I was looking to hire another worker, anyone from green to a good carp. My 1 employee calls me the other night to tell me a past coworker, who is a good friend to my employee and an acquaintance of mine, is looking for a job. Competant individual willing to work for a good price relative to his skills.
I have been trying to groom my orig worker to become a lead carp to give me more freedom to do marketing, sales,officework….etc. And it seemed it was working.
But now that he has a friend around it seems he has lost a little professionalism and is reverting back to an employee with no vision towards the future and what I am trying to build. Lots of joking around, loud laughing, slowing pace of work, and questioning of my authority. I have been friends with this guy for a long time and we have worked together more than our share( I fired him twice for this same unprofessional attitude) and I rehired him because he said hes made changes. And things were really good until now.
Mind you we remodel homes and on the particular job we are on know the wife is an at home web designer so shes working on the first floor while we are tearing the roof off the bungalow. So shes 3/4″ plaster away.
Question is what is the best way to bring this ship back around? I really believe it can work. But what is the best way to commmunicate to them what I expect? Company agenda/mission? Job site rules?
On another note, I am an avid reader of all books business, motivational, financial among many more. I was thinking of giving a $.25 raise per hour for every book read on a list I would provide. My thinking is if I can get employees to ingest more info, the more educated they would be aboutthe big picture. I am going to bring this one up tomorrow and see what kind of response I get. Maybe that willl tell me where their minds are at?
Thanks for letting me vent some frustrations!
Replies
.25 per hour to read one book tells me that you are not the business leader that I'm looking to follow.
You are much too generous and lenient.
A true lead carpenter leads without being "groomed". If you have to groom him, he's not a lead carpenter. Since you were looking for a lead carpenter and you now know you don't have one, keep looking. Hire a third carpenter and don't hesitate to trade up. You've already given your present guy a few shots. Now, face reality and give someone else a few shots.
If you stay with the status quo, you are settling.
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Ya reality sucks sometimes. My thinking with the .25 was that is only $10 a week and if they would read 4-8 books the knowledge gained would offset the small investment on my end.
For conversation's sake, which books would you have them read first? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
7 habits of highly effective people would be my immediate go to. Id almost give .50 for this one alone.
Dale carnegies would be next.
Then I would start on the business books.
This actually came about as I was on the throne tonite thinking about ways to communicate to my current/future employees the importance of customer service.
I sell these jobs as a FIRST CLASS experience! I assure professionalism throughout the job. I tell them we are not your typical construction company. We work hard on much more than just the actual work. Cleanliness, open communication etc...
Anyway, I was reading Smart Business magazine and read an article by John DiJulius titled The 10 Commandments: Common Principles That Differentiate World Class Customer Service Organizations From The Competition. I immediately thouhgt BINGO!!!!! This is exactly whot Im looking for. And it went from there.
Now that you've read those books, start looking for those qualities in the new people that you interview. Stephen and I have had a minor disagreement about whether you can teach someone a new talent. The disagreement came about from a book called First, Break all The Rules which tells the managers to hire talent and let the talent do what they do best. They warn about hiring for smarts and then trying to teach talent. It sounds like you are falling into the trap of trying to remold your carpenter. A true lead carpenter would inherrently understand the significance of the lead carpenter position. Your guy sounds like he needs an Officer and he'd make a good soldier. If you try to force the Officer on him, he'll fail at both. It might be that he possesses the qualities and talent and he's too young. Even some guys at 50 are too young. Don't force it....just look for the talent that you seek elsewhere (new hire). Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
How to best approach the situation? Directly to both in the mornig? My orig carp over lunch/dinner?
I can understand some aloofness from the new hire, but the orig is well schooled in my way of doing things so I expect much more out of him.
Hiring another big money carp right now could be tough. I would either have to let one go or try and turn this storm into a sunny day.
Yep...let one go. Thats exactly what you need to do here. The best approach would be to set the record straight the first thing in the morning. Meet your "lead" at his truck door and simply tell him: "I haven't been too keen on your professionalism the last few days/weeks or whatever....if it doesn't improve rapidly, I'd suggest you start thinking about finding new employment."He'll sulk for a few hours but you'll feel better. If he quits, you'll have room for that new hire. If you're going to lead....lead. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Thanks, I needed that.
They can read all they want. But it is the practice that you need. And that comes from a leader.My dad is a salesman, above average and 75 YO. has read and listened to thousands of motivational tapes and books. And never has put them into real practice. I went the manager route. I can do, but I lead much better. Hire a lead. Be a leader. And grow your vision!Be well and enjoy the true experts here, I am a piker. You have some REAL leaders on this board. Learn and grow. learn and grow...dan
>>I fired him twice for this same unprofessional attitude
That's all that you need to say. I would lose the new guy, and start looking for a new #1 who you have no history with and who does not need all this coddling. How can you run a professional business with these distractions?
i heard a long time ago that one boy was worth half a man, but that two boys weren't worth a damn!
