1950’s electrical upgrade – best method?
I’m looking at a house that was built in the 1950’s here in california. Its basically “vintage” w/ no upgrades since the begining of time. I was wondering, what would be the best way to upgrade the elecrical system in a jiffy? Here are the options i’m considering:
1. Hire an electrician to fish new wires everywhere… yeah, that should be cheap.
2. Remove all the drywall or plaster (i’m not sure what it is) and rewire myself, get it inspected, then reinstall new drywall.
3. not buy the house.
4. some other way that i haven’t thought of yet…
I have no idea what the asbestos situation is… there is probably a good chance its in the walls, right? I do plan on doing a lot of work to this house, including updating the bathrooms, floors, lighting etc… so removing all the drywall could pay off for all of those projects too.
thanks for any help,
-mike.
Replies
Wellllllllllll...other than #3, none of them sound like "in a jiffy" solutions.
I guess my thoughts are: Are you qualified to safely do the work yourself? Is there an inspection report available to accurately gauge the condition of the elec and asbestos situations that you're theorizing about? How large is the house, and what's the condition otherwise? Is it such a great deal that any of these (likely very expensive) scenarios are worth even contemplating?
PaulB
structurally its sound, the roof is new, the foundation checks out okay. no inspection report yet, since i haven't really decided if i want to make an offer or not yet. its 1570 sqft. its an investment, so i don't want to be sittng with it vacant for very long... thats why i would like to spend maybe more money and less time. 2 months of construction downtime is probably my max. i'll sub out anything too hairy, like the electrical panels, etc. but pulling new romex is monkey work, so i'm qualified for that. ;-)asbestos is the only thing that worries me. everything else a little brute force will take care of. well, that and spending time either above or below a 50yr old home... 15yr old attics give me the creeps already.-mike.
The wires have worked since then and will later. I'd check with your insurance agent and ask them what they prefer. Some are saying "No" to covering electrical fires caused by old wiring.
GFCI Circuit Breakers.... cheaper than all pulling wires.
Troy Sprout
Square, Level & Plumb Renovations
Michael,I live in a 1951 house near San Diego. Another benefit of stripping walls is that you can insulate them. My exterior stud bays were completely empty of insulation. It also lets you inspect for hidden termite damage, and fix it before rewiring.Asbestos could be in HVAC insulation, ceiling spray texture, or VA tiles. Stripping the wall plaster gets rid of the lead paint on the plaster, too.Bill
Paul has some good points. Are there things about the house and/or location that make it worth the cost? Do you have an inspection report that identifies possible asbestos? Chances are that the asbestos will be in the floor tiles. And you might have lead paint.
Since you are thinking about doinmg some remodeling anyway, I would vote for exposiong the studs. There are a couple of additional advantages to easy wiring access: Upgrade exterior insulation. Add more outlets, and low voltage wiring. Seismic upgrade by adding plywood to the inside face of the studs. Possible plumbing upgrade.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Is there some problem you know of with respect to the wiring? Why do you want to redo it?
half the outlets don't have a ground. its just the old school two prong plugs. i think if i want to pull any permits for the house, thats going to have to come up to snuff. plus i went back to the house today, the panel has only a 100amp service, which in todays hi-tech world probably isn't enough.
For the size of house, a 100 amp service is adequate, even in today's electronic age. There's even been talk in some of the electrical co-operatives of going back to 60 amps so as to be able to serve more homes with the same wires and generation capacity. Yes, this is possible with load shedders and gas heat/hot water/dryers, compact fluorescents!!!
We still have 60 amp service in our house. On the up side, our electricity bill is low. On the downside, we can't add anything to what we've got.
I don't know the size of the house, but I haven't seen a lot of huge 1950s houses in Cali, so maybe 100 amp is okay. But I guess it depends on what you are doing in there.If you have one room in the house with a lot of electronics, you might be able to get a second line to just that room and only have to renovate that one room instead of the whole house. Not sure if that's kosher, but it makes sense.My house was finished in the late 50s-1960. Also no ground prong on any outlets. But there was a ground wire in every box(!), just wrapped around the ground screw. If you have the same situation, changing 2 prong to 3 prong shouldn't be hard.
