I live in an Ohio county that has no adopted building code. Furthermore, I live out in the country so there are no permits or inspections required for anything aside from the septic. This cuts both ways, actually.
After watching several new houses go up nearby, I caught the building bug and began work on specs for a new house of my own. Six-inch walls on 24-inch centers was an early “must have.” Aligning studs and rafters makes for an ideal load path from roof to foundation. Problem is, IRC wants a 2 x 6 wall supporting a second floor and roof to be on 16″ centers.
So now I’m considering several options. Feel free to comment, criticize, or add to the list!
Option 1) Do nothing. (Option 1 is always do nothing, right?) I know several 2-story houses with around here built with 2 x 6 – 24 first floors and they are still standing. Doesn’t mean it’s a good idea, though. I am in a “C” exposure — open country, on a small rise. I’m using a 100 MPH (3-sec) spec for wind shear forces. Taken in isolation, both axial loading and deflection look good. I suspect, however, that it is the combined loading that blows the deal. (Imagine compressing a short section of soda straw between your finger and thumb — then pushing against it laterally, mid-straw.)
Option 2) Sixteen-inch centers on the first-story walls only. Forget the beautiful load paths. Sure, everything else in the house is on 24-inch centers but once the sheathing and drywall are on, who will know difference? The double top plate should distribute the load OK. Thermal bridging will be on my mind…but maybe no one else will notice. Can I live with that, or will I eventually flip out like the antagonist in Poe’s “The Tell-Tale Heart”?
Option 3) Sixteen inches everywhere. ‘Nuff said.
Option 4) Sheathing inside and out on the first floor. Keep the 2 x 6 – 24 arrangement and count on the extra stiffness of an additional layer of sheathing to keep everything straight. I think this option has some merit. The inner sheathing would be in tension on the windward wall, holding the stud straight. I could eliminate inner shear walls because the house would have all needed strength in its shell. Kinda like a lobster.
Option 5) Two-by-eight studs in the first-floor walls. This would only add about $375 in framing and a little more for insulation, etc. I don’t know anyone who has 8-inch walls…but I long ago stopped worrying too much about what the neighbors think. 🙂 Surely, I could maintain my much-loved 24-inch centers with 8-inch lumber. The extra 2 inches of insulation will let me call it a “green” house, cut down some on road noise, and give Beth nice sills for her indoor herb garden next winter.
What are your thoughts?
Replies
dko,
Although you have no codes where you live, buy a copy of CABO 1&2 IRC compliant. About $55.00 and it comes with a DVD. A "Mooney Wall" will give you plenty of R- value. The 2 X 8 walls would be good for a second story pool or parking deck.
Chuck S
2 X 8 walls would be rare, and would require extension jambs everywhere.Bear
If it were me, I probably just go with option 3 and be done with it. However, if you are looking for something a little more innovative, take a look at Building Science Corporations recommendations for your climate zone. If I remember correctly, 2x6 at 24" is part of their recommended "designs that work" for cold zones. If going with 24", I'd pay more attention to the sheathing/shear wall details since a few more studs won't matter when a tornado visits.
>> Problem is, IRC wants a 2 x 6 wall supporting a second floor and roof <<
Since when does IRC want 2x6 walls to support a second floor and roof?
I frame under IRC and we frame with 2x4 walls first, second and third floor here in NJ.
Joe,
I think his concern was in the second part of his sentence:
Problem is, IRC wants a 2 x 6 wall supporting a second floor and roof to be on 16" centers.
Does he have it right? Does IRC want 16" centers in this application?
Edited 5/30/2007 11:36 pm ET by Ragnar17
Framed 2x10 walls once, in Japan. They called it" Dutch style".
We framed them on the deck, then we could'nt lift them. I think it took 6 guys to lift one ten foot wall. (with window)
Edited 5/31/2007 12:27 am by 1muff2muff
I've got a 2x10 wall!
I needed a way to support shed-type roof trusses and a 6.5" SIP wall.
