Replies

1. 
   odiddave | Jan 04, 2006 01:07pm | #1

   Well, I do floors- and I am anal, and do overkill. so far, so good.
   Benite the backs of all the wood to seal it. Use 15 lb felt for a vapor barrier. This is overkill since the wood is prefinished and already dry- and your floor is over a heated space. However, the paper is less than $15 a roll, and the sealer is less than $35 per gallon. A gallon does close to 600 sq ft. Again- this is overkill, cheap insurance.

   My Mother in law had a prefinished oak floor in her new kitchen. The dishwasher developed a small leak. Water got under the wood... which immediately soaked up water from the bottom. The damage was massive. The same thing happened in my house, except I had done the overkill stuff. My oak came through okay- I sanded minor damage, restained and re-Glitsa'd. Back to normal, with just spot repairs.

1. 
   Catskinner | Jan 05, 2006 04:28pm | #2

   <<Well, I do floors- and I am anal, and do overkill. so far, so good.
   Benite the backs of all the wood to seal it.>>What's Benite?Glad you posted this. I generally appreciate the extra effort that prevents damage from problems that can be reasonably anticipated.That's always been a concern for me with pre-finished floors.

   Edited 1/5/2006 8:30 am by Catskinner

2. 
   rasconc | Jan 05, 2006 08:42pm | #3

   I think you will find many folks who would disagree about the felt being a vapor barrier.  Would not argue that it is a good idea, just not a vapor barrier.

1. 
   odiddave | Jan 29, 2006 08:43am | #12

   Oops--- you are right--- felt is NOT the vapor barrier---- see other posts.
   Thanks for waking me up!best wishes- odiddave

3. 
   Piffin | Jan 06, 2006 01:49am | #7

   I'm anal tooSo as one picky brother to another, you should be told that the paper is there primarily to reduce squeeks when wood rubs against wood under traffic.So resin paper or tarpaper do the job Now you can return the favor and edumacate me as to what benite is. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   jagwah | Jan 06, 2006 03:26pm | #9

   Google...

   Eau Bénite, a beer brewed by Unibroue inc.Eau Benite is a golden beer with a slightly fruity nose and a pleasant warmingcharacter.

   Must go on the inside of the installer? 

2. 
   odiddave | Jan 29, 2006 08:31am | #10

   Whoops! I agree- the #15 felt is not a vapor barrier and I have been told it helps prevent rubbing squeaks- I just have not had board squeak due to rubbing on the underlayment- but yes, rubbing on each other, and joists underneath (etc) These are squeaks from vertical pressures... not horizontal.
   Benite is a very penetrating wood sealer, that bonds into the pores of the wood.
   see http://wwww.dalyspaint.com
   It is a good base coat for stains, alkyd oils, water based urethanes, and all like that. I have used it on cherry plank, oak, ash, etc. cool stuff. Once catalyzed, it makes a compatible base for most finishes, inc. Glitsa.The benite IS a sealer- and helps prevent wood movement with humidity later... and on top of felt helps slow moisture here in Wenatchee/Leavenworth, WA. over the course of a year. Kinda like using it under siding. Sorry- I had a *senior moment* saying perforated felt, with lots of edges was a barrier... HOWEVER- back in the early '60's all I used was rosin paper. Years later, I had a chance to demolish a house I had done... and the rosin had done virtually nothing. At least the felt makes me feel good! :-) insert smile.
   best wishes- odiddave

1. 
   Piffin | Jan 30, 2006 03:18am | #15

   I usually do th ebacks with shellac to seal it that way. I too prefer tarpaper to rosin but have goten away from it where we use a lot of radiant heat under floors now. The continual heat makes for more off-gassing of the asphalt vapours and some occupants are sensitive to that. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   odiddave | Jan 30, 2006 09:20am | #26

   Fine Homebuilding's own Don Bollinger (some of his guys/Oak Floors of Greenbank and me) did a red oak floor for my wife, back in 1977. We used rosin paper in one room... amd I got the tarpaper idea from him. I think (what's left of this brain) he is still in the Seattle area. I have used tar paper underlayment ever since. but just in appropriate places... and think the vertical squeak argument is lessened, as well as some vapor issues. What I would really like to see is some engineering data on the use of either in a controlled experiment.Poly membranes, under plywood and sealers, and real vapor barriers, and glue and all sorts of other stuff gets used in other flooring environments where it is needed. The original poster just wanted some security, on a regular joist floor of a second story. HOWEVER- now I am curious! I never really thought about this before...sincere regards,
   odiddave

2. 
   JDRHI | Jan 05, 2006 08:49pm | #4

   Don't know how much of a vapor barrier you have after you finish poking all those pesky nails through during flooring installation, but you need something. 15# felt....rosin paper....somethin' to keep the hardwood from rubbin' against the subfoor.