My 50's house is like Bobs ,14/2 no ground but a seperate bare ground wire throughout. You could use the existing panel as a sub panel and add a 200 (code permitting).
Keith
Upgrading electrical is easy and not expensive on a old house. All the electronics (TV, computers, phone, etc) will not overload old circuits. Most dont need the ground plug, except computers. All the load is in the kitchen/laundry. A typical installation would have a new 100 amp panel 4 circuits for exist. plugs and lights. Add new seperate circuits (2) for the kitchen, one for washer and dryer and maybe one for the computer room. Future stuff would be for garbage disposal, forced air furnace, etc.
In your area, the electrician should charge around $2,000.
Bare bones minimum would be 100 amp panel 2 circuits to exist, one new one to laundry and new one to kitchen.
Re: "1. Hire an electrician to fish new wires everywhere... yeah, that should be cheap."
Cheap no but it remains your best option. But then again your free to drill your own teeth if you don't like what the dentist charges too.
You can cut the cost some by calling around, some electrical supply shops will give you an honest reckoning as to who does what sort of work most often, and selecting a shop which does a lot of old work.
FWIW - the last time i called an electrician... i had him install three ceiling fan boxes, two can lights, and a bathroom fan (he didn't do the venting part)... plus i pulled most of the new wires from the the switches to the new fixture locations. cost: $975 for 6hrs of work. i got a quote to install three can lights above my garage doors... hehe, $1,300! seriously i need to give up my geeky computer job, and start running wires. so, thats why i think #1 won't be that cheap, and removing the drywall isn't such a bad idea.-mike.
A 1950's California house will likely have flex rather than romex, and may be loomed wire if it's early 1950's. If you have flex, you can readily use the old wires to pull in new ones with a ground, upgrade circuits from #14 to #12, divvy them up differently, etc. Adding lights or plugs in new places would be the only reason to open up walls.
You need to know about box and conduit fill limits for planning this. You'll need to know quite a bit more to actually do it. Taunton's "Code Check: Electrical" book is well worth having in this case.
-- J.S.
I'm not sure what this flex stuff you speak of is, but my 1955 house here in Texas has some older romex type stuff, but it's got what seems like fabric insulation. It isn't in terribly good shape nowadays, so I can see wanting to replace it. But I'm not so sure you could use the old cable to pull new cable. If it's anything like my house, the cable is stapled throughout the walls. I know, I've already tried a couple times when I had to run some new cable (pre-existing cable never seems to have any slack whatsoever).
Flex is flexible metal conduit. It's a narrow strip of sheet metal formed to interlock and then wound into a spiral to make a tube. It came into wide use after WWII, and is still readily available, though now Romex is SOP for most residential work.
Flex is harder to drive a nail into than Romex, and easier to install than EMT, so it has its place where damage is likely, but not likely to be severe. The original flex was galvanized steel, now it's also available in aluminum, which isn't as nail resistant as the steel.
You can pull wires into flex, though it's not as easy as pulling in EMT or black pipe. There was another product called BX, which was made by forming the sheet metal spiral tightly around the wires, plus some papery filler. Like Romex, there's no way you can do any pulling, but it does have the nail resistance of flex. I haven't seen much BX in a long time, which is fine by me.
What you have is called loomex, it's the loomed wire ancestor of Romex. Unfortunately, like Romex, there's no way to do any pulling with an original stapled job. Unfortunately, like all loomed wire, it's old, the insulation deteriorates with age.
-- J.S.
I'm reminded of the advice given my dad from a slightly shady contractor: "Insure it, then burn it."
No electrons were harmed in the making of this post.
hmm... i think that wouldn't go over very well... but thanks for the idea.
Need more info.
What is the exist wire? 14/2 (B&W only), or 14/3 (b, W, and bare copper)?
Why do you feel it has to all be replaced? Does it look fragile, etc?
How many circuits are in the main box now? Is it full?