BTW, the header above the guy in the pic was later moved to the other side of the wall. The shed-type roof trusses were on that side and I put the header in the wrong place the first time.
View Image
http://jhausch.blogspot.comAdventures in Home BuildingAn online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
Ragnar,I'm framing 2 and 3 stories with 2x4 walls and 16" center ceiling joists and rafters.Joe Carola
Unless I am screwed up, I don't think you are reading the IRC correctly, at least based on the IRC 2003 I am looking at. The basic table is R602.3(5) and the accompanying diagram, which specifies a max spacing of 24 " for 2x6 walls supporting one floor, roof and ceiling. (The wall doesn't support the floor it is sitting on, only the second floor.) However, you can get to the 16" requirement if you have a wall supporting two floors, roof and ceiling. But this makes a total of three floors. In high wind areas a steep roof might be counted as a "floor", but that's not in Ohio. The required spacing might be less if you have a wall height greater than 10'.
Edited 5/31/2007 12:49 am ET by SteveSchoene
Steve,
I don't know about the IRC, but under the Uniform and Cabo what you are saying is correct. 2 x 6 @ 16" o.c. when supporting a floor/wall/floor/wall/ roof.
Single floor/wall and roof would use 2 x 6 @ 24" o.c.
"Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Thank you SteveSchoene and dovetail97128 for the clarification. The quote I've seen several times (most recently yesterday) regarding framing requirements calls for 2 x 6 @ 16" for bearing walls "Maximum spacing when supporting two floors, roof, and ceiling." [IRC Table R602.3(5)]As I've said, there are no codes (or code books) around here. Ohio, I am told, tends toward BOCA. But I sense that IRC is emerging as a more uniform standard. At any rate, I read the bit above and could picture the first-floor walls supporting the second story, with its floor, the attic, with its floor, and the roof. The attic will be used for storage but apparently will not count as a second "floor" for the purposes of figuring stud spacing?Thanks, all, for your input.
It is good to see somebody actually thinking and examining options.
But 2x6 walls are a waste of your time and money. If you want green and greater efficiency, there are plenty of better ways to achieve that with 2x4 @ 16OC, or to use ICFs or SIPs.
Framing @24OC also adds a lot of other problems for you to try to deal with in trim and finish surfaces.
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Thanks, Piffin, for mentioning SIPs. I have a lot of questions concerning SIPs and will start a thread concentrating on that soon.
if you do a search for SIPS through the advanced search function you will find numerous threads covering SIPS...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
There is a decent article in this months FHB on SIPs
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The only time I've framed with 2x8 was for a "wet wall".
Maybe consider option #3, but clad exterior with 2" of styrofoam, reduce thermal bridgeing.
On one project, we skinned a few interior walls with 1/2" ply, for strength. Worked very well. If you glued and nailed ply inside and out, on tha exterior walls, why not just go with SIP's, cause that's pretty much what you'd have.
Don't know about Ohio, but here in Illinois the only 2X8 you can get is SYP. Framing walls with crooked SYP 2X8s would be a miserable exercise, IMHO. Better to use 2X6 and use blown in cells for insulation.
Never argue with a woman when she's tired — or rested.
Probably build another house when retired, will have 2x8 walls as have a few thousand 9 ft #2/btr D fir from pallets (reclaimed B757 cowling pallets), all straight.
Also, WA energy code lets you have more windows with R30 2x8 walls.
PLENTY of codes here.
I can get you R-31.5 with a 2x4 wall
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O.K. I'll bite.
How?
Cause if its any good, I'm gonna build that way.
Frame 2x4
Sheath with 1/2" of your choice.
Sray stud void full with Corbond or other urethene foam
3.5" @ R-7 = R 24.5
Then use one inch of foil faced polyisoanurate foam board for another R-7 = 31.5 plus the value of the sheathing, sheetrock, and siding.
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Couple of comments
The spray foam's highest tested rating was r7, Typically calculate r6, as There is a slight degradation after install. (so I've been led to believe) =r21
The foam board will not eliminate conducted heat loss through the studs, making the actual r value approx. 15% less.
