Replies

1. 
   kkearney | Feb 27, 2002 06:44am | #1

   *
   Ralph,
   We have lots of heart pine here in La. Here is one source http://www.albanywoodworks.com/heartpine.html.
   Not cheap but don't have to fudge the finish so much.

   KK

1. 
   piffin_ | Feb 27, 2002 07:03am | #2

   *Ther is Heart pine available but not in the clear quality of a hundred years ago. Getting harder ewvery year to get it but it's still worth the effort. SYP is just not close for this purpose. There are several ads in FHB and This Old House Journal for it. They all write their own specs and grade descriptions so I write my own in the purchase order, like " min lenghths of continous useable 6' random lengths to 18'. Clear vertical grain with density at least twelve growth rings per inch. No more than ten percent yellow wood" etc. or whatever fits the bill for the floor you are matching. Be specific and you can hold them to it. Believe it or not, my last order came from Lumber liquidators acting as a lumber broker. I think it was about 1200 sq ft at about ten bucks. Time it was done he said he wished he'd quoted twenty. In this photo the step at the upper left of the shot is SYP 1x12 carefully selected for little face grain as possble and tinted with a colonial pine stain to bring it closer to the heart pine. Set in opposition as a step it works but before using it in midfield to patch i would go with clear vertical fir first if you can't find the real thing or time is a factor.

1. 
   cls | Feb 27, 2002 07:28am | #3

   *Ralph, I'm not a carpenter, as you know but...I have 100 year old heart pine floors. When I had them refinished 4 years ago, my finisher had a similar problem. He as able to get a close match, but it wouldn't have the same "age" to it, and there were several places that had to be take out and replaced. So he - with our permission - took the wood from the floor of one of my closets, used that to fix the floors in the main rooms, then used the newer stuff in the closet where it wouldn't show. I am very pleased with the result - no one ever looks at the floor in a closet, and because there's no light in there you can't tell the wood is actually "newer".Don't know if that helps, but I thought it was a clever solution.

1. 
   Rich_Watkins | Feb 28, 2002 01:30am | #4

   *Piffin,That floor is beautiful. What finish did you use?Rcih

1. 
   Bucksnort_Billy | Feb 28, 2002 03:39am | #5

   *Ralph, mountainlumber.com, joinery.com, and then, Goodwin is in your neck of the woods (har har) heartpine.com (how do I make these suckers blue?). The new and/or remilled stuff will still take a good bit of time time to oxidize to that incredible color...

2. 
   Ralph_Wicklund | Feb 28, 2002 04:17am | #6

   *Will wonders never cease!After several hours on the phone chasing one lead after another I found a heart pine distributer right here in River City.Only one of the big lumber yards had a clue as to where I could get what I needed and I would still have to get 6" T&G, wait a week and cut it down to 2 1/4.Finally, when I was calling one of the local millworks, the owner said, "I'm running a batch right now for a guy. Here's his name and phone number".Turns out he buys, salvages, cleans, remills and sells and installs whatever can be made with antique heart pine. Oh, happy day.Now I'll only have to wait a hundred years to get a natural match patina.

3. 
   piffin_ | Feb 28, 2002 04:51am | #7

   *I'll be by in a hundred years to share a good bottle of well aged heart pine resin and comiserate then. I'm glad you found the right stuff. You'll be so happy you did too.Rich, That lower floor is some we remilled down from 3-1/4" wide elsewhere in the house. The upper is original from 1896 but refinished twice since then (to the best of my knowledge. We lowered the floor a step and extended the room about 42" wider plus a bay.The finish is an oil based polyurethene - three coats of gloss. I don't know the product name used by that finisher but we have similar results with any oil based poly gloss. The oil rreally brings out the amber tones that arre a trademark of the beauty in heart pine.

