Okay, I need the help of the tile guys here! I can do wood and drywall all day long, but tile just ain’t my strong suit unless it’s fairly straightforward new stuff.
Here’s the deal. Old house circa 1920-1925. The HO moved in about 3 years ago. Replaced the damaged original tub with a 2 1/2 x 5 foot “Jacuzzi” type tub himself about 2 years ago. The new tub was approx 1/2 inch lower than the old tub when measured from the floor up. His solution was to use “hardening plumbers mix” (his words not mine) to fill in the gap between the new tub lip and the bottom of the existing wall tile (4×4’s) and then use one of those self adhesive tub surround “caulk” strips to seal it off. Interesting idea … but dumb!
Naturally the strip adhesion has failed over time and now there is water damage to the area he “filled” under the existing wall tiles. He wants me to rip out his hack job and replace it with cut-to-size pieces of tile to fill in the gap between the old and new. Thus enters my dilemma ….
It appears that the wall tiles are on the original 1920″s backer board which has become very brittle and is breaking away. The main wall area appears structurally sound and water tight. I am concerned that if I begin just chipping away at the “hardener” that he used I will go right through the old backer board and find myself with a new hole in the wall around the entire tub. However, I can’t put in any new tiles until that stuff is out of there because they won’t sit flush.
I don’t have any problem ripping 4×4’s to a half inch to fit the existing space. But the thought of ripping durarock to that dimension does NOT thrill me (if it’s even possible?). So, I need to remove what’s there, but not ALL of what’s there (or do I?). You see my dilemma.
Finally, the tiles which surround the faucet and knobs are falling through the wall because he “broke away” the original backer board when he upgraded the fixtures without realizing what he was doing. His solution was to caulk the tiles back into place by setting them with tape until the caulk cured (i.e. NO current backing what so ever!!)
I suggested ripping everything out and starting from scratch but apparently the Boss (i.e. Wife) has already vetoed that option … but she has demanded that he gets his mistakes fixed ASAP. Should I even mess with this thing or should I simply toss it to a tile guy and head for the hills? ( I should mention that there is also a kitchen counter job, several plaster repair / refloat jobs, and a roof vent system in play if this situation gets resolved to the Boss’ satisfaction … thus the reason I’m even willing to consider it)
What pearls of wisdom do you guys have for this one?
Replies
Forget ripping the strip out. You'll probably open a can of worms.
Heres a suggestion...just a suggestion....
maybe you could find a nice sort of shoemolding made of poly foam or whatever that stuffs made from.
Comes in white but could be painted. You could silicone it over the area around the tub. I once used that stuff around the top of a green marble job I did in a shower stall. I used green crackle paint I sprayed on. Looked awesome and lasted for as long as I was in the house (5 years) and I'm sure its still going strong.
They have all kinds of nice molding out of that stuff you could pick from
Just a thought.
BE well
Namaste
andy
"As long as you have certain desires about how it ought to be you can't see how it is."
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
"Quarter round" and "beaks", or surface bullnose ripped to 1" stripps, or liners, etc.
Replace old backing with tile backer board, WR drywall, etc.
Kill any mold or fungus with bleech. Clean with alcohol.
I have never done any tile work so I don't know what I am talking about, but that has never stopped me in the past. And based on the price that you are paying for my suggestions they are "priceless".
What about taking a grinder with a diamond blade and cutting the whol mess off at the next row of tile. That gives you a 4" plus strip to work with. Then in that area you can do all kinds of complimentry tile work to finish it off.
Not a bad thought for "working room," thanks. However, my problem is less with that than with trying to save / repair / replace the original 1920's backer board. When your backer is crumbling away, its kind of tough to attach anything new regardless of how much room you have ... know what I mean Vern?!
In the 1920's, tile jobs over wood lath and plaster were common. Gypsum board as a replacement for wood lath was still regarded as an unproven newfangled notion. Come to think of it, bathrooms were still kind of a newfangled notion, too. For better jobs, they used mortar made of portland cement and lime on expanded metal, and set the tile into the mortar. I don't know what else they might have used as a backer board that was actually a board product. Can you get a good look into a wall cavity and see what it was?
