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I am constantly getting e-mails from lurkers who want to see more pictures of stairs in progress. So heres a stairway I just started yesterday.
It is a 16 maple tread stairs with the bottom three steps open on both sides. The outside wall radius is 130 inches and the inside radius is 81 inches. Poplar skirts and risers.
I am just now laminating the stringers.
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another view of the forms---The plywood that is screwed to the forms is my in place to assure the actual stringer laminates follow an even curvature.
*another
*another view
*and another
*On the floor to the left of the stair forms, I am scarf jointing the poplar face laminate for the outside stringer.
*I am laminating stairs. How can I avoid using costly bull nosing?
*Kenton: Explain.. costly bullnosing? what is expensive about it? :)
*dats cuz u da man Stan!Mine are finally up but need tons of finishing, sheesh
*Stan,Would you mind describing how you laminate these stringers? I can't picture how you can glue, line up and clamp six boards up (assuming 1/4" x 6 boards)and have them work with the precision that you achieve. Does your wife help in this stage? Also I am in the process of making a drill like you use for spindles. What is the name of that laser? I don't have a maynards. Thanks for your help.Paul
*Very nice work. Do you ever use the flexible track advertised in the magazine for your bottom plates?
*Paul: Notice the blocks on the outside walls? Those keep my laminates in line vertically. I do have my wife help on the glue up. Its the one time during stairbuilding that I move fast. The quicker I roll the glue and get them place in the forms, the more time I have for any trouble. I use titebond glue and like to be done clamping in 30 -45 minutes. I am liberal with the glue as this buys more time and I want to see glue dripping out as I clamp them up. I use 3/8 x 5.5 inch lags going through 5/4 x 2 x 20 inch clamping cauls. I try to never have my studs over 8 inches apart. I use a 1/2 drill and start in the middle of the stringer and work both ways. There are indexing pins aligning my laminates. Everything is rehearsed before the actual glue up. The laminates are all in the forms on their pins, all numbered in order, then taken out and glued up in the same order.I would be lying if I said I never got the laminates mixed up during glue up. Geeeeessssssshhhhhh...it is no fun!. Some of these stringers I have glued up have been 29 feet long. This particular one is only 19 feet as the bottom three steps will be open. Matt: I know the track you are talking about but it would not be applicable to my situatiuon. I build the curved walls in sections and need the curved plates not to flex. They have to be able to hold themselves.
*Paul: Heres a picture of the stairs that had a 29 foot outside stringer. This was taken after they were laminated, and placed back in the forms for assembly.
*Stan, you must have the fastest glue roller in the midwest, like the old saying goes, the couple that glues together sticks together, or something like that.
*Armin: I have been married 27 years. I guess you are right...we are stuck together. haThe way I look sometimes after a glue up, its no wonder we are still together.
*Paul: Heres another view of some laminated stringers I built about a year ago. You can see the outside stringer has been glued up and routed. The outside stringer never leaves the forms. I laminate it, route the top square, profile the stringer edge, and then mortise for the treads and risers. I build the stairs from the top down, stripping the forms as I go. This assures that the outside wall stringer will fit the curved wall that is already built in the house.
*Paul: I do not recall the brand of my laser. It was just an off the shelf laser pointer that I improvised a mount for it to cause the laser beam to be parallel to the bore axis. If you notice in the picture, there is a ball detent switch on it. All I have to do is push it in and the ball detent turns the laser on... pull it out an 1/8 of an inch, and the laser goes off, but stays put in the drill without falling out.
*Stan, If the peices get shaped after they are glued why bother with a dry run? Don't you just cut what ever is long after they dry?Clamping cauls - peices of wood that are lag screwed into the studs? The stringer never leaves the form - even for open treads?These circular stairs just fasinate me.
*Man Stan- How many clamps do you own anyway? You must ask for clamps for your birthday,Christmas,Fathers day,and Valentines Day.Nice job as usual !Bob
*Paul: By "dry run" I meant all the laminates are in the form in order and numbered. Then I take them all out and get two paint rollers and glue trays and flat out lay on the glue. Clamping cauls are rips of 5/4 yellow pine that straddle the laminates and are then lagged on each stud. I also use clamps in between. I leave the stringers in the forms that get mortised for treads and risers. I do take out the open stringers so as I can cut the treads and risers notches and also drill all my pocket screws.Pro;; Thanks again. I do have about 120 clamps, and there are times I am still looking for one more.
*Heres the whole stairs being formed. The set of forms to the left is another curved stairs that I am just starting on. It will have a curved stringer as well as curved risers.
