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This is for the electricians out there. I was just reading Rex Cauldwell’s article on “ten Common Wiring Problems” in issue 136, Jan 2001. Yesterday, in response to the Home De Pot 10% off sale on everything in the store, I was buying a bunch of stuff for nearly everything, including electrical, for my new house. Picked out the 12-2 and 14-2 (Both w/ ground) wire and went to buy a pot load of outlets and switches. Being smart enough to read and not wanting to either fail an inspection or burn down the new house, I read the capacity ratings on the outlets. Parallel blades on the plugs – 15 amps. If I wanted 20 amp outlets, they had blades perpendicular to one another, or the “T” shaped blade on one side. Rex’s article shows dwgs/photos of parallel blade outlets in 20 amp circuits.
Someone pls explain. If you can’t (by code) put 14 gage wire on a 20 amp circuit, how can you put 15 amp outlets on it? Because you cannot get a 20 amp device w/ a parallel bladed plug?
Don’t worry – I know enough to get help on things like wiring. Have an electrician friend who helps/inspects/critiques me free. He’d rather I owe him than pay him, and he does, indeed, get his pound of flesh.
Thanks.
Don Reinhard
Replies
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Not an electrician here, but its kinda like this: you need 12 gauge wire for a 20a circuit cause if you run everything in the kitchen or bath you could get up to 20a. But you can use 15a receptacles cause there isn't any appliance that draws enough to overload em. You'd have to plug in your chop saw and little compressorboth in one receptacle and start em both, but that would trip the breaker cause it would be too much for the 12g wire and the 20a breaker. You can use 15a receptacles for the whole house......buy the $2 ones instead of the 39 centers and pigtail them instead of feeding through them I think the only time you need a 20a receptacle is when its the only receptacle on a 20a circuit. And use fiberglass boxes instead of those cheap blue ones, you'll be glad when you rock. My own take is: wire the whole house with 12g, and you don't really need ANY 20a breakers in the panel except to show the inspector you were paying attention to the kitchen and baths. Otherwise, I'd put in 15a breakers in those circuits and change to 20a if any problem with them tripping. More or less.
*Ok, now I've read several times here that I should not get the 39 cent receptacles, that I should pop for the 2 dollar ones, so... In making the circuit for the computer here, I bought the 2 dollar ones. Every single one of them broke as I tried to tighten the screw down over the wire. I dug out some old 39 centers, and they worked just fine. Hooey on the 2 buck receptacles !!!!!!!!!!!
*Allowing a receptacle rated for 15 amps on a circuit fused for 20 seems to be the exception that proves the rule. Code does permit it.I'm with lonecat, leave the 14 gauge wire at the store, 12 guage is my minumum wire guage.joe d
*Don,The Code allows 15A receptacles on a 20A circuit, AS LONG AS there are two or more receptacles on the circuit.That means on the laundry circuit (where you usually have a single recep on a 20A circuit), the inspector may ding you if you use a 15A recep. The thinking is that if you have an individual 20A branch circuit, you're likely to be plugging in loads that are greater than 15A. The recep has to be able to handle the current, so you need a 20A recep (which will accept the T-bladed 20A plug). In reality, most residential washing machines have 15A plugs.So why does Code allow 15A receps to be used on a 20A circuit, as long as there are two or more receps? Well, the assumption is that no single appliance or other load is going to be draw more than 15A. That's a pretty reasonable assumption; almost all appliances and tools are designed to draw 15A or less. Therefore you don't need a recep that can handle 20A. If you have, say, three 15A outlets each with a 12 amp load, on a 20A circuit, then your circuit breaker earns its money--it will open due to overload. In my example of a 36A total load, it may take a while for the breaker to trip, but it will happen.
*Don,Code will allow the use of a 15A duplex (when more than 1 are used)in a 20A circuit because the buss in the receptacle is rated for 20A. Only the part of the device that the plug comes in contact with is rated for 15A. As for the use of 12/2 and 20A circuits everywhere... We generally use 14/2 and 15A circuits on lighting because of the large number of joints or wire connections that have to be made in a switch box. The 14 ga. wire is easier to package and compressing it into the box puts less strain on both the device and the box. As to the more expensive devices, generally, the better grade (i.e,, spec. grade) will have a better composition for the face of the device, the mounting yoke will be stronger and the mounting point for the plate screws will be metal and grounded.