" I fired him twice for this same unprofessional attitude"
A lepard never changes his spots.
" I was thinking of giving a $.25 raise per hour for every book read on a list I would provide"
Money is a great reward, but a lousy motivator. For .25 an hour I will read whatever books you want. And whether I use the info or not you are stuck paying me as long as I am around. Reward your people based on how they work, not how they think they will or say they will work. DanT
I've faced this situation before. Give a warning, then get rid of the worst offender. When I did this, I expected a lot of fallout from his buddies. Instead, they thanked me. Said it was hard to be serious with him goofing off all the time. Morale went way up, and productivity followed. It shows them you are serious about your goals.
I wouldn't worry about getting them to read. You do the reading, then teach them the concepts they need to fulfill your expectations. If they're not already readers, I doubt you'll be able to make them into one.
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
I hope it doesnt get that far, but if horseing around continues even after we talk then ya one will have to go.
I can sense a reluctant agreement coming on their part with my biggest concern being the s**t talked about me when Im not there. I am fine with the talking its the customers perspective of the company if she hears disgruntled workers bit***ng about the boss when hes not around. Again, just not professional.
"if she hears disgruntled workers bit***ng about the boss when hes not around. Again, just not professional."If you are convinced that is the case, you have people you cannot trust.I don't work with anyone I cannot put my trust in. No fun to be used and misused.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
divide and conquer!
give the new guy some cake work for a couple of days and maybe take him out for an extended lunch (business meeting). intentionally ignore the lead
the lead will start to question his role and fight for position, which is what you need.
I've always tried to be a friend to those who work for me, overlooking their personal problems and focusing on instilling my values while teaching new skills and techniques. I believe that's a sound approach...for as far as it can take each employee. Of course those who don't pay attention and get up to speed quickly get the axe.
Where I've made costly mistakes was in being too lenient, just as you seem to have been...giving several fresh starts to guys who really didn't understand or appreciate the importance of making significant changes in their attitude/behavior toward the work we are doing.
The one thing I've done which has worked well with otherwise good employees is to lose my friendly attitude with them when they aren't in sync with "the program" and begin adding small disciplinary changes to the daily routine.
I tell the guy that if I can't get him to change his attitude, I'm going to have to come down on him with rules about how small things are done. I start with pay deductions for tardiness and tell him that the job will get more like a military operation, day by day, until his attitude toward the work changes and he begins to see it as the most important thing in his daily life.
Those who can understand and accept a bit of forced discipline usually become very good employees. Those who can't deal with it eventually get POed and quit.
So my conclusion, after many years and over one hundred employees, is that it's better to begin with a few small rules which give some guidance about attitude/behavior, along with an educational talk about my company's philosophy and it's aims. They should each have an effect on the person's mental state.
When the response isn't there, it's a good indication that the person isn't prepared to work for a living in this trade. I tell him/her that very directly and give him/her one more opportunity, no more than a few hours, to get the message.
Leading by example is significant but so is putting the example into a set discipline which is meant to be followed. It shouldn't be an all consuming discipline, just enough guide lines to make the path clear and precise, easy to understand and follow.
When I am working alongside we/they work very good, like a well oiled machine. Its when I give them a task together is when issues are raised. Maybe like everyone has said, if hes not a leader he never will be and when I put the two together neither one leads they just goof their way through.
I dont like the slow torture, I would rather cut it off and find someone new.
That said, I woke up this mornig, after stewing all night, and came to the conclusion that he just isnt a top guy. Like someone said earlier, hes a very good no.2 guy, just not a no.1. I think I am at peace with that now. I will to be on the job at all times now. keep us on schedule and as soon as I line up enough work I will look to bring on a big money no.1.
I agree with your assessment about personality types. I believe that one way to judge leadership, early on, is to see how well each person follows simple rules and other instructions.
Another thing that helps bring out leadership is financial incentive, right from day one. When a person sees an opportunity for advancement, say $5/hr as a lead carpenter, he's much more likely to want to learn rapidly and cooperate fully with "the program".
Another aspect of hiring that we haven't raised is how and where we look for the kind of person we want on our crew. Like you, I've often gone with the flow, hiring friends of current employees who seem motivated but is that really the best way?
I've also spoken with high school shop teachers and guidance counselors. They've turned out to be very good at evaluating attitude and ability.
