Replies

1. 
   rasconc | Jan 03, 2006 06:16am | #1

   Your issue is not the receptacles, it is the 14awg wire and 20 amp breaker.  Your advice from the experts will be to put in a 15 amp breaker.  If your gfci is truly a 20 amp , not 20 amp pass through, it will probably be suggested to be replaced.  But I leave this type of advice to those that really know.

2. 
   Dave45 | Jan 03, 2006 06:23am | #2

   I would either go to a 15 amp breaker - or have the wiring reworked.  14 ga wire is rated for 15 amps and 12 ga wire is rated for 20 amps.  Having a mixed circuit (different wire gauges) is never a good idea but if you have one, the breaker needs to be sized for the smallest wire.  In your situation that would be a 15 amp breaker.

   It would be OK to have 12 ga wire in a 15 amp circuit (it's overkill, but it's ok), but it's a big time no-no to have 14 ga wire in a 20 amp circuit.

    

3. 
   marv | Jan 03, 2006 05:09pm | #3

   Its probably OK.  In new construction, the kitchen circuit is 20amp thus requiring a 20amp GFCI.  Its OK to have multiple 15amp duplex outlets on a 20amp circuit (unless there is only one outlet on the circuit as in refrigerator).  The 14ga wire in some of the boxes probably goes to lights.

   You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.

   Marv

1. 
   BillHartmann | Jan 03, 2006 05:25pm | #4

   "The 14ga wire in some of the boxes probably goes to lights."If even if it does go to a light that is not legal either."In new construction, the kitchen circuit is 20amp thus requiring a 20amp GFCI."Only 20 amp FEEDTHROUGH. It does not have to have 20 amp receptacle. IE; the relay for the GFCI has to be rated for 20 amps (along with the terminals, etc).That is the way most of them are marked today, don' tknow if they have historically been that way or not.

1. 
   marv | Jan 03, 2006 08:19pm | #8

   14ga to lights is done all the time in our county.You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.

   Marv

1. 
   BillHartmann | Jan 03, 2006 08:25pm | #9

   "14ga to lights is done all the time in our county."Well there are all kinds of local modification to the NEC.HOWEVER, I doubt that it is legal, even in you area, to put them one of the KITCHEN SMALL APPLIACNE CIRCUITS. That is what this discussion is about.And even if it is not a kitchen appliacne circuit it is still illegal to use #14 on a 20 amp circuit just because it is for "lighting". One reason is that you really don't know how many lights or where it goes.

1. 
   maddog3 | Jan 03, 2006 09:08pm | #10

   one trick was to put ALL the kitchen circuits on 20A brkrs, while the rest of the house was wired for 15A....
   The inspectors would turn off all the 15s and walk around the house checking every opening....of course most houses back then didn't have their own zipcode, or 400A services

2. 
   DanH | Jan 03, 2006 09:12pm | #11

   It might be legal (for fluorescent lights only) if the fixture was considered to provide overcurrent protection (via the ballast). (There's an interesting loophole in the NEC for this.) No way it could be legal for a regular incandescent fixture.
   If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people

   happy?

3. 
   maddog3 | Jan 03, 2006 09:56pm | #13

   it was my understanding that ALL ballasted commercial lighting will be disconnected at the J-box feeding the fixture..in the past we would put inline fuses for 277v and just yank the fuse, but in two more years everything including the neutral will have to be switched

4. 
   rasconc | Jan 03, 2006 09:15pm | #12

   Was it not legal at one point to run 12 to fixture or switch and then use 14 for switch leg on a 20 amp breaker?  Only for limited # of lights obviously. 

5. 
   BillHartmann | Jan 03, 2006 10:05pm | #14

   There are some tap rules.But I don't think that they apply in this case.One example is that you can run a feed such as 50 amps for a cook top and ovens. Then tap off at a junction box and then run wires only sized for the particular oven or cook top load from the j-box.I suspect that in those cases the reasoning is that the load is known and not likely to be changed and when changed it will more likely be changed by someone that is knowledgable.OTOH a residential lighting fixture is more likely to be changed and the supply extended and you don't know where it will be extended.Now you example of allowing #14 only for a switch leg on a 20 amp circuit is certainly safe and it would be hard, but not impossible, to overload it. But I don't know if that was ever code or not.But I suspect that the reasoning is that allowing different size wires in that kind of application would be confusing and might lead people to do likewise in other cases where it would not be as safe.

6. 
   DanH | Jan 03, 2006 10:07pm | #15

   Yeah, regardless of whether it's technically legal, it's not a good idea in a residential setting.

   If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people

   happy?

7. 
   JohnSprung | Jan 04, 2006 03:27am | #16

   No, not that I ever heard of.  But the City of LA has had its own unique exceptions to NEC for most of my days....