*By the way Don, the perpendicular blades are for appliances that HAVE to be plugged into a minimum 20A outlet. Just another way to help an end user avoid burning down your creation in case the breakers fail.
*Don, another DIYer here. I agree with above responses and will add: get big boxes, I like deep two gang boxes. With a two gang box there is more space in which to twist the darn stiff 12 gauge stuff and doesn't require as tight a bending radius. Also went two gang when upgrading old under powered home to eliminate those multi-outlet strips and "octopus" outlets. Heck, even behind the TV I have a cord for tv, vcr, tape rewinder, and since Xmas a fourth cord for DVD player. Any more gizmos and I'll be right back to a multi-outlet strip. Perhaps I should have put in multiple two gang boxes? And they talk about an energy (power) shortage!
*Say Bill, esthetics aside, do you perceive a built-in multi-outlet box as being somehow better than a multi-outlet strip (that usually have their own breakers in them) ? It's still all connected to just one cable behind the wall.
*Phill....I double up receptacles in office areas...countertops in kitchens and near tv areas...And yes it does clean things up tremendously...Why do you think we do it?...Just to make you ask dumb questions on the net?near the stream,ajyup phill...you got it buddy...
*That wasn't the question aj.
*Has anyone ever actually seen one of these fabled 20 amp plugs? I've seen plenty of the outlets, but never a plug with the perpendicular blades. Maybe that just proves the point that 20 amp appliances are rare at best...did
*Didit, yes I happen to have one of those plugs in my possesion, but then again I also have some nice 220 and 480 plugs with the curved blades around the perimeter of the plug and some that have a little tail so they twist in not to be pulled out and some real neat ones with pins and not blades although they are rated 480 3phase but anyway what was the original question?
*Sure, they have them in the electical section of our local HD. Don't see them in a home here; but, there's lots of office equipment that runs on 20amps, like copiers and printers; industrial floor polishers too.
*"Plug" connections are not as reliable as well-made pressure connections found in house wiring:--The electrical connection depends on spring pressure, and overheating can relieve the spring.--The plug and cord are sensitive to outside influences, such as being tugged and tripped over--For just those reasons the plug strips are labeled for temporary connections.
*Phil, Perhaps it is overkill to have the "equivalent" of multi outlet strip in the wall. However, the in wall stuff is 12 gauge solid copper wire while the multi outlet stuff will likely be stranded wire and a higher gauge (smaller wire). I also remember a local landmark which nearly burned down due to a faulty multi outlet strip which failed during the night. Something hits me wrong when a multi outlet gizmo can be purchased for $1 to $5. For comparison sake what are you paying for a 25' 12/3 extension cord?
*I only have two multi-outlet devices in "permanent" use in my house, both are APC surge protectors with their own breakers and run about $100 each. I have a couple of full 15amp (a lot of the "house-hold" duty devices are only 13amps, or less) heavy-duty strips that get occassional use; they were not cheap either. I can't remember the price of the 25' cords. The basis of the question was the fact that I've talked to several people now and then that have had a 2,3, or 4 gang box on the wall for a home office or entertainment centre without really gronking the fact that it was still one circuit - they could never understand why they got noise between devices and/or continually popped the breaker.
*Phill...You are full of it. Name enough devices in a home office to trip a 15 amp breaker!...And they all have to be drawing full amps at the same time with one person who has two arms...A computer, a light, a fax, an answer machine, a copy machine, and more...I have all that and more at my home and the outlets are all connected to more in other rooms. I never tripped a breaker. You really have to run multiple heat loads to trip outlets and or big motors under load. Three hair dryers and a toaster...And electric heater added to the above home office...You worry like my Grandma always did...She lived to be 98 so if worrying is the key to long life, then I guess I'll have to put up with you till my non worrying one is up.near the not so worried stream,aj
*I once had a 20 amp plug - on a room air conditioner. It had to be on its own sirkit.Thanks, guys, for all the good poop. It helped a lot. Even got a few great chuckles.Don Reinhard
*A desklamp, fax, computer, monitor, printer, and then plug in a kettle for a cup of tea while your output is printing and a fax is coming in: that's close to 3,000 watts - b POP !
