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1st and Last Time for Hardie Backer

Frankie | Posted in Construction Techniques on November 9, 2004 09:42am

Using Hardie Backer 1/2″ panels for a bathroom floor and wall sheathing. What a PITA! They look really nice but require an electric saw or roto-zip to cut. DUST EVERYWHERE! It’s like cutting GWB with a circ saw. The dust is so fine. I have to go outside to cut even the smallest peice. And then I get covered with dust and track it in…Cough, Cough!

I hate the stuff. What am I missing? Everyone else swears by it. I’m swearing AT it. Sheathing the floors and walls takes twice the time due to the traveling outside to cut. I’m getting killed on this job.

Never heard anyone else complain about this, so I thought I would try it out. What am I missing?

F

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Replies

  1. User avater
    JeffBuck | Nov 09, 2004 09:46pm | #1

    don't ya think everyone would be complaining about drywall if they tried cutting it with a circular saw too?

    Probably even says how to cut it somewhere on it ...

    score and snap.

    http://www.jameshardie.com/backerboard/

    take a look at the picture on the first page of their website ... left hand side ... near the top.

    score ...

    bet he'll snap next.

    and for hardi ... a score tool isn't even needed ... a utility knife works just fine.

    Jeff

    1. Frankie | Nov 09, 2004 09:50pm | #2

      No Sh_t! Don't you think I tried score and snap!? It just breaks off in delaminated peices if even on the score line.

      AUGH!

      1. User avater
        JeffBuck | Nov 09, 2004 10:13pm | #3

        new blade?

        press hard ....

        score twice ...

        btw .. works just fine for me.

        must be just you?

        wonder if you got a "bad batch"?

        Jeff

        1. woodbutch777 | Nov 10, 2004 05:15am | #12

          It says score and snap and that way works good enough until you start to spread the mastic or thinset and little chunks pull out even after a thorough shop vac. I use my 4" grinder with a diamond blade outside and up wind and diamond tipped drill bits for pipe holes and electrical boxes.

          I saw a skilsaw/wetsaw at home depot for about $ 80.00 it looked like a good idea but never heard of the name brand.

          And if you think cutting durock sucks try man handling the 4x8 sheets by yourself to please a tile guy who hates wall seams!!!!

      2. Varoom | Nov 09, 2004 10:34pm | #4

        LOL!!  When I did my bath, I cut the stuff two ways.  First was with my recip saw with a carbide blade.  Dusty as heck and like you I did it outside.   Cut it like butter though.

        Other way was with a carbide tipped scoring knife.  Worked good, not as clean a cut, but good enough.  I put on a glove after I removed the skin off of my knuckles though.

        Edit - read you email again.  I was using cement board for my job.

        Edited 11/9/2004 3:56 pm ET by varoom

        1. Wylcoyote | Nov 10, 2004 12:33am | #5

          in my experience score and snap is the easiest and fastest way to go - I have slowly gotten better at this using a large carp square and sharp utility knife

          Bought a Makita fiber cement saw and hooked it to cheap shop vac for cutouts, etc. - works like a charm.

          Don't breath that dust!  wear a mask, hold your breath if lots of it around, etc - very nasty stuff - silicosis of the lungs would be a horrible way to go.

          Wylie

          Success = Work+ Risk + Luck, in that order.  Muriel Seibert

    2. Mooney | Nov 10, 2004 02:35am | #6

      That may be a carbide cuttter.

      On the other hand it may be advertisement .  I cut it , but Im hanging around here . lol.

      Tim Mooney

  2. User avater
    dieselpig | Nov 10, 2004 03:24am | #7

    So what is it that you're planning on using as a tile backer in the future that is going to make your life so much easier?

    If this stuff was easy everyone would be doing it.

    1. blue_eyed_devil | Nov 10, 2004 03:28am | #8

      Do a dry pack.

      blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos

      Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!

      1. User avater
        dieselpig | Nov 10, 2004 03:34am | #9

        Cuz that's easier than working with backer board?!?!