*This is a view looking down from the top of the forms.That little shelf on the left is for my rotary laser. I can reach all points on the inside and outside stringers from that vantage point.
*Another view from high up
*view of both stair projects
*The inside stringer is glued up. Here are a few views of the clamps and clamping cauls used.
*Looking down
*Stan a little off subject, making my laser drill in a few days, can't wait. I'll send you a picture, will be a little different than yours. This will greatly improve the quality of my work, Thanks.
*P Paradis: Cant wait to see it. Hope it works out for you. The biggest trick is aligning it.
*Stan, what kind of a drill bit do you use to drill the holes on an angle.
*Armin: I am assuming you are talking about the drilling the inclined rail.I use spur edged paddle bits that are hand sharpened for each job. I mean really sharp! Nothing like taking a new paddle bit, and giving it an extra edge. I sometimes have to grind the center point extra long, but only on real steep inside rails. This has always worked out nice for me, and especially with the laser keeping my drilled hole plumb.
*Stan: do you use a stop collar on your bits? Because I set up the laser on my drill and it was working great.... till I was to focused to much on the laser dot and went right through the rail :( This probably should have been placed in the dumb mistakes thread. Funny thing is that morning I was thinking that I had never made a mistake in a rail yet. Back to the drawing board.
*P Paradis:Ouch! Sorry to hear about overboring. Actually I have the unique ability of having one eye go up and the other down like those toads in the commercials.Just kidding.....but I drill till the bottom of the paddle bit is fully in the rail. I don't stare constantly at the laser beam, but use it just to keep me in check while drilling. Its automatic after awhile.
*A question and a comment, Stan. Are you using hand-held routers and templates or patterns to do all that mortising in the stringers for the treads and risers? If so, how are you dealing with the curved surfaces? Regarding glue-up time, we used an adhesive by American Cyanamid, Nelson URAC resin adhesive #185, when doing curved laminated work in my house project. A little more gap filling capability than Titebond, a lot more open time, and no problems at all when planing, machining, sanding, or finishing. You mix the liquid with a powder catalyst. Only mix up what you intend to use.
*Gene:I use a three horse makita router....bearing guided flush cutting bit riding on an mdf jig. The jig has kerfs every two inches parallel to the riser lines, so the jig will flex to the curved stringer. On real tight curves, I will even shim my router base so as to warp it to better follow the curvature....most of the time I dont warp the base.
*Ok, so how do you layout the tread and riser line. I assume you do that on the forms using a reference pt. You mentioned a laser level-do you just make a level line using the laser and then move the laser up a distance equal to the riser. I've seen a similar jig in FHB and figured that you cut the tread and riser mortices together and then move to the next step.I'd love to try one on my house but dont have the head room for forms....or the 6 months that it would take to get it right.Great work, love to see your progress shots.
*Brian: I make a story pole that is the exact finish floor to finish floor height. This of course is divided up equally for each tread. There are many ways to use this story pole, but the quickest and most accurate way I have found is to use my Empire rotary laser. It projects a horizontal or vertical line of red laser light. I situate my laser in a spot that reaches as much of the stairs as possible....in this case I could reach all points. I level the laser and make an index mark on the story pole. I then keep the laser on this mark as I go around and transfer the tread heights from the story pole.The risers are just as simple. I have them laid out on the shopfloor, and I just set my laser to throw a vertical plane of light. This plane is lined up with the riser layouts, and then I just mark the inside and outside stringer at the same time. A plumb bob does the same, but so slowly.
*Stan,Not to steal a thread, but you obviously do beautiful work. I am planning to remove crapet from my curved staircase, and install oak to have the staircase match the oak floors I will soon install. Can you steer me towards some good reference materials on staircases that might be helpfull?PS How are the eyes doing? I'm at 4 months now (after the re-do) and still find myself impatient (hyperopia corrected takes a while to stabilize).