   As for the OP's situation, I'd go with a 15 amp breaker if this is Romex, or pull new 12 instead of the 14 if it's conduit and the fills work out OK.   

    

   -- J.S.

    

8. 
   rasconc | Jan 04, 2006 03:49am | #17

   That would be a good solution but unless it is way off from the norm I would expect to find Romex.  If it were my kitchen I would probably add a couple of 20 amp ckts. 

   As for the first part when ours was wired it was 12 to box and up to fan/lt with 14 switch leg.  All were 20 amp breakers.  Will down size the appropriate breakers but I sure will not lose any sleep over it.  Would not "help" one of my customers by doing it the other way.  The above was done with the help of two licensed ( one who had lapsed) and inspected in 99.

9. 
   r | Jan 04, 2006 05:18am | #18

   Just curious here.  Now that 14 AWG and 12 AWG  Romex are different colors, what probability would you assign to having it pass a rough in inspection today ?

10. 
    rasconc | Jan 04, 2006 06:30am | #19

    Pretty slim I would guess.  Have seen insp. with their own little tunnel vision pet peeves that might miss it though.

2. 
   marv | Jan 04, 2006 04:33pm | #20

   "The 14ga wire in some of the boxes probably goes to lights."

   If even if it does go to a light that is not legal either.

   Bill - Another question - On a 20amp kitchen circuit, is it OK to run 12ga wire to a light?  If so, what if that light uses 16ga wires to connect to power?  Is this a fire hazard?You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.

   Marv

1. 
   DanH | Jan 04, 2006 06:36pm | #21

   So long as the connections can be made -- the cable's not too large to fit in the junction box of the fixture, etc -- it's always legal to use cable that's larger than the minimum size that code requires. (But of course remember that a larger-size cable has a smaller guage number.)

   The wiring in a fixture is typically smaller than what code requires for the circuit. This is true for several reasons, the main one being that the NEC doesn't regulate fixtures -- that's the domain of the UL, and the UL takes a much more test-oriented approach to certification. But basically the thinking is that the fixture wiring may be damaged by overcurrent, but only in the rare event of a non-short overload, and if so the entire fixture will be replaced.

   It is important to observe any stickers, etc, on the fixture regarding the max circuit ampacity it can be wired to. AFAIK, most are rated for 20A circuits, but there may be some fixtures produced that are only rated for 15A or less.
   If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people

   happy?

   Edited 1/4/2006 10:42 am by DanH

2. 
   BillHartmann | Jan 04, 2006 07:08pm | #22

   "On a 20amp kitchen circuit, is it OK to run 12ga wire to a light?"No, NO LIGHTING is allowed on the 20 amp kitchen appliance cirucits.Dan gave the reasons why smaller wiring is allowed in the fixtures.

1. 
   marv | Jan 04, 2006 07:57pm | #23

   Thanks for the quick response.  I'm going to discuss this with my architect.You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.

   Marv

2. 
   JohnSprung | Jan 04, 2006 10:49pm | #24

   It's OK to use #12 wire and 20 Amp circuits for lighting anywhere, including the kitchen.  What's not OK is to put lights or anything else on the required kitchen receptacle circuits, or any of the other special required circuits like laundry and bath receptacles.  

    

   -- J.S.

    

3. 
   maddog3 | Jan 05, 2006 12:09am | #25

   ....there is an exception.......an electric clock outlet can be on a kitchen appl circuit, but it has to be the special clock hanger receptacle

4. 
   rasconc | Jan 03, 2006 07:46pm | #5

   This is what a 15 amp gfci with 20 amp feed through looks like.

   http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=209353-334-XGF15A-3-L&lpage=none

   The true 20 amp will have plug configuration like this recpt.

   http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=136456-334-XGF20W-L&lpage=none

   I tried to do this with the Leviton site but it did not work, that was the 67834.6 that ws deleted.

1. 
   gtoguy | Jan 03, 2006 08:05pm | #6

   Thanks for posting those. I understand the difference, now. The GFCI in my kitchen is the 20 amp with the receptacle for a flat plug (neutral is a sideways "T"). From what I've heard, I'll just replace this with a 15 amp rated variety and tell my wife not to use her hair dryer, curling iron and toaster at the same time in the kitchen. :)

   I'll also replace the 20 amp circuit breaker with a 15 since there is some 14awg wire on the circuit - sounds like the safe side.

1. 
   rasconc | Jan 03, 2006 08:13pm | #7

   You are welcome.  Personally ( only my own use and not advice to anyone) I would not worry about replacing the 20 amp gfci unless it was giving me problems.  There are very few appliances with a 20 amp plug.  Only ones I recall are window air cond.  But to be legal and for peace of mind for a whole 10-12 bucks you can make that part right, for 4 bucks the breaker and all is right.