-- J.S.
typically the oldtimers would lay the mortar up on a metal lath and wet set the tiles.
are you sure that is a backer board? it sounds like the the demo for the original tub could have been more precise, or the tub should have been raised that 1/2" upon installation, using a tile shoe to cover the gap at the floor. can you still raise the tub?
imo don't take that gig. rg
John & Ricky,
I can't honestly swear that the whole unit has backer board in place vs. the mortar & lathe option you guys suggest. The only thing I can get to is the area around the faucet where the tiles are faling back into the wall because of no backer at all. At the top edge of that opening, I was able to reach in behind there and pull off a very old piece of paper that had a dusty material bonded to it.
In that area at least, it definitely isn't mortor, nor is it cement board. It smells, acts, looks like gypsum with a paper backer. However, there is certainly no green color going on and the paper was so old the it literally crumbled in my hands once I got it out. It also had those really dark brown "burnt" edges like you see in an old book or newspaper that's had too much exposure to the air. Based on that, I'm making an educated guess that it is at least forty or more years old if not actually original. The HO got this place through a family connection and so has some idea of it's history. He seems to think that the bathroom hasn't been redone in anyone's recent memory, which also leads to my guess.
As mentioned before, I complete tearout is not in the budget. As for raising the tub, that's also an unlikely option. It has been in place for close to two years now with all of the plumbing already terminated, sealed, etc. That would easily be as involved as simply bringing down and redoing the existing tile.
I think that the chip, seal, and "pretty up" route is my answer thus far. However, I still haven't heard anyone offer suggestions on the best way to back the tiles coming out around the faucet. My thought here was to use a couple of sturdy furring stirps coated with PL adhesive. Slip them up behind the existing tile above the opening and clamp them over night so that they provide a new backing surface. What do folks think?
> It smells, acts, looks like gypsum with a paper backer. However, there is certainly no green color going on and the paper was so old the it literally crumbled in my hands once I got it out. It also had those really dark brown "burnt" edges like you see in an old book or newspaper that's had too much exposure to the air.
Aha -- I've seen the exact same stuff. It's early gyp board that's been chronically damp. I tore a bunch out of an area that used to be a laundry and water heater room. It's very likely to be the original installation from the 1920's. Mine's from 1926, but in my house it was just plastered over, not used as a tile backer. This is bad news, as the rest of it could also be in quite bad shape by now. Perhaps you could take out that bottom course as was suggested, and look up into the wall cavities with a light and mirror. It sounds like the original installer was experimenting.
-- J.S.
Andy -
Back in the 60's & 70's I made my living as a tile setter. No, I, nor anyone else knows *all* the answers but I worked for a small custom tile shop and the bulk of our work was re-do's of older homes. If you've got "backer board" behind the tile, it's a newer vintage tile job than what your original post implied. Unless it was available in other parts of the country than the Pacific NW, backer board is a 'relatively' new material. If the old original tile work is from the original home construction, I'd be surprised if it weren't mud set.
None the less, I agree with the suggestion of taking the next row above the rip out as well. All the way down to the studs. This will allow you to verify that there has been *no* water damage/rot to the primary framing.
If you've got any plastering skills, I'd float/mud set the bottom row of tile back in place. Put some Kraft paper up then attach a strip of expanded metal lath. Scratch coat the lath, then come back the next day and float out the setting bed holding it back the thickness of the tile plus a hair for thin set. Myself I'd set the new tile on the fresh setting bed but it might be easier to float the new bed out nice and straight and smooth and use thin set the next day.
You can find 4 1/4 x 6 tiles in most mfr's lines which would eliminate that thin, unnatractive rip at the bottom. Perhaps even use 6x6 and not worry about matching joints.
Hopefully there's a flashing lip on the new tub to help in diverting water away from the wall. The new tile shouldn't be set hard against the top of the tub - leave some room for caulking/sealant. The tub will move with temperature changes (hot water being added) and grout will inevatably crack out over time.
From the sounds of things, you're a very competent builder and craftsman but I can't stress too much how important it is to protect the new tub while you're working in it............
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis,
Excellent suggestions all the way around! Thanks. I was concerned about the water damage issue and fully agree with taking out the row above for that reason alone. Then being able to fill that back with one row vs. one and a rip sounds like a great plan. Since I don't do enough tile, I wasn't even aware that sizing was available.
Funny enough though, plaster is something that I do do a lot of in my historic work, so those skills I've got. So I'm right there with you on the steps you outlined for that. Not sure if this particular HO will spring for the extra $$ to make that happen, but I'll sure as heck "strongly encourage" them in that direction.
