I just completed laying down 2×4 sleepers on 24 inch centers over
concrete. I place insulation between the sleepers, laid a vapor
barrier, and socked down 3/4 inch tongue and groove plywood.
I got this construction from some book on house construction.
I also put crosswise 2×4 pieces every 4 feet between the sleepers.
Figured that would give some additional support and help the plywood
meet better at the edges. Then I started looking around and saw that
most people either did 24 inch centers with 1 & 1/8 inch ply,
or 16 inch centers with 3/4. My mistake, starting over I just would
go with 16 inch centers.
I’m sweating the decision to having gone
with 24 inch centers. Does anyone have any comments on this?
If I have to, I’ll just lay more plywood down, probably by unscrewing
the floor screws and laying another 1/2 of ply (no T&G) and placing
the T&G over that. Increasing the height of the floor will require
altering a door frame and I prefer not doing that.
I’m sweating the decision to having gone with 24 inch centers.
Does anyone have any comments on this?
comments would be helpful,
Owen
Replies
relax
3/4 t&g is rated to span 16 or 24 inch. 16" is obviously better but 24" is acceptable.
It's a matter of personal taste and finished floor surface. Walk around on it and see if the transition between solid and bouncy areas bothers you. Think also about what the final surface will be, and whether the flexing will hurt it. Deep pile carpet should do fine over this, ceramic tile would certainly crack up, other surfaces fall in between.
-- J.S.
It depends what finished flooring you will be using. Definitely with tiles you would need to add another ply.
Look at it this way, normal placement over joists @ 16" oc would leave the ply free-spanning 14.5"
But with 2x4 sleeps laying flat at 24"oc you have the plywood free-spanning 20.5"
over joists at 24"oc the freespan would be 22.5" - an additional 2" more than you have now.
Excellence is its own reward!
owhite, I'am curious as to what type of moisture barrier you put down, and if I understand your post, the moisture barrier is directly under the plywood. If it is visquene, I , personnally would get that stuff out. This is speaking in reference to a job I repaired, in Cincinnatti Ohio, under a crawl space. The HO's floor developed soft spots with in 4 years, of being installed. HO installed visquene on top of joist, then installed his plwood. Bad stuff was growing on the bottom side of plywood. Note; it is a very damp crawl space that this floor was above. In regards to the Span question, I would read the stamp (s) on the Plywood that you used, sometimes kindof hard to read, other times not. Then I would sit down with some body Knowledable at a Lumber yard, or find "it" in a back issue of Finehomebuilding, ie Grading Lumber, it is all a state of mind, or is it?? Jim J
Guys,
thanks for the comments. In case it wasnt obvious from the post I had already laid down the sleepers, and socked them to the floor with liquid nails and masonry screws. There's rigid insulation separating the sleepers and after having screwed down the 3/4 T&G the floor feels just fine. There's not much springyness to it, and I think the fatigue factor will be much better in comparison to concrete. One comment I got off line was that the rigid insulation has very good compression characteristics and it feels like this is the case.
Another question raised was regarding the vapor barrier. The order of materials from concrete up was liquid nails, 2 2x4 pressure treated sleepers laying on top of each other (liquid nails between sleepers to reduce squeeks), the vapor barrier which was 6 mil plastic and then 3/4 inch T&G.
I went with this order of materials from this years article in woodshop issue of fine woodworking. I guess the thinking was that sleepers should see some adhesive going to the concrete, so the vb should go on top of the sleepers. Doing it again I'd probably consider the masonry screws attachment enough for the sleepers and I'd put the vb on the floor. Then I could have glued up the ply on to the sleepers along with some good screwing.
And of course, if I did again I'd put 16 centers on the sleepers :-)
Owen
I did not catch the rigid insulation in the post, I 'am a guessing with your scenario, one would be ok with the visquene. Purely, a guess. Anymore, I just dont feel comfortable using visqueen, in certain applications, around wood. Be Safe out there Jim J
Ive seen it happen in this order. Moisture test on the slab, cold application lap cement, felt paper, more cement under sleepers, concrete screws, sub floor adhesive, plywood. Like the foam idea. Jack
If its tile youre laying down add 1/2" of CDX and 1/2"Wonderboard and you should have no problem at all.