   J. D. Reynolds

   Home Improvements

1. 
   odiddave | Jan 29, 2006 08:44am | #13

   Oops--- you are right--- felt is NOT the vapor barrier---- see other posts.
   Thanks for waking me up!best wishes- odiddave

3. 
   JTC1 | Jan 05, 2006 11:07pm | #5

   I'm with JDR on this one.  Have always used rosin paper, but felt would work to keep the squeeks in check.

   Never thought about felt - might have merit in a kitchen situation.  But I don't think you will have much chance of a slow leak in your living / dining area.

   Enjoy.

   Jim

   Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.

1. 
   odiddave | Jan 29, 2006 08:45am | #14

   Oops--- you are right--- felt is NOT the vapor barrier---- see other posts.
   Thanks for waking me up!best wishes- odiddave

2. 
   xxPaulCPxx | Jan 30, 2006 08:05am | #25

   Never thought about felt - might have merit in a kitchen situation.  But I don't think you will have much chance of a slow leak in your living / dining area.

   Unless you are lucky like me that is.  The dining room at my last house had TWO water leaks.  One was from the occasionally overflowing toilet overhead (yes, toilet water in the dining room... I reeeeeeeaaaaaly loved it when my wifes family came to visit... and punish my fixtures).  The other was from the AC evaporator catch pan in the utility closet off in the dining room, which wasn't quite sealed right and leaked a ton of water directly under the wood floor from the side.

   At one point, walking there across solid wood sounded like "clump" "clump" "clump" "squish" "clump" "squish" "squish" "squish".Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA

   Also a CRX fanatic!

4. 
   doodabug | Jan 06, 2006 01:19am | #6

   I would say red rosin paper would be adeqate for your situation. I would say no to nothing between.

5. 
   Wango1 | Jan 06, 2006 03:13pm | #8

   I too do floors and am anal and would tell you that 13 years with no call backs and we hardly ever use felt or (worse) rosin. Felt was used back when basements were extremely damp -  stone walls and dirt floors, no drain tile,no waterproofing etc. back then it was to mitigate the moisture coming up thru the floor.

   Nowadays we have very dry basements and there is no reason to put it down. Read any of the manufacturers instructions and it will say it "can be used as a moisture retarder" but does not require it.

   What it can do is serve as a tray to collect and pool all the water should a leak occur and would then be  worse than simply letting it soak thru the subfloor.

   The best thing you could do is get a humidifier for winter and a dehumidifier for summer and keep the wood a constant moisture content (@ 8%).

1. 
   odiddave | Jan 29, 2006 08:39am | #11

   Very interesting. I have replaced a few water damaged spots, too. The finish trapped water, which soaked into t&g cracks- and got trapped by the subfloor... whatta mess.
   I think you've got a really good point there... letting it drain down, but I still think the damage would be done.
   The last one I did, was from a leaking water heater, on the top floor- while the owner was on vacation. Luckily, the floor trapped the water, so all the damage was on that one floor, and not the art gallery below. In that case, I guess an ice-dam fabric under the floor would be the way to go! Egads.... so in a more serions vein- should i simply lay the floor straight onto the underlayment, to prevent this stuff? (serious question, always ready to learn). best wishes- odiddave

2. 
   woodguy99 | Jan 30, 2006 03:49am | #17

   Wango, I've never understood the idea that paper under flooring will help with squeaks either.  If the floorboards are rubbing horizontally on the subfloor, something serious is going on that tarpaper won't help. 

   I'm not a full-time flooring installer, but I've installed my share without paper and have never had any problems with sqeaks.  But, when a contractor or homeowner insists on it, I figure it can't do any harm.

    

   Mike

1. 
   Piffin | Jan 30, 2006 04:10am | #18

   " never had any problems with sqeaks"But then you are still a young'un, and any floors you have laid are still young too. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

1. 
   Lansdown | Jan 30, 2006 04:39am | #20

   He might have started laying them when he was 12 ;~)

1. 
   woodguy99 | Jan 30, 2006 05:59am | #21

   I helped install my first floor at age 15, which was 17 years ago.  I suppose that's not a long time in piffinyears.  I've installed anywhere from one to ten floors a year for the last 11 or 12 years.  Still, not a long time, but I've been at this longer than most 32 year olds. 

   BTW, I understand the vapor barrier argument, and agree with it when the space below the floor is not conditioned space.  But no one, even Piffin the last couple of times this argument has come around, has yet convinced me (or several very good floor guys I've asked) how exactly the tar paper stops sqeaks.