And do you install the foil face to the sheathing?
Wall construction I was considering was:
2x6
1-2" of spray foam
Roxal batts
1/2" ply covered with 2" styrofoam sm (xps)
strapping / siding
Cost-wise, how does the poly-iso compare with sm?
Don't know what sm is. Your path sounds like alot of layers and extra labour. yes there is some degradation.The foil can be in or out with this method. If using batts instead, it depends on the climate - inside for cold heating climate and out over the sheathing for a warm climate.
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Styrofoam sm, or xps,(expanded poly styrene) R=5/"
My thinking on the 2" of spray foam in the stud bays is a cost issue. Just enough to air seal, then finish with Roxal batts. I can install the batts myself, so that keeps the labour cost down.
For the poly-iso sheets, when you say inside, do you mean cladding the ply and have the foil face the inside, or actually inside, under the drywall?
I will compare cost, but I think I might consider the poly-iso over the sm, I give up R3 but reduce the wall assembly by 1"
I'm also wondering if I go with a 2x4 stud and fill the bays completely with foam, as you suggest, what the cost difference will be compared to 2x6.
My goal is to have a wall assembly close to R30, that I can build myself. SIP's and ICF's require cranes and concrete pumps, and the house is in a rural area (cottage/retirement) so I want to minimize large, schedule sensitive mobilizations. Keep it simple stupid (KISS)
I'm still a couple of years away, so we can kick this around a bit.
Lottas kickin already. This discussion is all over the map already to where I'm dizzy! LOL
I was under impression at first that best, most efficient insulation was the goal, now I am hearing that cost is an issue.
And if this is two years away, other things canchange meanwhile.Anyway, study "Walls that work" from Corbond for some principles, and find the Building Science website, then analyse costs for your locality. There are lots of ways to skin the cat. Mike Smith is a big advocate of denspak cels. In the Mooney wall configuration, that is one of the most cost effective ways of getting good insulation value.
When my customer can afford it up front, The sprayed foam is top choice, and IMO, 3" is all you really need when the whole house is done right to control infiltration.For an economy job, I place FG batts in the stud space, and the foil faced Thermax over the studs inside to control thermal bridging and then strapping over that for the sheetrockers to screw to. Can go up to 2" with that.
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Sorry for being such a PITA, (not really, I kinda like it. :))
I have done a bit of research and will continue, but I like to get opinions from highly experienced Craftsmen, such as yourself (this is the sucking up portion) because, as you say, there are alot of ways to skin a cat. A little tweaking here and there, to balance cost against performance and quality.
Maybe we can come up with something and call it the "Karffin" wall. LOL!
Anyway, thanks for the input, you've given me a bit more to consider.
Now, about the foundation,.........
Suck away, it's the weekend!;)
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Thanks for the reminder!!
I'm packin' up and callin' it a day, see you Monday!
here's a link to the Mooney Wall thread that Tate started....
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=65624.1Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Piffin,
Do you use Corbond regularly? What are you paying per board foot out there?
About every third job. I think it was around .70/bf last time
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Piffin,considering that Corbond and foil faced polyiso are vapor impermeable, wouldn't that be like installing a double vapor barrier?
No, because the reason for not installing twin VB is to not trap other material that holds moisture and feeds mold between the two. If you have nothing between them that possibility is eliminated. Further, there must be a location of dewpoint condensation before it becomes a problem. The efficiency of foam as an insulator eliminates dewpoint condensation.
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a) plywood has a 7% moisture content ( so i've read) and that's assuming it did not get wet during construction. :-)b) one of Building Science's principles is that assemblies will get wet and as such, wall assemblies must be able do dry. in your scenario, moisture entering the assembly would get trapped.
No, not possible. There must be something you are misunderstanding about what I am saying or doing. Tell me where you think it is being trapped in which of the many walls I have described and I can tell where you are missing it.