Thing that gets me around here is when people start asking about 24" spacing on all different things. How many extra 2x's we actually talking about for 16" on center and a whole lot surdier job?
When I do my additions here I've decieded to use 2xSIX framing on the exterior walls. The cost difference isnt tremendous and my labor isnt all that much more time consumed. I know from past experiance what 2X6 walls feel like as far as sturdiness and insulation. And I'm talking 16" OC.
Be a stud w/ just under a foot and a half..lol
NAmaste
andy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
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Andy,
Electing to use 16" OC spacing rather than 24" OC would use about 50% more material for you sleepers/joists/studs/etc.
Still, I'm with you that the cost is worth it, unless you're going to use thicker sheet goods to make up for it (5/8 rock, 1-1/18" subfloor, etc).
Jon Blakemore
If its tile youre laying down add 1/2" of CDX and 1/2"Wonderboard and you should have no problem at all.
Just curious- Does anyone really use sleepers for setting tile on a slab foundation? For what purpose? You're adding at least 1 1/2" sleeper + 1" ply + 1/2" CBU = 3" of floor height, which would typically cause a lot of door height / adjacent floor level headaches, not to mention significant additional cost, for a setting bed that still won't be as stable as the slab. Throw in moisture problems and the life span of the floor is potentially compromised due to rotting members in the subfloor.
I guess if the slab was unusually out of level or otherwise problematic it might make sense, eg for crack isolation (but doesn't nobleseal make a membrane for this purpose?). Or if the existing floors were already built to that level, there'd be no question about it. But I've done several tile jobs directly on the slab and I don't think it can be beat for simplicity and durability... i'd rather make the hardwood flooring to (roughly) meet the height of the tile-on-slab rather than build up the tile job to meet hardwood on sleepers.
Just wondering if my thoughts & experiences are in the minority on this point... I'm new here so take it easy if that's the case. ;-)
thanks
Gus
Typically a floor thats dry, level and solid should be able to be tiled but sometimes people want the insulation first and are paranoid about mositure which isnt unfounded. Depends what part of the country your in and the conditions.
I just answered his immediate question. If he wants to add more info then I'll answer accordingly.
a
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
got it... it's true that with no barrier, any moisture from the slab is telegraphed through the tile, which will make it feel especially cool to a bare foot.
thanks Andy
Andy....isn`t 2 x 6 code for exterior walls in LI?.... or are you not in LI and I`m just confused? (no shots regarding me being confused!)J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Jay
Actually yearssss ago it was code for about 2-3 years then that changed.
As of Jan.1 2003 the codes as I understand it changed again. My plans were submitted the very end of Dec 2002 to try and avoid some of what were suppoed to be extensive changes in all kinda codes. I spose May 6th when I go to town hall for the review of my plans I'll find out what the new codes are not that it will pertain to me being that my plans were sent in ealier than the changes.
Still.....I "will" be using 2x6 exterior framing non the less.
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Good luck with the building department.....the BS I went through to file the plans for my addition!!!...And I now the guys! The dept. in our town is going through a much needed overhaul....and I got stuck in the middle. I feel sorry for the folks who don`t do this for a living!
All the best,
JayJ. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Jay
I got sort of the same response from Andy E.
We were corresponding via Email over a cpl of things and I mentioned my dilemna with the building dept.
Andy said he was happy to hear about my problems with them...I'm saying to myself before finishing his letter, "whatttt"? Then he said he was on his way to work thinking how he missed being his own boss till he got my Email and it reminded him of the downside. LOL.
Thank god it happened on my house and not a customers. I'm sure I'd be to blame.
Be self imployeed.....ugh, oiy, huh?
Namaste
andy
In his first interview since the stroke, Ram Dass, 66, spoke with great difficulty about how his brush with death has changed his ideas about aging, and how the recent loss of two old friends, Timothy Leary and Allen Ginsberg, has convinced him that now, more than ever, is the time to ``Be Here Now.''
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
True dat!J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
"DO IT RIGHT, DO IT ONCE"
Are you happy with the way it feels underfoot? If it is too springy, 1/4 luan glued & stapled is surprisingly effective at stiffening floors