As for protecting their exisiting tub, I was already thinking about that. There is a company that I get a lot of supplies from and they have something specifically designed for that purpose. Take a look at the following link and let me know if you've used something like this before and/or what you might recommend here.
http://www.protectiveproducts.com/scratch.html
Thanks for the feedback.
Edited 3/12/2003 10:38:34 PM ET by Andy in MD
Andy -
I haven't seen that product before, but as I implied, a lot of time has passed since I was in the business and there are a *lot* of wonderful new products out there. In our remodel work we were involved with a complete tearout to the framing so we needed some pretty superduty protection. One gets good at scrounging old carpet scraps for such cases (grin). We'd usually tape kraft paper all around the tub lip flashed over something like carpet scraps. What's the tub made of? Fiberglas? (ouch) That painted on film stuff looks like it would be great if you can get the millage needed to provide protection. If the tub is fiberglas, I'd still put something like some old carpet in the bottom. And be careful about getting crud under it that could grind through the film protection.
I lost track of the whole project and forgot about the tiles around the valves. Here again, I think I'd opt for a lath & plaster patch since it's pretty easy to get grade using mud rather than some kind of rigid board material. Is it possible to get access to part of the framing on that wall on which to attach the lath? The finish infill is more problematic in that area; matching joints and all unless you could come up with some sort of square/rectangular patch to turn it into a design solution.
"Plaster" is rather generic term with respect to this situation. You'd want to use what is essentially a stucco mix being cement/lime mortar rather than a gypsum plaster material.
scratch & brown is all you need. If you set the tile fresh in the brown coat you can use pure portland cement but be sure to soak the tile for about 30 minutes before installation if they're the normal soft bisque wall tile. They're too dry otherwise and will soak the water out of the cement too fast and weaken the bond.
This owner doesn't sound too enlightened, Andy. If they dig in their heels over the cost of doing what we both know is the right thing to make this a viable installation, I'd walk. The other work you mention would probably be just as frought with frustration as this part. Your only as good as your last job.
...........
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
If they dig in their heels over the cost of doing what we both know is the right thing to make this a viable installation, I'd walk. The other work you mention would probably be just as frought with frustration as this part.
Spoken like a true wise man kimosabee. You've pbviously been in them there trenches before!
Thanks again for the well thought out response and suggestions.
Andy
Sounds like the whole area is starting to fail and a full rip out is in order. But if the HO wants to be cheap then grind out the narrow gap and then can you raise the tub to touch the tiles? If not "touch up" the area with a brick pointing tool and the fill with the ripped tiles.
Just do what I said.ya here me?!
Be your boss
Namaste
andy
"As long as you have certain desires about how it ought to be you can't see how it is."
http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Just do what I said.ya here me?!
Yes boss, I hear ya boss, right away boss...
Seriously though, thanks for the suggestion. I hit my local tile supplier this afternoon and he had similar suggestions (i.e. avoid the can of worms, seal what's there good and tight, and put something "pretty" over top of that)
On a side note. I noticed you always end with Namaste. If I'm not mistaken, isn't that Hindi for "good day" or "hello" or something to that effect? My mom lived in Bombay for about five years and I seem to recall that was the greeting she used.
ps. (for those that care) you'll notice the new screen name with this post. There were starting to be a few too many "andy"s so I thought I would use something more specific ... or in the words of my oldest daughet ... whatever! LOL
Edited 3/12/2003 7:50:53 PM ET by Andy in MD
On a side note. I noticed you always end with Namaste. If I'm not mistaken, isn't that Hindi for "good day" or "hello" or something to that effect? My mom lived in Bombay for about five years and I seem to recall that was the greeting she used.
Andy
View Image
View Image
Friends that I meditate with use this as a greeting or when we leave.with a short bow
Be well
Namaste
Andy"As long as you have certain desires about how it ought to be you can't see how it is." http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Namaste is also what we say at the end of yoga class.
-- J.S.
I don't want to step on anybody's toes here, but I see this very differently.
How much time are you going to spend and how much will you really be saving the HO compared to a complete tear out of the tub area?
It seems to me that if you have to carefully cut the bottom, then float a scratch coat, then a finish coat, then install the tiles, and this is all not taking the area around the faucet into consideration, it just seems like a lot of time and possibly not the success you're hoping for.