If your wire is 3 strand (14/3), you can upgrade the outlets by adding a pigtail (bare copper) from the new outlet to the groung in the box. (more on this later)
If you do not have a ground (only 2 wire) you may be stuck.
My last two houses (One 1955 in NJ, and one older, but re-wired in 1952), had 14/3, and I was able to pigtail them.
or 14/3 (b, W, and bare copper)?
That is actually called 14-2 w/G. If you buy 14-3, you will get black, red, white, and bare.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
You are absolutely right. I used the wrong terminology.
Was trying to clarify wether there were 2 or 3 wires in the exist cable.
Well, there are some things that can be looked at. First off are your needs.
Like kids, if you have kids, you are likely going to need 5-6 CVs per bedroom, and a phone conncetion, a tv connections, and some sort to internet conncection. (You might want that all but the electrical runs to a master patch panel so as to be able to really ground children--or not.)
Like a/v centers, they will want a bit more power than just the one CV on the wall. They can need a telco & cable & internect conenction, too.
If all of the rooms have 4 outlets (1 per wall), you may be ok "as is."
For me, it would come down to a quick-n-dirty electrical survey. What guage & material are the wires/cables? Are they in boxes? Grounding issues (like the metal medicine cabinet grounded to a clamp on the plumbing, which may or may not be a good ground, let alone a legal one). Are the circuits well organized? Or, are they just looped around the house up to max fixtures per breaker (like my 1951 house)?
Another question is access. With good crawlspace or attic access, it can be realtively easy to run new, to-current code, cable.
If the walls are just d/w, then sometimes, a strip job makes sense, particularly if your budget allows for insulating while the bays are open--which is an excelent time, befer the house accumulates al lthe "stuff" houses do). Now, this will sound out of left field, but what sort of plumbing is installed? Galvanized pipe may want out now, rather than later--this can be an excellent argument for opening the walls.
If you pull permits for all the remodeling work, any electrical work you do will have to be to current code. If your plans include a dishwasher and built-in microwave, they need dedicated circuits. Bathroom, kitchen and exterior outlets will have to have GFCI protection.
Since you're working with a 50's era house, there's a good chance that your service is already undersized so I would recommend that you get an electrician to help you plan your electrical work. Yeah, you'll spend some up front money but you'll probably save in the long run.
there's a good chance that your service is already undersized
Which may not be by the electrical needs so much as by the number of circuits we think of as "typical."
Which then begs a question. Do you do "just enough" to meet current code (which will be a lot in CA)? Or do we "plan ahead" as it were? Which then poses the "what will we need?" question.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I'm a big fan of planning ahead (or at least trying to). People buying older homes and planning (wishing?) to do serious remodeling should try to figure out a "master plan" - even if it will take years to get it all done.
That 100 amp service may (or may not) be adequate for the master plan and I would bet that much of the existing wiring will ultimately need to be replaced. This is the perfect time to get an electrician involved so that the work can planned and staged in a way that reduces (or eliminates) those nasty and expensive surprises later on.
I'm in a similar situation right now. My daughter and SIL have just bought a mid 50's house and will move in mid-December. Luckily, my daughter knows that the first purchase in remodeling isn't a paint brush, but from some of the conversations we've already had, I'm counting on some problems when they begin to realize how deep they need to go to do some of their ideas.
the first purchase in remodeling isn't a paint brush
Ouch, laughing enough to hurt, an in-law (straight face, no less) said "Oh course not, silly, you buy the house, first . . .!"
I wish I'd thought to actually do an electrical survey before starting move in on mine. I knew I had electrical work in the future (rooms only averaged 2 CV each), but I was lulled by the succession of panels out of the house into thinking that some improvments had been made. Silly me. Positively fascinating mix of loomed, 12/2ng cable, & three era's versions of romex. None of it just simply behind d/w either--walls sheathed in 1x6 t&g #2 (that's 1951 #2) sugar pine.