4. 
   Rick_Lambeth | Feb 28, 2002 05:33am | #8

   * Ralph, Piffin is right about the need to be specific with the suppliers of heart pine flooring. I do historic work in North Carolina and got stuck with some very marginal flooring from one of the suppliers mentioned by Bucksnort Billy. Check the stuff out before you get a bunch of money tied up in it. If it doesn't pan out, I've got 3000 Sq ft. of quarter sawn heart pine I personally had re milled from old timbers, that I would be willing to part with. There are few materials that match its beauty.

5. 
   piffin_ | Feb 28, 2002 05:57am | #9

   *Really beware of seller written designations such as "rustic"

6. 
   Ralph_Wicklund | Feb 28, 2002 06:00am | #10

   *I whacked off a piece (of pine) to see how it would scan.

7. 
   Rick_Lambeth | Feb 28, 2002 06:39am | #11

   *You can get arrested for doing that around here. Looks good Ralph.

8. 
   Bucksnort_Billy | Mar 01, 2002 01:42am | #12

   *Hey Rick, which one? I've dealt with all the ones I mentioned, and gotten very nice stuff. I also got the feeling they would have replaced anything I didn't feel acceptable. I'm in the Old North State too, Chapel Hill, where are you?

9. 
   Bucksnort_Billy | Mar 01, 2002 01:59am | #13

   *Man, I think I just broke my cheapo little camera trying to get longleaf heart pine and yellow pine in the same frame. Dang! Too bad I can't get my floor and table in the scanner. Anyway, from your great picture, that looks like that could be yellow pine. I have seen some antique yellow pine mixed in with heart pine orders. Is that a pic of the flooring you're trying to replace?

10. 
    Ralph_Wicklund | Mar 01, 2002 02:36am | #14

    *I'm taking the guy at his word that what he sold me is antique heart pine. I don't know the original source of the wood and don't know the difference between antique yellow pine and long leaf heart pine just by looking at the product. I have a sample coming from Albany Woodworks so then I'll be able to compare the raw wood. The scan I posted shows a little more tint, at least on my monitor, than the actual piece. Anybody care to drop by for coffee and offer an analysis?

11. 
    piffin_ | Mar 01, 2002 02:58am | #15

    *It looks like heart pine to me but not verticle grain quartersawn.The attachment shows face grain heart pine at my house. I had to cull about 25% out of an order and this is where it went.

12. 
    piffin_ | Mar 01, 2002 03:03am | #16

    *When we added this fireplace to a room, the hearth surrond got done with yellow pine while the existing flooring was heart pine.

13. 
    piffin_ | Mar 01, 2002 03:11am | #17

    *When you cut heart pine, you get a fairly strong turpentine smell, especially on rip cuts. It will gum up a sanding disc quickly from the resin.Yellow pine - antique or not has mostly yellow wood with growth rings further apart than heart though the antique is closer than contemporary because modern plantations space the trees for maximum efficient growth.

14. 
    Bucksnort_Billy | Mar 01, 2002 03:12am | #18

    *Looks yellowey to me, but then I'm bettin' you're the guy passed out on the floor with the black coat...

15. 
    Bucksnort_Billy | Mar 01, 2002 03:20am | #19

    *What am I missing in Ralph's photo that doesn't look like you just described? Yellow, growth rings far apart... I'm not trying to give you shit, I just happen to be a pine freak... maybe I need a new calculator to add it up?

16. 
    Ralph_Wicklund | Mar 01, 2002 03:23am | #20

    *We call SYP that smells like turpentine lighter knot. Great for starting campfires. Don't know if you can classify a board by it's resin filling. Where's that arborist when you need him?

17. 
    Ralph_Wicklund | Mar 01, 2002 03:31am | #21

    *How many growth rings per inch tells you this would or would not be heart or yellow pine? I'll see if I can make the picture truer to the actual color of the wood. Rings on the end of this particular board are about 45º.