There seems to be more hidden damage here. If you go ahead with repairing the bottom of the tiles and later on more of the damage becomes evident, these people might just blame you for the whole deal and expect you to repair it at your cost since you did the repair to begin with.
I'd recommend trying to price a complete tear out aggressively if you want the other work or just walk away. With a properly done job from scratch, you'll have no problems being able to stand behind it.
Edited 3/13/2003 7:18:20 PM ET by nino
nino
thing is..his customer sounds a bit off kilter....theres more to the job than the job it self sometimes if you know what I mean.
Be aware
Namaste
andy"As long as you have certain desires about how it ought to be you can't see how it is." http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
ANDY! Are you still digging out of the snow? How is that house coming along?
I am highjacking this thread for a minute, sorry Andy MD. We have the tin roof that is 16 inch standing seam. Couldn't find anyone that could get this for a client of ours. Lars is doing two historical porches for this client. Our roof is exactly like theirs. Guess what? Yeap we are about to rip half of our roof off for the client. THis now means that we have to kick it into overdrive on our house. We were in the middle of putting in a staircase in the living room to give us access to the attic. Now we have to deal with the backend of the house that has been gutted for four years. I have a kitchen/dining room/laundry room in one of the bedrooms in our house. The back end of the house will have a new kitchen/pantry/laundry room/half bathroom/masterbath. We have to get walls up/windowsin etc. Then at least the backend will be enclosed.
While we were working on the staircase in the living room we found out something. We took some of the beadboard off the walls to expose the chimney. The walls on either side of the chimney (which is the backside of the master bedroom) use to be flooring of another house. From what we can tell our home is 80-100 years old. The materials that were used look as if some of them are reused from another house. We figure that some of the materials have to be 120 years plus. Kind of exciting. Of course I know that this doesn't compare to the age of your house!
Hope that all is well and hang in there. It was near 70 here yesterday! Warmer weather is coming.Tamara
I am highjacking this thread for a minute, sorry Andy MD. We have the tin roof that is 16 inch standing seam.
And this has exactly what to do with 1920's tile???
Don't worry, I'm just giving you grief ... highjack away. BTW, sounds like quite an undertaking you've got. I'd love to dig into something like that one day, but the MRS. has already made it VERY clear that if I ever want to live IN one of my projects while it is underway, that is something that will have to happen with my "other wife." Oh well, guess I'll just have to keep doing it for other folks for now. It does get tough though doing these great renno's that I am so proud of for other folks, while I continue to live in "new construction." (Oh, I just feel so dirty saying those words ... the sacralige of it all!)
Edited 3/14/2003 10:08:08 AM ET by Andy in MD
Tamara
Sounds exciting. Dont you just love it when one thing leads to another as I always put it. One little thing can make your project go into overdrive when it might just sit there for months or years even.
Yeh me too......just ripped out a cpl of back to back bathrooms upstairs that were probably twenty something years old and totally disgusting. Found 14" plank floors under the tile mud job. Had to pull them up to repair the post and beams that some azzhole plumber butchered up real good to run his stupid pipes.
I did all the repairs and have the planks and nails I saved sitting in the spare room waiting to be stripped one day and reused here somewhere.
I should get all your all adresses and mail you each a nail I saved. After all my guess is that besides the posts and beams and 14" planks...the nails are also 323 years old.
Weather is supposed to be almost 60 deg tomorrow.imagine that....I can finally reset up my tipi....whewww
Be old
Namaste
andy"As long as you have certain desires about how it ought to be you can't see how it is." http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
thing is..his customer sounds a bit off kilter....theres more to the job than the job it self sometimes if you know what I mean.
------------------------------
Believe me, I know what you mean!!!
LOL!
I would run from this job.
If I had to do it, I would gently remove the first few courses of tile above the tub (use a dremel grinder to remove grout and a thin blade chisel to gently pry the tile off the setting bed). Examine the setting bed, and replace as necessary.
Maybe the setting bed can be replaced with backerboard; maybe you might want to staple poly and lathe and float some wall mud to an appropriate thickness, but before one tiles, the setting bed needs to be clean and structurally sound.
If there is no budget for this, then give the homewoner some fixall and some mastic, and tell him its time for him to do another hack job. Maybe in a year or two, he'll save up enough money to do it right.
Run from this job. You can't do it right; they won't pay you enough to to it right; if you do it wrong, they will be calling you in 6 months.
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1927