require 10-3 because there are 120V and 240V loads (the fan motor and heating coils respectively).
Be careful.
Scott.
Always remember those first immortal words that Adam said to Eve, “You’d better stand back, I don’t know how big this thing’s going to get.”
"Any recommendations?"
You could always get some 10/3 w/ground and do it right. <rolls eyes>
I bought 10-3 and it's what I'm using I was just asking for opinions (rolls eyes).
What is the purpose of 10-2 (rolls eyes) ? I'm just curious and wanting to learn (rolls eyes)^^^^^^
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10-2 is for things like A/C units, or maybe some large equipment that has no 120v accessories, where no seperate neutral is needed.You realize that you need to change to a 4 prong outlest and plug too, right? I actually have a brand new spare 4 prong plug and 6' cord laying around. If you want it, e-mail me your address.
10/2 used in baseboard heaters, water heaters, runs too long for 12 ga....Mind you, i'm not an electrician, i only play one inside my own house.
I talked to an electrician while at home depot and he said he used 10-2 for "old work"
He said he used 10-3 for "new work" and for anything that had to be "up to code"
He was buying 10-2 for a dryer while I was there. He said he has done many this way.
I'm going with the 10-3 and the new plug and new cord
Thanks for all the responses!^^^^^^
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Yeah, he's wrong. If you're pulling new cable it should be 3+ground. Same for an electric range.
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi
There's a guy across the road with a master electrician's license who told me my car battery wouldn't take a charge while sitting on my concrete floor.
at one time long ago that was true... thats when auto batteries were tar & wood and "leaked" since they started usuing plastic cases it's no longer true but it's one of those old tales that won't die... btw my master sparkey said the same thing...
p
I suppose i wouldn't have been so surprised to hear it coming from a layperson, but from a licensed electrician...a bit alarming.
Some places require little to get a license. In other places it is harder to get a contractor's license than to get a nationallly recognized certification.
Update:
I ran 10-3 with ground from the breaker box to the new dryer location.
I installed a new four prong outlet/receptacle.
I bought a new four prong cord to replace the old three prong dryer cord.
Problem: The dryer is one year old. It is made for only a three prong - three wire dryer cord.
The dryer has black and red terminals for both of the cord's hot wires.
The dryer's third and only remaining terminal is for the neutral.
I now have a fourth wire in the cord (green) and no place to attach it on the dryer.
Any suggestions?
Thanks for any input.
^^^^^^
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http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/switchoutlet/dryer/index.htm
"Problem: The dryer is one year old. It is made for only a three prong - three wire dryer cord."Don't believe that.Not if it is a UL approved appliance designed to be sold in the US.Look for a green screw. Or a stud with a ground symbol beside it.Is there anykind of wire or jump that is connected to the N terminal. It has to be removed.What is the brand and model number of the dryer?
Thank you for the excellent info !^^^^^^
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I only google the stuff. The people who make the effort to put it on the Net...those folks deserve a round of applause!Happiness is a warm dryer. I've been laundering madly today, running the dryer into living space to get the humidity high enough that stroking the pets doesn't land us all in the ER. I'm also starting to suspect they put an addictive substance in Bounce dryer sheets...stuff's like catnip...
I went to the website you provided and found the instructions for installing a four wire cord.The brass grounding strap (used for three wire cords) was removed easily and the four wire cord has been installed per the manufacturers instructions.Thanks again to everyone.^^^^^^
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The next step in my project is installing two walls and a door to enclose the washer and dryer and put them in their own little "closet"The width of the closet will be about 6'6" so there's plenty of room as the washer and dryer width are only 5'.There will be room on one end (about 14" to 16") for vacuum cleaner, brooms, storage, etc. I will install a 6 ft sliding door.My question concerns the depth of the closet.I went to a friend's home yesterday and measured her closet. The inside dimensions were 40" for the DEPTH. Her home was built in the late 1980'sThrough careful planning and design I have been able to keep both the washer and dryer very close to the wall.I set the washer and dryer in place and they are only 2" or 3" from the wall due to my expertise and careful planning.The dryer will exhaust straight out the wall (exterior wall).This means I can make my closet only 30" or 31" deep and save valuable space in this kitchen. Are there any formal objections from anyone if I make the depth of the closet only 30" ?Tahnks for any input.^^^^^^
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Job has been finished and just wanted to pass along some info to anyone who's interested.I moved a washer and dryer from a basement to a kitchen. In this particular house the kitchen has a crawl space under it. The home was built in 1976I removed a six foot sliding patio door and closed in the opening and then placed the washer and dryer in this area in the kitchen.I built a closet to put the washer and dryer in.I worked by myself and the job took about 100 hours and the cost of the materials was about %1,000.I ended up putting some unusual doors which were purchased at HD.The doors are heavy six foot sliding interior doors. They have a dark wood frame and the panel is frosted glass.^^^^^^
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See Mistress Splinter's reference. Remove the jumper between neutral and ground and route the ground wire to ground.