*Stan: I had my eyes done Feb. 20th. I went from 20/400 to 20/40 the next day after. One week later I was still 20/40. But the last week I have noticed improvement. I would say I was 20/30 without going to the doctor.I have a unique set up in my shop to determine how many minutes of angle I have with my ghosting images that take awhile to go away. I had 9 minutes of angle of ghosting a week ago, but now it is around 7 minutes. It should go to 0 minutes eventually. If it doesnt, I am going in for an enhancement where they lift my cornea flap, and burn more correction into my eyes. It is too early for that call...about the three month mark. I paid $3500 of my own money for this treatment, and one enhancement is included in that price. If I think they can tweak a little more vision out of my eyes, they are going for it. I had my first test last night at the indoor pistol range. I kept all ten shots in a 2 inch circle at 10 meters. I am framing the target I was so happy about it.Thanks for asking about the eyes...now the stair question. All I can say is ask anything and I will do will tell you my way of attacking it. I dont think you will find much material on how to do your job. The best teacher I have ever found is just looking at completed stairways, scratching my head, and figure away to arrive at the end result.Again, ask anything, anytime.. I am glad to help. Stan
*Glad to see the LASIK is going well. The first time, I went from 20/200 to 20/20 the morning after. Unfortunately, Although I eventually got to 15/20, I could not attain good focus for objects under 10-15 feet. Enhancements are free for life with my doctor, so we went for it. I see sharply in all reading (except very low light) and all the way out to about 100 feet now. I am gaining distance vision slowly (4months since enhancement) but at a loss of reading acuity. Even if it stabilized here, I think I would be satisfied, most of my need for sharp vision is close up anyway.As I stated before, I am interested in placing oak on a stairway that is very sound, and covered with carpet at the time. I was thinking of cutting back the individual stairs' overhang, then laying the oak (either strip with nails/cleats or pre-engineered, glued and toenailed. I would incorporate bull nose pieces at the front of each tread. Since the stairs wind around a curved sheetrock wall, I was thinking of using a 1/4" oak plywood, kerfing the back to allow it to bend. Sound OK so far?The real work of time and patience will be manufacturing a curved handrail to follow the staircase. Although it only covers 9-10 stair treads (the rest are straight sections) I am assuming I will have to fabricate a jig, and laminate thin strips of oak (or a better wood for this?) to do so. What type of glue? thickness of strips? If you separate the angle of the handrail running downward from the curve in the horizontal plane, the downward(vertical) slope seems constant. I am therefore assuming I will only be concerned with the lamination having to curve in one plane instead of two. I will try to get some photos in the next day or so, but let me know your thoughts. Thanks for the guidance.... Stan
*Stan:You wont have to kerf 1/4 inch plywood unless it is a real tight radius. Your handrail can be made with L-shaped jigs clamped to each tread. Normally laminates 1/4 inch will work for you, or just buy some bending rail if you find a profile that you like.I over correct my bending forms a little depending upon radius, and number of laminates. Titebond glue has given me excellent results over the years, or you can also try the setting type.You are twisting as well as bending the laminates around your forms. You can feel the twist as you bend them. The twist in degrees figures out to being equal to the rail inclination angle...for every 90 degrees of rotation. In other words, say you have a 90 degree stairway that is inclined at 36 degrees. You have to twist those laminates 36 degrees as you also must bend them 90 degrees to get them to lay in your bending forms. This info is not necessary to actually know,.....your bending forms are already doing this for you......but it is nice to know the mechanics that is going on.
*Stan,"....Normally laminates 1/4 inch will work for you, or just buy some bending rail if you find a profile that you like. ..."What is "bending rail" ?
*Bending rail is handrail that is made up of 7 to 10 or more laminates that when stacked together, match the profile of solid straight rail. You can get them in many profiles, or you can make your own bending rail from two pieces of straight rail cut out in a sequence that I have posted in the thread about making curved crown.You can also just laminate up a helical curved rail that is rectangular in cross section, and then apply various router bits, or run it through a shaper.
*Stan,What sources carry bending rail?
*Stairparts Inc. Marietta, Georgia.........Stairworld-CanadaFittsMainly just use the search engine and just look for stairparts. I can explain how you can make your own out of two lengths of straight rail....just ask and I will give a very detailed description.
*Stan, I follow your concept of using two sections of straight rail to make a bending rail. I have done this several times to make curved oak trim. My question is how do you keep the profile sections lined up for a curved stair railing. All the bending rail I ever used had a small tongue and groove in the center of the laminations to keep things lined up. Stan, (the other Stan), you should be able to order bending rail from any lumberyard or building center, most of these places stock stair parts from the various manufactures and can order the matching bending rail. Good luck on your project.
*Armin: Golf club joints are what they call the tongue in groove down here. I would cut out blocks of wood with the mirror profile of the handrail top and then clamp these along the way to my L-shaped jigs. It kept them in order.However, I always prefer bending rail with those golf club joints, rather than making my own. The only times I would make my own is when I was not able to obtain a particular rail that was also available in bending rail.
I had to delete these pictures to be able to post more. I will repost them when able to.
No picture icons showed with any of your posts that I looked at on the spiral stairs. I looked at the pistol and rifle pictures ok. Like that curly maple!!!