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from the outside;siding
polyiso
sheathing
studs with closed cell spray foam in betweenif rain would get behind the siding, which it can and does, should the polyiso be not perfectly sealed, moisture may get behind the polyiso into the wall assembly.
I do the polyiso on the inside.
If I lived in the south, and used it on the exterior, there would be a rainscreen wall systen draining moisture away
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gotcha thanks
You might want to look at the Canadian R2000 house program.
I have not looked at it closely lately, but there was some innovative energy saving techniques when it was first introduced.
http://r2000.chba.ca/What_is_R2000/R2000_program.php
I just did a lumber list for an addition I’m starting next week and the first floors outside walls are 2x8 and 2x4 and will be 14” wide and 9’ high. The mud room will just be 2x8’s. The second floors outside walls are 2x8 and 2x4’s and 8’ 6” high. The second floor walls will be 14” wide.
I asked the GC why this is, and he said that the existing house is that way and the HO wants the same thing because they like the wide jambs. i asked about the mud room only being 2x8, and he didn't get that one either.
Is it envelope construction?
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>>Is it envelope construction? <<What is that?Joe Carola
It is a system used for a while in the seventies where it was basicly a house within the envelope of another house. It totaly eliminatedconductive thermal transfer and sometimes included solar heat. The two walls were separate and both were insulated.So I was thinking maybe that is the way the original house was intended to function
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Piffin,I could be the reason why the existing house was built that way. I still don't see the reason for 14" walls though. That's alright with me, it's the first time I've ever seen that before.Joe Carola
Around the time that I built my house in 79 I was going to all of the home shows.Somw one had an interesting system that went by the way side.It was 6" thick foam panels with stagger slots in it for 2x4's and it went on 6" plates.I have no idea what the space might have been..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
dko,
I assume that you want good insulation values, right? I also assume that you're a do-it-yourselfer so it would be nice if things were simple as well, right?
Please look at ICF's (insulated concrete forms)..
4 major reasons to do so..
1'st terribly energy efficent.. should cost less than 1/4 of what a stick built house with 8 inch walls costs to heat or cool) NO thermal bridging possible!
Second, very do it yourself friendly.. My sister in law finished mine when I hurt myself. She had zero construction experiance! (well she did paint and wallpaper her bedroom once) I explained to her in a 20 minute drug doped session, she started when I fell back asleep.
Third, not affected by things that affect stick built homes .. will withstand 200 MPH winds,, termites have nothing to eat, same with carpenter ants.. neither will affect structural strength. 2 hour fire rating.. Concrete won't burn and the foam used will self extinguish in absence of direct flame. Extremely durable. meets all codes.. well proven technology. Wonderful sound deadening, and if Beth likes 8 inch sills won't she love 11 inch or 13 inch or even if you want to get silly 15 inch sills?
Fourth, Cheap! (well, cheaper than 2X8 walls will be)!
Couple of other advantages only not major ones.. Sheet rock goes up real easy! you have places to screw sheetrock into every 6 inches. You do all wiring and plumbing before you pour so that's so simple that you'll be tempted to run the wiring/plumbing yourself and just let pay the electrician/ plumbers to do the final connections..
OK I'll tell you from my experiance the only bad part of this whole process. You have to buy those rubber gloves the disposable ones painters and nurses and doctors use? Other wise when you spray the foam spray you use (I use Great stuff brand from Home Depot) you'll stain your hands and it doesn't come off, it wears off and takes a week..
You see when you drill a hole in the forms (it's extremely easy to drill through foam) ;-) you will need to spray foam the hole back closed once you've run wiring thru, otherwise the cement finds the hole and leaks out causes hollering and shouting and running around.