I've never tried the obvious, a state employment office, but it seems like it would be worthwhile to go in and speak with someone.
Anyway, best wishes for a happy and prosperous future.
You need to run your company like a cult. Your cult is different than all the other cults out there. You want people who buy into your way of doing business and are comfortable with that. Your way of doing business will make your employees and you more money. You figured it out and came up with a plan. First class experience for the client. Awesome. Now go out and make it work. There are plenty of people willing to pay more for good service. Why do poeple buy BMWs when they could have bought a Saturn?You need employees who are first class well rounded people who buy into your program. People who will drink the Kool Aid for you. Their livelihood and lives depend on your business sense. If they don't buy into the First Class Construction Company Cult then they can join the Smokin' Tatooed Guys Who Have Their Wallet Chained To Their Belt, Who Cuss And Carry On In Front Of Clients And Don't Give A Rat's Butt But Pose As People Who Do When The Boss Is Around Cult. Best of luck.Constructing in metric...
every inch of the way.
Thats exactly what Im trying to do. The FCC cult provides a completely professional remodeling experience. I need guys that buy into that. Thanks
sounds like you would be great to work with.
i learned in the marine corp that a leader takes care of his people first, thats what makes him a leader, and to do that you kinda hafta care about your people.
what you say about trying to be a friend is perfect. i have a tough time taking care of people i don't care about.
somebody that does care is going to get my best effort. of course i have abourt a 1 in 15 - ####/attaboy ratio!
i'm glad this thread came up...... helped me jell my thoughts on my new employee
you'd think after 30 years of hiring and firing it would be easier... but it ain't .. sometimes you just gotta step up and do the right thing
i liked Holy Hammer's analogy too.... good oneMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You need to hire me.
you're right..... come on downMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
what you say about trying to be a friend is perfect. i have a tough time taking care of people i don't care about.
The other side of that coin isn't always very profitable. I worked one otherwise very good year when I spent most of my off hours with the guys on my crew, drinking beer and shooting pool in the neigborhood bar for a couple of hours after work everyday.
Going home for a shower, I'd be back out in the same places after dinner, having some laughs and dancing with the girls who came out in the evenings.
Even on weekends our crew would often hang out together, going fishing, exploring caves, rafting the river, whatever came up.
I saw nothing wrong with this and still don't, except for one thing. I couldn't keep a real discipline up at work. Things were just a little too relaxed, particularly with one guy who was a great friend to everyone but couldn't stay focused and produce.
It didn't seem very important to me at the time but having one guy coasting, not earning his wages, is enough to slice profits in half when working in a competitive business environment.
I didn't figure that out until after we'd run out of work and I started looking at the books, wondering why I didn't have more in the bank after a busy spring, summer and fall.
Of course I'd been spending my own paycheck, like everyone else, on good times. We were all in our twenties, me a few years older, so it was great to be alive and have so many pleasant diversions.
Still, I figured that there should be several thousand dollars more in profits, having built a half dozen nice vacation homes that year. After paying up all the withholding money and settling the workmen's comp premium, I was nearly dead broke.
Where'd my profit money go? Did I really work that whole season for the same wages as the other guys? I was stunned...really.
Then I took a long weekend away from my good friends on the crew and had a very sober look back at how I'd been operating on the job, day by day.
It wasn't a revelation, just a slow dawning. I recognized a lack of discipline which seemed natural with friends but didn't fit the short money that every sub was working for in those lean times.
Specifically, I'd gotten into a bad habit of quiting a half hour early...to be a good guy. Adding up those unproductive, paid hours was sadly enlightening.
And then there was the matter of Geoffrey, everyone's buddy who laughed so warmly and enjoyed being on the crew so much that I couldn't imagine firing the guy. I didn't understand it at the time but he probably had A.D.D., in addition to his other beer drinking impairment.
Nonetheless, he didn't produce nearly enough work to earn his pay. His slow pace often impeded others and distracted me at times too.
On that crew, I always assigned work individually, according to skill level and desire. If I were to do it again, with the same cast of characters, I'd partner Geof with the guy who always wanted to power his way through whatever I gave him.
That guy would've made Geof keep up with him, even if all he did was carry materials and drive nails.
My other change would be to work the full eight hours and go home after a couple of beers, say a half hour of winding down with my friends. I'd probably still have been out again later, looking for a little romantic relaxation, but I'd have been more disciplined about the time spent on that endeavor as well.
In today's dollars I gave away at least a thousand a week in unearned wages. In hindsight, I probably should've let Geof go early on that summer, when it became apparent that he couldn't stay focused. In many respects, I'm still glad that I didn't.