    

   Mike

2. 
   Lansdown | Jan 30, 2006 02:33pm | #28

   I have almost always used felt rather than rosin just as personal preference, though I do believe there is some effectiveness as a vapor barrier as well. The siding nails perforate the paper too, therefore the same arguement would hold true. In the eternal tyvek/felt paper battle some say the asphalt impregnation helps seal around the neail holes. IMO felt does act as a vapor barrier to some extent. I have never been convinced of the necessity to back sealing flooring. Either way, as to your original question, the paper does isolate the flooring from the subfloor, thus eliminating friction and hence squeaking between them.

3. 
   30ALL | Jan 30, 2006 11:45pm | #29

   Felt paper is so cheap and take extra 10 minutes to roll down on floor, no extra efforts compare to resin paper, why not to use it?

4. 
   Lansdown | Jan 31, 2006 12:24am | #30

   I agree.

2. 
   woodguy99 | Jan 30, 2006 06:00am | #22

   I knew you wouldn't be able to resist that line!

1. 
   Piffin | Jan 30, 2006 07:22am | #23

   You won't be convinced until you see it in person. the fllor you tear up where there are no other explanations for any sqeaks and when you rear it up, you find low and behold, no paper between.Any time one thing can move against another, you can get sqeaks. That doesn't mean you will always get sqeaks, but the possibility remains, just like it is possible that a roof without tarpaper will not leak, but not always.since foot traffic walking across a floor produces stresses in theflooring and underlayment or subfloor and since those stresses are always uneven in motion, they sometimes result in the finish flooring moving against the underlying substrate and producing a squeak. Keep ignoring that fact long enough by not using paper, and you will have a sqeak to deal with.Probably more of the flooring squeaks are at the wood/nail juncture or the same in the subfloor, but probably 10-15% of them are at the wood/wood juncture, IMO. I've never had a callback in one of mine either, but I have fixed several in other old homes. 

    

   Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

3. 
   Advocate | Jan 30, 2006 04:27am | #19

   I think you will find that the National Oak Flooring Manufacturer's Association always recommends a vapor retarder under wood floor. Additionally, they call for a vapor barrier on the soil below when installed over a crawlspace.

   Follow their standards if you want to avoid liability for a problem floor.

   This should get you there:

   http://www.nofma.org/Portals/0/Publications/NOFMA%20Installing%20Hardwood%20Floors.pdf

    

   Advocate

   Edited 1/29/2006 8:40 pm ET by Advocate

1. 
   junkhound | Jan 30, 2006 07:37am | #24

   Own house, 35 YO, built when I was a kid<G> .  1st floor is 1/2 ply 16 oc, 15# tp, 2nd layer of 1/2 ply. About 3/4 carpeted, 1/4 oak, 1/4 vinyl. All ring shank nails. Even put a vertical layer of 15# between sheet edges.

   2nd floor 2x6 car decking, 15# felt, 3/4 high density particle board and carpet. 16d thru car decking, ring shank thru part. board.

   Absolutely no squeaks till the circa 2000  6.9 earthquake. 3 or 4 specific squeaks now, only on 2nd floor, pretty sure they are all at the car decking T&G. Should have used screws?

   Note: used perforated 15# felt to assure no vapor barrier. Part of reason for 15# on 2nd floor was to have a black background for the occasional see thru crack in a knot.

2. 
   Wango1 | Jan 30, 2006 01:32pm | #27

   I am very familiar with what NOFMA says, but the dance lightly around the word must. Also Bruce (owned by Armstrong), a huge player in the game, has changed their instructions to say it can be used, but not should or must. I see this as a change of the guard and maybe also as their way of avoiding lawsuits.

   When I encounter squeeks, it usually comes from two things. First is OSB, I hate it! I have gotten to the point where I will require plywood if they want wood from me. I need to use more cleats to hold the floor down, and theypull out way too easily. I usually nail at 8" oc. (One on the floor joist and one in between) This kkeps me evenly spaced across the floor and therefore spreads the stresses out evenly.

   Second is from a house that has not kept the humidity levels constant. A swing in either direction will cause the floor to want to move, hence squeeks. The worst being a suddenly wet floor, which can actually crush the outside edge and therfore shorten the width of the board. When this happens, you can get squeeks.

   Notice that in both situations, felt paper would not have saved anything.

   I used to install daily over a period of 7 years. 2 of us did nearly 125,000 s.f. a year. And I could count on one hand the number of jobs we used felt paper on. (Also about the same number of unfounded calls about squeeks). 

6. 
   grayhawk | Jan 30, 2006 03:30am | #16

   The main reason I use 15# felt paper under hard wood flooring is to cut down on squeaks.