18. 
    Bucksnort_Billy | Mar 01, 2002 04:02am | #22

    *Ralph, I dunno about a growth ring test or the ring angle. Just depends how it was run through the sawmill. I don't think quarter sawing pine was given a whole bunch of attention 100 years ago. Longleaf and yellow are different colors, in my experience. I love both of them, but they are different. I have dyed yellow to get that heart pine look, but don't think it would hold up to foot traffic...

19. 
    piffin_ | Mar 01, 2002 04:14am | #23

    *Growth ring density is only one of several indications. I can't tell what the density of sample Ralph shows is without seeing it from the end. When it is face grain cut like that instead of quarter sawn the new wood is spiraling away from the face. Colour looks amber enough to call heart to me. I notice that my photos post slightly different colours than I'm used to seeing too. Most seem a little darker. Who turned down the lights?We can all agree that we've lost a fine resource when they logged out the last of these virgins.

20. 
    Ralph_Wicklund | Mar 01, 2002 05:00am | #24

    *Try this

21. 
    Bucksnort_Billy | Mar 01, 2002 05:08am | #25

    *Actually, there are still stands of longleaf heart pine still growing in Florida...and not all of its demise is due to logging. Weirdly enough, wildfire control has had a lot to do with the non-rejuvenation of longleaf pine. This beautiful wood could be brought back, or not...

22. 
    piffin_ | Mar 01, 2002 05:12am | #26

    *Still looks like heart pine to me. Is it easy to score with your fingernail? That would make it more likely yellow pine. Heart pine is really hard. Some old timers around here call it hard pine, following the phonetic pronunciation. hearet and yellow are first cousins so the family similarities are strong This sample doesn't seem like prime old growth though. It comes from a young tree which grew fast in its first twenty years. See the wider rings near the right where they curve a tight radius? They close up at the left where the tree is older and larger. BTW, your scanner is doing an excellent job!

23. 
    piffin_ | Mar 01, 2002 05:18am | #27

    *Yup,I'm aware that there are approximately 150,000 acres of true longleaf pine left in the country but most of it is on preserves or in plantations. Plantation grown will never provide rings as tight and wood as hard as the old growth virgin stuff.There are still Buffalo in the country too but it ain't too easy to walk into a restaurant and order up a buff steak for dinner.Hope you're still viewing this as a discussion and not an argument, It's been good but my daughter needs online now. G'nite!

24. 
    Rick_Lambeth | Mar 01, 2002 07:31am | #28

    *Hey Bucksnort, I'm not far away , in Louisburg, just North of Wake Forest. Ralph's piece is a tough guess. The "Heart Pine" I got came from the Joinery and was a mix of true long-leaf heart pine, heart douglas fir, and old growth SYP. They of course defend their material with the justification that because it is cut fromthe heart of the tree, it is Heart Pine. The salesman is no longer with them. As a side-note I never heard the arborists report on the piece of heart douglas fir I sent back with him to the factory

25. 
    Rick_Lambeth | Mar 01, 2002 07:38am | #29

    *If my scanner wasn't down I would scan a piece of the pine I had milled from the timbers of the 150 -year old house we had the dubious honor of dismantling. For anyone interested, it was a Greek revival monster that had been butchered in 1905 and was slated to be condemned. All Materials were salvaged to be used in a replica of a New Orleans Greek Revival style house. At the current time that project is on hold until the stock market turns around. The materials are stored in 3 45 foot storage containers and my crew and I are scrambling for work.

26. 
    Bucksnort_Billy | Mar 02, 2002 01:22am | #30

    *Rick, You've got some neat, old houses round there...Piffin, you must be arguing with someone else, I'm discussing...and disgusting...Ralph, here's some bad pictures of pines I know and love...

27. 
    Bucksnort_Billy | Mar 02, 2002 01:33am | #31

    *Yellow pine steps...

28. 
    Bucksnort_Billy | Mar 02, 2002 01:40am | #32

    *Water based aniline dye on yellow pine...