People never lie so much as before an election, during a war, or after a hunt. --Otto von Bismarck
It is a GE dryer purchased one year ago for $229 at Sams Club.
Model Number DX2300EE1WW
Serial Number SH780902A
Thanks!^^^^^^
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http://www.geappliances.com/You can do a search for Use and Care Manuals for that model number.
They don't allow direct links.But since I already downloaded it I up upload the installation instructions. It shows you where the connection is and the strap to remove.
I see why your screen name is fix it! You get you advice in the aisles of HD from questionable 'electricians' who don't worry about doing it to code? That guy is a hack who ought to have his license taaken away if he has onework like that will need somebody to fix it
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks everyone ! I'll try to check codes next time before asking any silly questions !^^^^^^
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Let that be a lesson to you! If you need or want a beating this is the place. No question goes unpunished. You need a thick skin here. Other than that, it is a great place and you typcially get great help along this your bruise backside. LOL!
Lol, I love this place.^^^^^^
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"I talked to an electrician while at home depot and he said he used 10-2 for "old work"He said he used 10-3 for "new work" and for anything that had to be "up to code"He was buying 10-2 for a dryer while I was there. He said he has done many this way.I'm going with the 10-3 and the new plug and new cord"ACtually 10-2 is not legal for "old work".Here is what the code say in allow a 3 wire connection instead of 4 wire."The grounded conductor (aka the neutral) is INSULATED, or the counted conductor is uninsulated and part of a Type SE service entrance cable and the branch circuit originates at the serivce entrance."I but he was buying 10-2 NM (Romex) which has 2 insulated wires and a bare equipment ground conductor (aka "the ground") and not SE cable.What the code is saying is that you can use the neutral conductor to also ground the metal case in older dryer/stove installations.But you can NOT use the ground as the neutral.Edited 10/30/2006 8:55 pm by BillHartmann to add NOT.
Edited 11/1/2006 9:40 am by BillHartmann
Thank you for the excellent info. ^^^^^^
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"What the code is saying is that you can use the neutral conductor to also ground the metal case in older dryer/stove installations."
Good info Bill.
Is it know at what point does an "older" installation become "new"? (other than 1996 or 1997 or whenever the 4 wire installation became code)
Does that mean you could replace the outlet you can keep the 10-2 w ground? What if you just shortened the run by moving the outlet to a wall closer to the panel, would it still be older work or new work?
Just curious.
TFB (Bill)
Basically an "older" installation becomes "new" when you install new wire.Or look at it this way: When pulling new wire for a dryer or range, why would you not use 3+ground, which is safe, vs 2+ground, which is unsafe?
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi
Do not replace the 3-pin outlet with a 4-pin (without replacing the wire). That creates a false sense of security. Replace the pigtail if you must. (If you install a 3-pin pigtail on a unit that previously had a 4-pin pigtail, you must add a bonding jumper between the ground and neutral terminals.)
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi
Four wires has been the standard since about 1980.
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi
"Four wires has been the standard since about 1980."See my reply.
I don't recommend this and I won't be doing it on my current project,
but I have seen a free standing range-oven wired directly. In other words there was no cord and outlet - just the heavy wire coming up through the floor and connected to the oven with enough slack that you could slide the oven out to behind it.^^^^^^
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I tried to word my reply so that it did not get into trying to define what is "old work" and what is "new work".What work you are allowed to do on an existing 3 wire installation would be upto the local inspector. Assuming that it does not have a bias on way or another it would probably be based on the difficulty of changing it.Replacing a receptacle "should" be OK (but see below*). And I would vote for allow moving it where you don't need to extend the cable.The NEC did not require the 4-wire installation until the 96 revision. But I believe that many local amendments did.Here are comments from the 2005 NEC Handbook (it is the code, plus additional comments and background)."Prior to the 1996 Code, use of the grounded circuit
conductor as a grounding conductor was permitted for all installations. In many instances, the wiring method was
service-entrance cable with an uninsulated neutral conductor covered by the cable jacket. Where Type SE cable was used
to supply ranges and dryers, the branch circuit was required to originate at the service equipment to avoid neutral current
from downstream panelboards on metal objects, such as pipes or ducts."*"In addition, a revision in this provision for the 2005 Code permits application of the exception only where the existing branch-circuit wiring method does not provide an equipment grounding conductor. There are many shall existing branch circuits in which nonmetallic sheath cable with three insulated circuit conductors and a bare equipment grounding conductor was used to supply a range or clothes
dryer. The bare equipment grounding conductor was simply where an equipment grounding conductor is not present in not used because it was permitted to ground the equipment with the insulated neutral conductor of the NM cable. This "extra" conductor was on account of the fact that the bare conductor in a Type NM cable is to be used only as an circuit for these appliances shall be permitted to be grounded (neutral) conductor in the same manner mitted for an uninsulated conductor in the service entrance."