In retrospect I should have just used the existing panel as a temp, and rerouted everything down into the crawlspace to re-home run it all. That was then, this is now--c'est la vie dans maisons vieilles <g>Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I run into it all the time............people just can't (won't?) think ahead. There are 'core' issues with virtually all older houses that need to be looked at very carefully before the 'pretty work' starts. To the extent I can, I always urge people to deal with electrical, plumbing and heating issues early in the process. Even if some work won't be used for a few years, it's cheaper in the long run to get the groundwork laid early.
My daughter is actually a pretty sharp cookie. At one of her first jobs after college (some kind of cube rat job - lol), they lost power one day and everyone freaked out. She found the breaker panel, reset the breaker and wondered why everyone was so excited. When she told me about it, she was amazed that nobody had a clue about dealing with a tripped breaker. She had grown up with it. When she, her sister, and my wife would all fire up their multi-megawatt blow dryers at the same time, the bathroom lights went out about half the time. One of them had to go in the garage and reset the breaker. I refused to do it since I didn't have nearly enough hair to use a blow dryer.............and I have less now - lol.
Lately I have been running empty conduit (usually 1/2" flex) when it is convient. The last major remodel I did had empty flex into the attic, the workshop, and the kitchen. Should leave the next guy something to work with since I finished their basement where the panel is but they were planning on working on their kitchen in the future.
Did you tag it and make an "as-built" sketch? When I do something like that, I try to leave some "tracks" so the next person can figure out what it is, where it goes, and how it gets there. I'll either make a sketch or mark up a drawing and suggest that the owner keep it with their important documents for future reference.
When I've done sidewalks or driveways, I put some capped plastic pipe under them before the concrete gets poured. Sure makes it easier to run future sprinkler systems or landscape lighting - lol.
I put some capped plastic pipe under them before the concrete gets poured
I do more than that for other people's houses (I have the drawings for mine; I even look at them occasionally <g>).
Since the "current" clients might move right after I'm done (and forget to tell the new owners, whatever), I use a small landscape valve box over the ends of under-concrete sleeves. One of those "hard way" lessons after coming back from vacation to see a neighbor just finishing up fixing the torn up drive way 2' from the already-in-place sleeve . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
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Did you tag it and make an "as-built" sketch?
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I have a little electronic label printer that lives in my tool bag. It is made by Brother, costs about $50. One of thoose things that customers like to see come out, shows that you care. Each empty conduit is tagged inside the panel with its destination (cables are tagged too). I also typically place a label inside of the cover of any junction boxes I have to install.
Good Man, Renoun. I'm sure you've seen the typical tract house breaker box with "Outlets" scrawled across the labels - lol
Here's my .02 since I am in the middle of this right now.
Our home was from '47 the wiring is 95% original. We are able to access some of the wiring from the outside (we removed all the old siding). We have NO insulation.
The rest of the wiring we will be able to access from the inside cuz we demo'd alot of the plaster walls. We will have EASY access to every outlet save 2.
Upsides of upgrading:
We found ALOT of old wires chewed bare!! We have switches and outlets that sometimes work sometimes don't. We will run new phone, cable and ethernet with walls exposed. Insulation. We have MULTIPLE junction boxes. We have one box that has 4 wires coming into it, some of the wires jump to another outlet, one goes up into the attic to another junction, and still yeat another runs UNDER the house to another junction. We can run all in the attic now.We have like 3 rooms in various parts of the house on 1 circuit. Everything is 2 prong. We can upgrade to 200 amp. the upgrade is an added selling point in my neighborhood. Our cost is going to be minimal. No more lead paint or toxins
Downsides:
The paster removal is a pita. Do you plan on removing the ceiling too? We have blown insulation on ours. Labor and materials will $$. Time--nothing seems to go as fast as you think.
Final conclusion from me though, do the upgrade.
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A suggestion for the phone, cable, and ethernet stuff:
Put in boxes with stubs of conduit up to the attic or down to the crawl space. That way you can pull in anything that gets invented in the future without having to tear into the walls.
-- J.S.
yep that was exactly my plan
No way was I ever gonna crawl under tihs house again to run that stuff and also have to drill though plaster-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
WWPD