*Phill:Read the lables on your office equipment!I read mine and find no where near the problem you seem to have.Epson printer .4 amps ( 48 watts)H-P Office jet fax/ printer 45 watts19" Mitsubishi Diamond Pro monitor 1.6 amps (192 watts)Home assembled computer with 250 watt power supplyTotal so far 535 wattsEven with a 1000 watt tea kettle, I'm only approaching the capacity of a 15 amp circuit. No where near tripping.Frank DuVal
*Tektronics printer: 650 watts, Russel kettle 1625 watts (you have a 1000 watt kettle ? really ? I have a little one-cup travelling kettle that's only 850, but a full-sized kettle with only 1000 watts ? Do you go out for lunch while you're waiting for it to boil ?). And please go back and read my post - it wasn't my problem or my office equipment.
*You can never have enough outlets. I like a double gang box at every potential night stand location. That gives two outlets and four plug spaces - lamp, electric blanket, clock radio, and telephone charger. Same at every TV and computer location and above the back splash in the kitchen. In our dream bathroom I wired up two gang boxes for me and she. Each is on a dedicated line. One GFI and one regular outlet. My wife has three different hair curlers and a blow dryer pluged up. On my side we have the night light, my blow dryer and her electric razor. Should have gone with a three gang.Steve
*Yeah, I've dealt with those - my uncle has a sailboat and the shore power cord is a twist-lock, and my previous employer made Shaw-Box and Budgit electric hoists that usually ran on 460/3/60. I liked the pneumatic powered hoists myself - gotta love something that pulls 500 cfm.did
*What is a tea kettle doing on your desk?....Yes Phill, morons can pop circuits....That's why we have the breakers...There for the morons.near the moron stream,aj
*Not everyone has room for a stove running on 110 like you do AJ.
*More moronic yak....I suppose I have to tell you that stove thread was a joke....I can't believe the answers that are given when electric yak threads start amongst the armchair experts and carpenters and Project Managers....Wow...Yup...wow.Near the Unionville Woodwright with a side degree in armchair electric,aj
*Electric armchairs? wow I though prison life was getting easy what with cable and all and now the death row gang has electric armchairs. incredible what will they think of next?
*AJ, cold winter got you a little grumpy?
*I actually get too much of a kick out of these goofy electric threads!...I laugh everytime I see a post!Chuckling near the stream,ajThe one thing I know,is most here know jack about electric...maybe it's the scarey, "Electricution" issues....!...He...He..
*I find that shocking to think you get a charge out of this yeah it is interesting to watch some of these. I usually just sit back in my armchair and watch folks kick around a million different answers. (actually as I may have mentioned I don't even own an armchair, but hey don't tell anyone when I butt into a carpentry question.) ;)
*Jack,You are right. I guess it is the same pleasure we get from watching that 'genius' coyote go to work on the road runner!
*When installing a 115V receptacle, what is the correct orientation?grounded receptacle: ground up or down?two prong for replacement: hot on the left or right?how about if the receptacle is horizontal?
*Dear EC:I know you are asking this as a troll, but there have been some real discussions about this very question in electrical trade journals. This discussion was at its peak shortly after OSHA regulations began to come into play. The recommendation was that the ground should be at the top, on the justification that if something like a sheet of metal slips down and the plug is loose, it will hit the ground first, and pop the GFCI or Breaker.Similarly, the neutral (White) connection on horizontal installations should be on the top.