        1. blue_eyed_devil | Nov 10, 2004 04:19am | #10

          Yes...if you know what your doing with it.

          No one uses backer board here in SE Michigan. They are all mudders, and its pretty amazing at how effecient those guys are. They've got some pretty clever techniques...but they do it every day, every job. Of course it all comes down to skill...kinda like drywall tapers...the good ones get it done quite fast...guys like me struggle.

          I've only drypacked floors. I don't have any experience on the walls. I've used cement board on one shower. I dry packed that floor because it seemed easier to slope to the center drain.Warning! Be cautious when taking any advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, some of it is viewed as boogerin and not consistent with views of those who prefer to overbuild everything...including their own egos

          Additionally, don't take any political advice from me. I'm just a parrot for the Republican talking points. I get all my news from Rush Limbaugh and Fox and Friends (they are funny...try them out)!

          1. User avater
            dieselpig | Nov 10, 2004 04:23am | #11

            Maybe you're right.....but I'm not buying.  Drypack a wall or hang some backer board?  I'll take the backer board everytime.

          2. blue_eyed_devil | Nov 10, 2004 06:02am | #14

            I don't blame you Dieselpig. All I know is I asked one tile guy why he doesn't use backerboard. He was in the middle of mudding a tub surround. He kinda grunted..."too slow"...and went back to mudding.

            He's tack screeds level on both sides of the wall that he was working. He'd fill the mud in and scrape all the excess off with a variety of metal angle irons. He'd then remove the wood screeds and fill the slots with mud. They all have helpers feeding them mud which they all mix by hand in mortar boxes in the garage. They carry the mud up in buckets. I don't know how long it takes, but I'll try to find out.

            blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!

          3. FastEddie1 | Nov 10, 2004 07:56am | #18

            They all have helpers ...   That's the key phrase.  It's so much easier to use hardie when it's a one man show.Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!"  Then get busy and find out how to do it.  T. Roosevelt

  3. durabond5 | Nov 10, 2004 05:34am | #13

    Next time use Durock or Wonder-Board. You do it the same as wallboard. But score and snap with carbide cutter. I cut the back side with a utility knife after I snap, as the carbide cutter gets caught on the strings.Then for notches and circles use a roto-zip. You will never use Hardie again. And use liquid nails. You don't have to buy the special screws; dry-wall screws work. or nails. The glue is what ultimately provides the tenacious bond.

    1. User avater
      JeffBuck | Nov 10, 2004 08:08am | #19

      "And use liquid nails."

      hope U aren't talking about floors too ...

      Jeff

    2. sharpblade | Nov 10, 2004 02:25pm | #20

      >>>  And use liquid nails. You don't have to buy the special screws; dry-wall screws work. or nails. The glue is what ultimately provides the tenacious bond.

      How does using glue work for you? Do you use a waterproof barrier behind the CBU )poly) or don't bother?  I do and the glue won't help much sticking to it. Plus, if one is gonna use glue, "liquid nails" isn't what I'd rely on.

      Also, WRT using drywall screws, they don't work too good for me. Because they don't have the countersink fins like the special screws, the heads stick out more than I like, on some jobs with thin tile it matters (too fussy?)  If I try to tighten them up good they may snap.

      1. FastEddie1 | Nov 10, 2004 04:22pm | #21

        I agree on the countersinkg fins of the durock screws.  Makes it much easier to get the heads set flush.  I have used deck screws when I need a longer screw, and there is a brand that has the little nibs.

        Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!"  Then get busy and find out how to do it.  T. Roosevelt

        1. ClaysWorld | Nov 10, 2004 07:46pm | #24

          I used to go around with a countersink and recess before screwing, worked good didn't like the extra step but solved the head proud problem. But the final cure which I really like is using my paslode framing nailer with galv ringshank 2", need to set up nail depth carefully but other then that works great.