29. 
    Rick_Lambeth | Mar 02, 2002 03:07am | #33

    *Snort, This area is littered with them. Almost every dirt path in Franklin and Warren counties ends at an old house. Every winter I notice a few I hadn't seen before. I wish more people would take the initiative to fix them rather than moving double-wides in front of them letting the homeplace rot into the ground.

30. 
    Ralph_Wicklund | Mar 02, 2002 04:45am | #34

    *Job is on hold. The biddy's at the church are under the impression that they are going to get a complete screening and coat of poly for the price of the repair. Without actually measuring the hall I think they are going to be about 5K short.Anyhow...... went searching for the answer to the big question - How do you make the new wood match the old?Got an answer and went down to the paint store with my sanded sample to check it out.The original formula was to try a mix of Minwax stains with McClosky Early American, top coat with Zinsser Amber Shellac and finish off with oil poly.Store didn't carry McClosky so we shook up some Minwax Early American and applied that. Then wiped on a coat of Amber Shellac.The color match on both early and late wood was remarkable (perfect, to these old eyes) and although I didn't put any poly on it I'm guessing that I'm going to have an excellent finished match. I hope they don't ask to have some dings stomped in to make it really authentic looking.Anybody else try that combination yet? Results?

31. 
    Rick_Lambeth | Mar 02, 2002 05:27am | #35

    *Ralph, I've done that same kind of stain approach before with customers who insisted on an instant solution, but have often wondered how long it would take the new floor to darken noticeably more than the existing. Don't have a clue on what to do about it; just tryin' to keep the customer satisfied.

32. 
    Bucksnort_Billy | Mar 03, 2002 02:40am | #36

    *I've always shied away from staining floors. I've seen some that got heavy use and abuse start showing thier natural colours. They did look great when they were first finished, though...Rick, I've seen a few of those beauties you're talking about, listed in the Historical Preservation News. I sure wish they were closer...

33. 
    Stephen_Ortado | Mar 06, 2002 07:20am | #37

    *OK, so here is a very handy tip for refinishing floors to match. Start off with a coat of shellac. The "clear" or white will not change the color much; the "amber" or orange will. You can blend a little orange in bit by bit to get the hue needed. Cover this coat with an interfacing coat of de-waxed shellac (a sealer) and top-coat with two coats of waterborne polyurethane (respirator required for this one) Your floor will have a true patinated color that does not obscure the grain at all. It really works. Honest.

34. 
    jcallahan | Mar 06, 2002 03:46pm | #38

    *BB, what are the visual differences between longleaf and regular SYP?

35. 
    Arthur_Geetersloh | Mar 06, 2002 07:42pm | #39

    *Has anyone had any experience with The Joinery Co., http://www.joinery.com in North Carolina? Since last year they have been having a "super inventory sale" with "All sales final". I've been especially interest in their Multilayer Flooring. Are they going out of business?

36. 
    Bucksnort_Billy | Mar 08, 2002 03:06am | #40

    *SYP is yellower. If you carfully pick out your material you can find new syp that has similar grain matches to longleaf, but it just doesn't oxidize to that toasty, mellow honey color. I love syp, my house is loaded with it, but, if I could have afforded old heart pine...there's the rub...

37. 
    Bucksnort_Billy | Mar 08, 2002 03:09am | #41

    *I've only gotten good stuff from The Joinery Co. Don't know anything about multilayer flooring, caveat emptor...

38. 
    Jeff_J._Buck | Mar 08, 2002 03:16am | #42

    *type http://www. before them ...like they appear up there in the address bar/thingy...then they turn blue all by them selves.....witchcraft...I think. Jeff

39. 
    Jeff_J._Buck | Mar 08, 2002 03:17am | #43

    *like that one just did.....turned blue all by it's lonesome. Weird....didn't expect that to happen....but guess it should. Jeff

40. 
    Rich_Beckman | Mar 08, 2002 05:50am | #44

    *Jeff,And it's even a good link!!Rich Beckman