*Electro....yes....yes....most clients prefer to see the face smile....grasshopper....but then...thee inspector sometimes he not smile when he is of the knowledge that if one is to step on the cord of a plug...the ground will not break off if it is in a plug with no face...see...grasshopper...it is for you to decide now....go with the knowledge....you will understand when you are able to let go...near the stream with the face in the east and the west...aj
*John D: Great! But, I have NEVER seen an outlet w/ the ground on top, anywhere, and I have lived a BUNCH of places since three pronged outlets became the normLet me give you a new one - based on my sampling, about 10% of the GFCI outlets in motel bathrooms do not function. This includes outlets that function properly when the "Test" button is pressed. I discovered this by accident when I jokingly plugged a hair dryer into one that was tripped and the dryer worked. I then performed that simple test in every motel room I stayed in. 10% failure rate. Could it be that the electreician wiring it up wired it backwards?Don Reinhard
*I put a couple of them upside down like that cause the 99 code "suggests" it, but couldn't stand it and flipped em back over.
*Since most electric cords will bend downward, it seems that having two prongs inserted at the top would minimize the tendency for the cord to pull the plug out and down away from the wall exposing the prongs. However, I suppose an exposed grounding prong wouldn't matter much anyhow. I just like the smiley face you see when the ground lug is on the bottom.PS: I'm not an electrician. Or an engineer.
*JohnD and others:I'm not trying to be a troll about this. The question came up when a friend was painting the rooms in his house and realized that most of the receptacles were installed with the ground up. He decided to switch them all so that the ground was down, presumably because that's the way the electricians do it, whether in residential or commercial work.AdirondackJack suggested that customers like to see the face smile when the receptacle is installed with the ground down; however, it doesn't appear to be smiling. The expression is more like "Oh NO!"I checked some spec grade receptacles that I purchased recently and noticed that to read the printed information, one has to hold it with the ground up. Presumably, the manufacturer intended it to be installed this way. On GFCI receptacles, the TEST and RESET buttons are labeled with the text printed both ways. The drawings in Rex Cauldwell's article show the ground up.While searching USENET, I came across a posting that cited ANSI/IEEE Standard 602-1986, "Recommended Practice for Electric Systems in Health Care Facilities" (the "White Book"). According to the posting, section 4.2.2 says "Parallel blade devices should be mounted ground pin or neutral blade up." This sounds like a must-read, but I haven't been to the library yet.Is this covered in the NEC? Do they teach this in trade school? Does Rex Cauldwell cover this in his books? Can JoJo L. help us out?Thanks.
*The original post for all this discussion implies that only "T" shaped recepticles are available with 20 amp rating. Not so - I have a Pass & Seymour 20 Amp recepticle with me that accepts standard 110 volt male plug tips andd the left tip also has a slot to accept the special "T" tip plugs. The Pass & Seymour duplex recepticle is model CR20-I, rated at 20 amps, 125 volts, commercial grade. Problem solved!
*FWIW Receptacles with ground prong top became pretty standard in these parts (NJ) about 5 years ago. You rarely see any new construction done any other way.
*Electro man....You are making a mountain out of a mole hill....The idea is that ground up is better and is now spec'ed that way more and more commercially....Residentially, we try to please the customer. My brother in law was so upset when I helped him for free and placed them with out the face that he had an electrician switch them to "proper." Proper to him is what he has seen for years....No teaching old dogs new tricks ya know...So I just give them a choice and hope I don't lose the job these days.near the stream,aj
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This is for the electricians out there. I was just reading Rex Cauldwell's article on "ten Common Wiring Problems" in issue 136, Jan 2001. Yesterday, in response to the Home De Pot 10% off sale on everything in the store, I was buying a bunch of stuff for nearly everything, including electrical, for my new house. Picked out the 12-2 and 14-2 (Both w/ ground) wire and went to buy a pot load of outlets and switches. Being smart enough to read and not wanting to either fail an inspection or burn down the new house, I read the capacity ratings on the outlets. Parallel blades on the plugs - 15 amps. If I wanted 20 amp outlets, they had blades perpendicular to one another, or the "T" shaped blade on one side. Rex's article shows dwgs/photos of parallel blade outlets in 20 amp circuits.
Someone pls explain. If you can't (by code) put 14 gage wire on a 20 amp circuit, how can you put 15 amp outlets on it? Because you cannot get a 20 amp device w/ a parallel bladed plug?
Don't worry - I know enough to get help on things like wiring. Have an electrician friend who helps/inspects/critiques me free. He'd rather I owe him than pay him, and he does, indeed, get his pound of flesh.
Thanks.
Don Reinhard