          1. mitch | Nov 10, 2004 07:53pm | #25

            "It's like cutting GWB with a circ saw."

            what the he11 does the president have to do with this?!  loose talk like that will have the secret service knocking on your door...   ;-)

            m

      2. durabond5 | Nov 11, 2004 04:13am | #35

        I glue directly to the studs. If you do it right, no water should ever get behind there. If water is getting past a tiled and caulked surround, plastic won't help. I never had problems with drywall screws. But  my nail-gun works better because it's faster and you never have to worry about the heads.

        1. User avater
          JeffBuck | Nov 11, 2004 04:36am | #36

          "If water is getting past a tiled and caulked surround, plastic won't help"

          these's a difference between "water" ... and "water vapor/ moisture" ...

          enough of a difference to grow mold and rot a house from the inside out.

          Jeff

        2. FastEddie1 | Nov 11, 2004 06:20am | #39

          Lemme see if I undersrand your method:  you glue  hardie directly to the studs, then use your air nailer with the depth hopefully set correctly (probably get a couple of blow-throughs or proud nails until the adjustment is made), and then thinset & tiles.  Seems like you're taking a few shortcuts.

          Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!"  Then get busy and find out how to do it.  T. Roosevelt

          1. blue_eyed_devil | Nov 12, 2004 03:09am | #41

            Did I hear the word SHORTCUTS?

            Hail hail...I have competition?

            Ed, don't condemn Durbond for trying something "innovative". Actually, it's not that radical of an idea. The nails are only needed to allow the glue time to set, but they will hold a great deal either way.

            And...your assumption that it takes a few trys to get the proper set is illfounded too. Durabond might just have a nail gun specifically set up to ALWAYS nail flush....we do...it's a Hitachi (I think) that shoots full headed coil nails. A roofing gun would install that backer board just as good as any screw too. A wide crown stapler might even work.

            blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!

  4. MSA1 | Nov 10, 2004 06:04am | #15

    I've never had a problem with Hardie, I cut it with a circ saw but it is totally dusty. You really need to wear a mask with it.

    1. allaround | Nov 10, 2004 06:14am | #16

      A direct quote from Hardie's installation instructions -

      "NEVER use high speed power tools (e.g. circular saws, grinders, etc) to cut James Hardie Products indoors as they may generate excessive respirable silica dust."

  5. mikeys | Nov 10, 2004 07:00am | #17

    I use 1/4" hardiebacker and siding shears.

    Smile. It could be worse. You could be me working for you.

  6. billyg | Nov 10, 2004 05:24pm | #22

    Try to find Wedi backer board in your area.  No dust and (almost) no weight.

    http://www.wedi.co.uk/tileback.htm

    Billy

    1. jimblodgett | Nov 10, 2004 07:24pm | #23

      Well I'm sure glad to see this thread.  I am going to be installing some wall tile in a bathroom this winter and I haven't done much of it through the years.

      Got Michael Byrnes book (even got him to sign it for me at JLCLive) and have been reading through the threads the Breaktime search engine pulls up for me and I still can't tell if there are times when you SHOULD use the Hardi-type-backer, and other times when you SHOULD use Wonderboard/Durorock. 

      So how about it?  Is it personal preference?  Or are there times when one is a better choice than the other(s)?

      thanks

      1. JJV | Nov 10, 2004 07:58pm | #26

        I think it's probably personal preference-like anything else, the other stuff (Durock etc.) has been around for a while and Hardie is kinda new, so I'm sure a lot of guy s prefer the older stuff because it has a track record.  I personally prefer Hardie because I think it's just easier to work with, but then that has been my experience only.  Too often I see Durock or Wonderboard sheets with crumbing edges or something like that and it's just turned me off. 

      2. User avater
        JeffBuck | Nov 10, 2004 10:26pm | #28

        personal preference ...

        I like Durock.

        use durock on my own stuff ...

        but use hardi and others when I sub tile ....

        what ever the GC provides. All installs just about the same.

        some say hardi is lighter/easier ....

        maybe 'cause I'm such a big/tough guy ... durock's no problem for me?

        dorock is easier to bust a hole thru for the plumbing with a hammer ... hole stays about the size you want ... the others seem to flak off and make the hole bigger.

        and remember ... 1/4 .. 1/2 .... only difference is the height you'll gain or lose.

        it's just a big shim that the tiles stick to better than ply ... nothing structural.

        the rough side of the durock does seem to hold just a bit better in those times when I have to pop a tile the next day for one reason or another.

        after this tile job .. you'll have to play with some ditra ... nice stuff to work with.