That gives me more to think about, frenchy!What is the cost of ICF + concrete versus simply pouring a wall, then insulating inside and out with 2" of EPS? I would prefer using XPS on the outside (stiffer)...but want to compare apples to apples.I've been perusing Web sites that talk about ICFs and see photos of forms in place with a lot of wood bracing around window and door cuts. Are blowouts a major problem?My basement wall will be 10 feet high with 8 feet of backfill. I figured 12" thick with rebar would be sufficient. Again, no code book other than my handy-dandy Taunton Code Check Building. It cites IRC T404.1.1(1) for "plain concrete" which I assume means NOT reinforced. For a 9-foot wall with 7 or 8 feet of backfill, it requires 10" walls. For reinforced walls it specifies rebar size and spacing, but omits minimum wall thickness. From what I have seen of the ICF supply, a 12-inch core is definitely on the large side. Where can I find ICF specs based on house loads?
dko
My bid was over $10,000 for poured walls compared to what doing it with ICF's cost me.. That was for a simple 16x16 addition 8 foot walls. And that was uninsulated! I spoke recently to one salesman he said the going rate material costs for a wall was about $8.00 to $9.00 a sq.foot. ten foot wall 30 feet long would cost $2700.00 or build a 4000 sq.ft. two story house with a full basement and you could expect a cost of between $35,000 and $50,0000 plus the rest of the stuff.. MY friend built a 4000 sq ft. two story house for only $100,000 *
With poured walls you have to place the forms in place, wait for the wall to set and then remove the forms and put them back on the truck.. they are big heavy metal forms that are expensive..
With ICF's it's like putting together big foam leggos that weigh maybe 3- 5 pounds each? Toss the rebar into the grooves provided and take that can of great stuff and foam the seam between the levels.. except for bracing you are done! My sister-in-law did it! No pior construction experiance at all (unless you count the room she wall papered and painted)
You ask about bracing,, yeh! it's important.. however if it's the basement you can do as I did which was to back fill the outside carefully to ensure that you won't get a blowout to the outside. My soil is heavy clay and I had to be very carefull that those big clumps didn't bust things up, then all you need to do is brace the inside.. My supplier rents braces when they sell the forms, N/C! Deposit returned when braces are returned.
They have videos to show you what's involved and even if you sub out the pouring you'll save a major chunk of change..
Off the top of my head because the plant is closed I'd say that a 12 inch form is what you want for a basement.. call your ICF supplier for full details. Trust me this is a normal type question for them.. Mine was perfectly willing to do all the calculations for me.. (in fact every vendor I talked to expected to do as much)
I do know that walls made with ICF's are normally 6 inch cores.
I love building with ICF's! stand on the floor and decide where to put windows. Make a simple buck, cut a hole in the foam the rough opening size called for in the window book put the buck in, foam it in place and ,,,,..........Next!
The wonderful part of that is you can design on the spot and not miss a view that you didn't discover untill you were there.. Or design for whatever windows are available and affordable at the stores where they sell returned and surplus windows.
Pour the basement, build the first floor deck, you and your wife stand there and decide where to put whatever windows you want and the next day be ready to pour that floor! (I mean 3 pound leggos!) IT's honest to god fun!
Next floor repeat!
* he used sawmill wood to timberframe the inside and spent $6000 for his wood costs,, he spent less than $5000 for all of his windows and two main entry doors. Another words he thought outside the box.
You do people a great dis-service if you are recommending backfilling before bracing or using clay soil to backfill with, or forgetting the waterproofing.
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Piffan,
There are at least a dozen other steps I failed to mention as well. I hope you weren't under the impression that I am the worlds expert on ICF forms and I wrote a complete and total book about their installation..
I'm reasonably sure that I mentioned the video's companies offers, as well as technical help etc.. and how they should check with a building inspector etc..
I was simply being an advocate for a system that I found which has a great deal of merit..
You very kindly pointed out the reasons companies who invest heavily in forms might not be anxious to set that investment aside an embrace new technology. I had failed to mention that as well.
And yes, I always consider my labor to be free.. I suspect that's the real differance between us do-it-yourselfers and you pros.. I do it for the experiance and well, joy !While to pro's such as yourself it's a way of making a living..