Is the reason for using 10-3 rather than 10-2 based upon reducing shock hazard as the result of touching the metal dryer?^^^^^^
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The whole concept, as developed over the years, is that you should have an EGC that does not normally carry current. Thus any equipment connected to or bonded to the egc is at the same potential.That is the reason that 4 wire is required for a sub-panel.With that kind of system then there will be no voltage difference between say the refigerator and the kitchen faucets.Now for some reasons of history (some say to save copper during WWII, but I am not sure of that) stoves and dryers where allowed to use only 3 wires. And in a 3 wire system the metal case of the equipment was bonded to the neutral.Now the neutral is a current carrying conductor and thus will have voltage drop and thus soem difference between it and other grounded equipment.However, the amount of neutral current is realatively small compared with the hots so the voltage drops will be miniumum. Also for something like a stove or dryer once installed properly the failure of the neutral connection is rare. But a failure of the neutral will put the case at 120 volts.But going to a 4-wire system eliminates even those small voltge differences and gets an independent system to ground the case even with a failure in the neutral system.
To add to that, as a teen I remember getting shocks off of our electric range (3-pin plug). I investigated and found that the neutral/ground prong was not making very good connection. Normally this was not a problem, as everything in the range, including the timer, used 240V, so there was no neutral current.However, there was a "convenience outlet" on the stove (I don't even know if these are allowed anymore), and the toaster was plugged into that. Strangely the toaster wasn't working very well (because the neutral connection of the outlet was just tied to the range frame, and the entire range was at 120V, more or less, when the toaster was turned on).I removed the plug and spread the neutral pin a bit, fixing the problem, but it made me aware of the hazard and I've not been happy with the 3-pin range/dryer plugs (or range convenience outlets) since then.
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi
Thanks for the excellent info.
^^^^^^
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"To add to that, as a teen I remember getting shocks off of our electric range (3-pin plug). I investigated and found that the neutral/ground prong was not making very good connection. Normally this was not a problem, as everything in the range, including the timer, used 240V, so there was no neutral current."Strange that the timer was 240.But are you sure that all of the buners where 240.But older stoves used burners with several segments (2 or 3?) along with a 5 or 7 position switch. It switched in different elements and in series and parallel and between 120 & 240.http://www.tpub.com/content/construction/14026/css/14026_215.htmI don't know when the infinit heat controls where started.When we moved we got a new GE stove with dual ovens (40"). One of the burners was constant tempature with a capulary tube on a springloaded button in the center of the burner. And a sliding tempature control. The other 3 burners had push button selectors for different power levels. I think that was 57.That control went out several times. The last time I replaced it they no longer made the consant temp system and the replacement was an infinit heat control. I am guessing mid 60's.
Pretty sure (though my memory is of course suspect after about 40 years). I had the thing apart and recall being surprised that there was no connection to the neutral for other than the convenience outlet.
Seven blunders of the world that lead to violence: wealth without work, pleasure without conscience, knowledge without character, commerce without morality, science without humanity, worship without sacrifice, politics without principle. --Mahatma Gandhi
Thanks Bill, Great information as usual.
TFB (Bill)
"The NEC did not require the 4-wire installation until the 96 revision. But I believe that many local amendments did."
Not to get too far off topic, but the other day I got a flyer here at the office from an electrical equipment distributor that has a map of the US showing which version of the NEC is used in which states. Most of the country is using the 2005 revision, but there are still some states on the 2002 revision or even earlier - the map indicates that some parts of Hawaii are still using the 1993 revision!
One small city in the Chicago area is using 1990, but it has the typical Chicago mods that require conduit. But other things like GFCI's are still at the 1990 level.And one near me has more current version. But they modified it to only require kitchen GFCI's next to the sink, I think that 1996 wording.
Bill,I thought I understood this thread until getting to your last line here:<I but he was buying 10-2 NM (Romex) which has 2 insulated wires and a bare equipment ground conductor (aka "the ground") and not SE cable.What the code is saying is that you can use the neutral conductor to also ground the metal case in older dryer/stove installations.But you can use the ground as the neutral.>Your saying, in that case, the 10-2 w/Gr Romex could be used for the dryer, with the ground wire as the neutral?Thanks.
Sorry, I went back and edit it.A case of my mind "working" faster than I can type.It should read "But you can NOT use the ground as the neutral".