        Jeff

        1. sharpblade | Nov 11, 2004 12:03am | #29

          >>and remember ... 1/4 .. 1/2 .... only difference is the height you'll gain or lose.

          it's just a big shim that the tiles stick to better than ply ... nothing structural.

          Very true for floors and countertops, how about walls? It wouldn't be enough to use 1/4" directly on the studs, but 1/2" would do (stronger than DW). Or do you always have something structural behind it?

          1. User avater
            JeffBuck | Nov 11, 2004 12:25am | #30

            walls ... you are right.

            I use 1/2.

            never thought of 1/4 as a possibility for walls ... so I didn't even think of making that disclaimer ...

            just bare studs .... poly or felt ... and the cbu ... for showers.

            Jeff

          2. Frankie | Nov 11, 2004 12:33am | #31

            Thanks for the tips and anecdotes.

            Basically it's dusty stuff. I've used cement board for years and in my older age I am having trouble changing. Busting a hole trough CBU's is so much easier, lower tech and almost dust free. No caring panels around, risking marring hall walls and twisting my back out and having a remore staging area.

            I'll probably try it out 2 more times. That's my 3 Tries Rule - Food, women, tools, or materials - try everything 3 times before passing final judgement.

            F

      3. NPitz | Nov 11, 2004 01:29am | #32

        Jim -

        I prefer 1/2" Hardi-backer over cement board... I think it's a lot easier to use. I always hated the uneven cuts and the gritty cement pieces all over the place... scratching up all those new fixtures.

        I can't believe only one person has mentioned shears for cutting Hardi-backer. I bought a set of Kett shears that cuts up to 1/2" fiber cement, so I use them for all my siding jobs, and for cutting tile backer for bathrooms. No dust, no fuss, no muss. I also bought the metal cutting shear head for the Kett shear. Makes cutting sheet metal or even stucco wire a lot faster, easier, and less bloodshed.

        One of my best tool purchases for making life easier and no doubt has repaid itself several times over.

        1. jimblodgett | Nov 11, 2004 05:39am | #38

          Thanks Nick.  How the heck are you two getting through fall without hockey?

          Thanks, Jeff.

          1. NPitz | Nov 11, 2004 02:02pm | #40

            Beer, Jim. Lots and lots of beer.

            I really miss hockey. Especially at this time of year when us Philadelphia fans can pretend that we might actually win something this year. I've watched a couple AHL games but it's jsut not the same to me.

            Hope all is well with you.

  7. JohnHens | Nov 10, 2004 10:17pm | #27

    Take a look at Denshield (available at Menards). I have been using it for 2 1/2 years now as a backer for tile in wet areas. Easy to use and the only backer product that I know of theat offers a lifetime warranty if installed correctly according to the manufactureres insrtuctions. Cuts like drywall with a utility knife.

    I have used it for counter tops also.

    1. FastEddie1 | Nov 11, 2004 02:37am | #33

      Denshield cuts like sheetrock ... cuz it is sheetrock.  Just has  a fancy wrapper.  Did you read the required installation instructions?  You hav to seal every penetration and  cut with silicone caulk.  That's not real convenient.  Denshiled is ok for damp areas, but I won't use it for tubs or showers.  It's a compromise.

      Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!"  Then get busy and find out how to do it.  T. Roosevelt

  8. dlb | Nov 11, 2004 02:45am | #34

    I use a scroll saw with a concrete cutting blade to do my dirty work. I get very accurate cuts with little mess. Just food for thought!

    The undisciplined life is not worth examining.

  9. tyke | Nov 11, 2004 05:32am | #37

    shears.

    they work great. absolutely no dusk.

    pc, kett,snapper  etc.........

    tyke

    Just another day in paradise

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