Frankly I am extremely uncomfortable recommending backfilling before the pour.. I sure haven't read anyplace where such a techniques is approved or recommended. Then on top of that doing the footing and the wall at the same time? Extremely scary, especially when you consider that I cut each form into three pieces and simply foamed them back together.. Not even using the overlapping strength of forms to provide security.
Imagine that, a form cut into three pieces and stacked straight up on top of each other. (on top of the footing form) foamed together and poured with concrete.. If that doesn't sound like a recipe for disaster I don't know what is.. The only bracing I used I did so simply because it was easier to do than argue with the pump truck operator..
I've left off a couple of minor points but that's the truth. The results speak for the actaul technique but I really hesitate recommending it.
Don't forget the fact that there is a lot more to doing rebar installation than simply "Throwing it into the forms"
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piffan,
Well the forms I selected hold the rebar in place, other than bending it for corners or in the case of the bow a 6 1/2 degree bend every 22 inches. When I first used the forms the inspector wanted them tied in place and I did that, however I read the manual and they don't require that so I didn't bother with my most recent pour and everything worked just fine.
The reward form (which I've used ) it really is a matter of tossing the rebar into the forms and the little notches hold it in place during the pour. Couldn't be easier!
See that is where you can go wrong giving out advice when you don't know what you are saying!
The forms have a selection of three to five locations where you can snap the rebar into place. How strong the wall is and whether it resists the pressures of the backfill on it without cracking is highly dependent on which of those locations you use. Should be near the inner surface of the wall
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Piffan,
As I said read the instructions, On reward forms they tell you to alternate between inside and outside (I did both or two pieces of rebar per form) If you go back and read what I told the OP I said to use extra rebar because it's cheap and good insurance..
I understand that you pro's tend to do the minimum because spending extra cuts into your profit, however us Do-It-yourselfers save so much on labor charges that an extra few hundred dollars for rebar is no big deal..
Plenty of people won't ever consider doing it them selves so it shouldn't cut into the pro's income plus anyone who wants to do it themselves probably has some real definate thoughts about how it should be done..
I been there when a poorly informed guy tries to tell a pro how to do something and it's not nice.. it's hard on the amature and really hard on the pro and in the end everybody feels compromised..
When ever that happens My feelings are that a do-it-yourself type should be doing it himself.. If mistakes are made he's responsible for them and he'll either learn from them and do better in the future or quit and leave it to pro's.
I'd hate to have tried to tell a pro how to build my house the way I wanted it built.. first he'd look at me like I'm nuts and second the costs would have been insane..
I like you anyway, even if you are insane;-)
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Piffan,
I very well may be insane (I've never denied it) however the first level 5 tornado that hits near me I'll bet you come knocking on my door <G>
You don't want to talk to frenchy about cost comparisons because he always conveniently forgets to include the cost of his labour, which he figures is free.Comparing ICF to "simply pouring" a concrete wall is not the same either. Not quite anyway. Crete cures stronger in the ICF forms than in steel or plywood forms. There is the cost of the form itself to consider as well. Then you have labour to compare and exterior finishes and waterproofing can vary between wall types. And the insulation applied to a raw wall will never be attached as well as ICF insulation which is part of said wall.Another problem with comparisons is that you will rarely find a concrete forming contractor who has invested in forms, equipment and training who wants to relearn a system that puts most of his forms aside where he cannot make a return on that investment. So labour comparisons are less accurate.but in general, the cost of an ICF wall is more than an 8-10" concrete wall, until you add insulation to the concrete wall to get the two equivalent. Then the formed and insulated crete is more expensive in both materials and labour
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Seems to me that every state has a building code to follow. It just may be that the local municipality doesn't have the budget to enforce but doens't mean you can do anything you want. You still have an obligation to build it to code (hopefully better since code is just a minimum).
http://com.state.oh.us/dic/BuildingCode.htm
I've done a fair amount of work in counties that don't have a building department but I felt legally obligated to build to the state code to prevent any legal liability should it ever rear it's ugly head.
My vote is for Option 3.
Thanks for the link!