Thanks, makes sense.I've got a similar situation to the OP. Lots of extra 10-2 w/G around. Any reason I can't just run a single insulated #10, along with the 10-2? Would it need to be in conduit?Thanks.
All wires for a circuit are to be in a single cable or raceway (conduit).Not sure how the an inspector would treat runing a cable and separate wire in a conduit.
If you are going to do conduit, strip the cables out of the sheath. There might be a question of how much is packed into the conduit and/or heat build up if you include the sheathing. And the inspector probably won't have a way to determine if it is ok or not. Easier to just remove them.
Well that it technically incorrect also.First there is no problem with heat built up with cable in conduit. But it is a common misconception. Thus I would not be surprised to see an inspector question it.The real problem is that the conduit has to be sized as through the NM was single wire the diameter of the largest axis of the cable.But the wires in the cable are not marked for individual usage. Only the cable is marked.
That's interesting. Is wire mold treated differently than conduit, since you can (at least could) run romex to a junction point and then strip the sheathing away to run the individual conductors in the wire mold?
I think that the whole question gets down to the UL listing on each product and then it is up to inspect interpretations of "workmanship" and "following manufactures instructions".With Romex that is END is stripped and the wires runs several feet in wiremold you can still go back to the romex sheating and see the markings.But if you just have several wires that where stripped out of "nowhere" there is no way to show what the insulation, tempature rating, UL listing is.But in most cases no one will ever question it.
I was figuring that, if you stuff the romex in the conduit, there is less air space to dissipate the heat, hence you would need larger conduit to be able to maintain the same heat level.But the labeling issue makes sense, though I hadn't thought of the individual conductors not being labeled. Seems like they should be.
I talked to an electrician while at home depot ..............
Was this electrician wearing an orange apron? (giggle, snort, choke, gasp, wheeze, lmao)
If you run new cable, it should be 3 wires plus ground. Put a new 4-ping "pigtail" on the dryer. For existing wiring, the 3-pin plug is "grandfathered".
use that new 8-5 wire. you cant go wrong. its pink colored just remember to keep the exhaust short and clean
I like the stainless braided wire, with the anodized connectors.
Never heard of it. Sounds expensive^^^^^^
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I just gotta ask, where is your "area"?
HINT: fill in your profile.
I am amazed that four wire devices won't pass inspection, any where in the US.
"In a lot of areas (like mine), 3 prong plugs are required, with a separate external ground that is hardwired to the chassis and a good ground."
I want to know EXACTLY what area that is that has a such a modifications to the code.
Certainly it is not a LOT of areas.
"The argument for this arrangement is that the dryer is grounded even when the plug is not in the receptacle. "
That is the most idiotic things that I have every heard of.
Who cares if it grounded when it is not plugged in.
I was at Sears last week and they had 50 dryers all lined up. And they WHERE GROUNDED. Of courese they where plugged in either.
And I wented to Lowes and I saw hundreds and hundreds of the metal boxes that where grounded. And load centers that where grounded, and water heaters that weren't grounded. But of course there was not thing connected to them. But based on your "LOGIC" they should have a separate ground.
If this scheme of not using the ground on a receptacle, but rather running a separate ground wire is go great then the inspectors must require it on all equipment. Cut the ground pin off the refigerator, dishwasehr, clothes washer, etc and then run a separate ground wire.
And I want to know where this "good ground" is that you are running the dryer to?
"It's not a modification to the code at all, just an interpretation of NEC with a bit of "local flavor"."
The only local "flavor" must be in the moonshine that the inspector is drinking.
That is nothing in the code that allows anything like you claim.
"It's actually pretty common in the midwest."
Well "midwest" is not a very specific location. There are several states in the Midwest.
One of which is IL.
The code in varies to Chiago, which as I understand it is there completley own code.
One of the village in the Chicago are use 1990 NEC, with mods to require conduit for most wiring to outstate areas that has no codes at all.
"Didn't you ever wonder why when you buy a dryer, the pigtail is sold separately, while when you buy other appliances, the cord comes with it?"
No I did not know that at all.
It is very simple. The NEC allows 3 wire connections for existing installations that have appropriate 3 wire branch circuits.
And requires 4 wire connects for new branch circuits or existing 4 wire branch circuits.
Would it work to use the 10-2 your have to add extra circuit and outlets in your house? Seems like with older houses they all need more circuits. Especially in the kitchen.My son has electric guitars, amplifiers, huge speakers, etc etc and when their band practices they have three guitars and a drummer. I think they are pulling a lot of juice.My son thinks his equipment for his guitar alone is 7-8 amps.I may need to run heavy circuit and use 10-2 wire for all their music equipment.^^^^^^
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It would work if I needed other circuits. Just don't, at least at the moment. <g>