I am working for a HO that decided to rehab his old windows, rather than replace them. The house was built in the mid 50’s, and is has a rather unique problem.
As luck would have it, I’m working outside while a paint crew is working inside. The owner/lead on the paint crew is about as old as dirt, and has literally been in the business for 55 years. He told me that the house was built with its original owner acting as the GC, and that he was a car dealer. He had used whatever labor he could find, without regard to skill level.
None of the windows are nailed, or screwed, or otherwise attached, to the framing. The only thing that has benn holding them in place for a half century is the interior and exterior trim wood.
Of course, my task, as the rehabber, is to replace the exterior trim, while reglazing and repainting.
Holy ** — when I was removing the brick mold from the first window, it moved almost a half inch. It was about to take a dive into the living room. I went inside to see that the painter in that room was scared *less and was now out in the hallway.
Anyway — the windows are double hung. They have spring-loaded aluminum channels on each side of each sash. The “hugging” of the sash by the channels seems to be what keeps a sash from falling.
With those channels in place, it seems impossible to add the shims and fasteners that these windows cry for.
Is there anyone here who will admit to being as old as the painter, and therfore remembers how these windows should have been installed?
Thanks in advance….
Unless you’re the lead dog, the view just never changes.
Replies
how they should have been installed has little to do with how you now prioceed. How they actually were installed is what you have on your plate
So regardless how bad you hate cold chopped spinach, you need to eat your veggies, sonny.
actually, a lot of the windows i install are held in by little more than the in and out trims. The exterior trim is an integral part of the window unit, and nailing it in is what seats the window. Then, since most modern windows do not allow in their design a place to nail jamb to framing, The interior trim pinned finishes the job pretty much except for the fact that I also fill the cegvity with low expansion foam which both insulates and glues it in. If you were to remove the exterior trim on most of these, you might find a lirttle wiggle is all. But the caulk/glue that holds casong to jamb is far better now, so you would probably destroy the jambs too.
Back to finding you a solutuion...
Need to know, isn't the sill rotted too? On old wood windows from that far back, I would expect that if the brickmold is so far gone as to require replacement, that the sills would also be in terrible shape.
If that is the case, the HO would be far better off having you replace all the windows with new. He would have much better windows for close to the same cost overall. What he has now sounds like crap and it will just be repaired crap -no matter how much money he throws at it.
got any pictures to post?
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Need to know, isn't the sill rotted too?......If that is the case, the HO would be far better off having you replace all the windows with new.
Of eleven windows, only one sill has any rot at all. There are probably ten or more sticks of brickmold that have some very small areas of rot.
The HO's desicion to replace the trim is based on his desire to not have any of the old alligatoring paint left when the job is finished, and his perception of the cost versus value of replacements (see below). Since he's paid various others to try to scrape/sand it off without good result, he is adamant about it being replaced -- and he wants azek. So that's my piece of the puzzle.
His perception of replacements is mostly based on his insistence that replacements look/be exactly like the old windows. So we're talking custom-built true divided lights. One bid was prepared with a materials cost that was over 12 grand. Since his taste won't shrink to meet his budget, I got some work.
And other than really crummy-looking paint, his windows aren't in all that bad of shape. New glazing compound, replacing a few cracked panes along the way, then rehanging the storms, will leave him with a very workable result. And it will probably be a good solution for the rest of his life (20 - 30 yrs?).
I guess I'll just do more of what I did yesterday -- carefully yanking on that prybar, and praying.
Unless you're the lead dog, the view just never changes.
I am not a pro.But I worked on a door that was hacked through a concrete wall that was much the same. The casing and on one side the jamb was wedged between the floor and the header was all that "held it".I used "held it" because it was about a 2" lean into the room. I got a few other things to hold it in place. But mostly those there temporary and I filled the gaps with the low expansion foam. Did a great job.Is this an option - Remove the casing on the sides, but leave the top for temporary support. Then use the low expanding foam in the side.Then the next day you can pull of the top and foam it and put in new cases all around.
I doubt that many of the windows I see installed today will be in as good a shape fifty years from now as the ones you are dealing with. Maybe the installer didn't do such a poor job?
I doubt that many of the windows I see installed today will be in as good a shape fifty years from now as the ones you are dealing with.
Maybe -- I'll probably not be around then, so I'm not worried.
Maybe the installer didn't do such a poor job?
Perhaps you're right.
Anyway, the job has now progressed past the point where my original question is relevant. All of the trim has been pulled off, and most has been replaced.
I did add a few screws to each window -- through the jambs and into the studs. I was careful to not overdrive the screws, so as not to affect the shape of the window frame. I re-checked sash movement after adding the screws.
Unless you're the lead dog, the view just never changes.
I disagree that knowing how they should have been installed isn't relevant now - I think it is. When dealing with older house parts it is often important to know how they should have been installed in order to avoid doing something now that messes something up, like filling in the air gap between brick walls.In this case, maybe the windows need to 'float' in the opening in order to avoid binding or cracking when the house moves.I'm not saying that they are or are not installed correctly as they are now, as I have no idea, but knowing how they were supposed to be installed IS important.Would you say that how new windows are supposed to be installed isn't important? I doubt it.
I think you misread me. It is important to know how they WERE/ARE installed. How they SHOULD have been installed is only a matter of theory that haas little to do with how well the casing will or will not come off.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I rarely shim and nail windows thru their jambs; the usual way is to nail thru the exterior casings, thru the sheathing, into the studs. About the only time I shim is if I have to pull a window in or out to meet to interior wall.
If you're just replacing the outside casings, you can pry them off, then fasten the new one with SS trim screws into the jambs, and then just renail ( or screw) thru the outer edge into the studs.
Are these the old "triple track" windows? I thought they had a nailing fin that was used to attach them to the rough window framing.
I've replaced a lot of aluminum framed, single glazed windows here in northern CA and they all have a nailing fin. Most of the time, the fins have a few 6d nails thru them to hold the window in place.
Are these the old "triple track" windows? I thought they had a nailing fin that was used to attach them to the rough window framing.
I've never heard the "triple track" term used to describe wood windows. It's always been used to describe storm windows, so I'm not following your question.
And no, there is no nailing fin.
Anyway, read on. These questions are now moot, since the job has progressed past this step.
Unless you're the lead dog, the view just never changes.
"Triple tracks" were (are?) those old aluminum windows with a fixed upper pane and three movable panes. The movable panes included two glass panes (one was a storm window) and a screen. They were used extensively in the 50's & 60's but I haven't seen any for years (except at my Mom's house in MO. - lol)