He needed that liberating experience of good times as much as I did, working with some real friends...before settling into a factory job where the machines helped him to keep in his attention on his work.
I just wish that the economy would've allowed for growth that year, in that rural place. Makes me hope that world economy will take a new turn in this century, one that allows everyone to grow ecomomically in a more predictable way.
Edited 6/4/2008 8:17 pm by Hudson Valley Carpenter
That sounds like the back cover of a graet book. I would have done the same in my younger years.....
"It is what it is."
blue ( jim allen) and i discussed something similar to your situation in some detail maybe 4 months ago or so.
we each have different opinions----AND- i don't think either of us is right---,however i think blue is MORe right about this than I was.
Why do i think this?-----'cause i have tried it Blue's way for the last 4 months----and have got much better( but not perfect) results
simply---assume that the employee will not change( for conversations sake we will ignore all the MANY exceptions to that rule
simply assume they won't change.
1)the guy who you WANT to be the lead----he has proved to you time and again that he WON'T be the lead---accept it.
2)- the new guy you hired---the friend of the guy who WON'T be the lead----hiring him was a mistake I think---for 2 reasons
a)--you STILL don't have a lead
b)---since they were friends BEFORE they became co-workers/fellow employees---THAT relationship is the dominant one. It would be cool if you hired somebody and they THEN became friends with a co-worker----their status as fellow employees would be the primary one-----but the way things are now----if you fire one---the other will likely leave as a show of support for his buddy
3)---what I would do----is immediately begin dilligently searching for a lead-----and hire him.---If you wait untill you have yet more business----you may never get around to it
once you hire the lead---one or both of the other guys get's shown the door. discuss this with the lead before he is hired--so he knows what and why it's happening
look at it this way----you have coddled one of these guys for a LOOOOONG time---given him many opportunities to "step up"?
enough is enough---wether you personally like him or not---he does not meet your needs and he is costing you money and reputation----the very things you need to acquire the true lead with.
Very best wishes to you,
stephen
Edited 6/4/2008 1:11 pm ET by Hazlett
Edited 6/4/2008 1:12 pm ET by Hazlett
Didn't you post on this previously? Like a few months ago. If this is the same guy I'd say you've invested quite a bit already and it seems he's and if he's had three strikes I'd think maybe its time to part ways.
Your desire to educate is admirable but how would you ever know he read the books? Would it be worth your time to have to quiz or test him on the content? I think leadership is inherent in a person and can't be taught, only developed. That is if he's a donkey you aren't going to turn him into a horse.
No Ted I did not post on this before.
The conclusion: The employee in question is not a leader therefore I will not try and make him a leader. He is a decent cut guy at best not worthy of the $ I am paying him but thats my fault not his. Barring a change in attitude I will look to hire a Lead Carp to take over when Im not around. before this happens though I will be installing some rules of operation that I expect all employees to follow while they are at work. Printed out for and signed by each employee. That way there is no grey area anymore.
The rules I am installing are very simple.
Show up to work on time ready to work i.e. boots tied, company shirt tucked in.
It is employees responsibility to represent First Class Construction in a positive light,
Be courteous to everyone at all times, homeowners,suppliers, neighbors etc.
No swearing
No smoking or chewing
I dont feel I am asking the world by enforcing these, IMO they are pretty much normal operating procedures for anyone at any job. Am I wrong? If not what rules have you had to put in place to deal with a difficult employee?
Thanks,
Matt
I was once a difficult employee. Then I shaped up and became a employer. Now I'm a model employee. Not in the construction industry however.
First - I am not too good with people management.
My tack is sheet or get off the pot. One discussion, sometimes two with a young guy, then hit the road, Jack!
Somebody probably has to go, esp when they show disrespect to you. I had one guy poison a crew one winter that way. Luckily I saw it early, fired his #### and saved the job and the crew.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
We've made the mistake twice (just to be sure) NEVER HIRE FRIENDS!
Either they both goof off or one resents the other, resulting in lost production, poor morale and more work for he who has to supervise.
Fire one of them and hire a solid laborer for the other to manage. If that doesn't work, keep the laborer and find a good carp.
Just my $0.02
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.
- Fyodor Dostoyevski
i was 22 and the carpenter for a siding company and remodeling. There was a helper that was there but they needed another one so i got my buddy a job . The first helper talked him into sabotaging me.I did not even know it but the boss kept asking me if that was my friend and i kept sticking up for him. One day i came and both helpers were gone. The boss took me aside and told me all the nasty things they were doing behind my back. Rather then lose me or have this garbage spread he canned both of them. Boy did i feel betrayed but everyone else looked out for me thank God