What would be wrong with the idea of wiring a house will 20 amp circuits vs 15 amp.
I live in a home build in the 70’s, and periodically I run a space heat (1500 watt) or a 15 amp air compressor on an outdoor outlet, and the breakers don’t like it.
Why not just build using 12 gauge wire and 20 amp circuits, on the outlet circuits, lighting circuits could be 15 unless you mix outlets and outlets on the same circuit.
Bad idea?
Replies
Nothing wrong with doing what you're suggesting. Wiring my own house, however, I found it much easier to work with 14-2 than 12-2. It really comes down to planning; certainly if you know you're going to be using some heavier equipment, you want to plan that way--and even dedicate circuits on their own for specific needs (refridge, microwave, computers, etc). But, say in a garage where you would use the air compressor, you're going to be wiring 12-2 anyway due to GFI concerns.
In my situation I couldn't really see putting in 12-2 for say living room, family room, places like that; although I did wire that way by mistake!!! But in bedrooms I went with all 14-2 wire except where I might have had a dedicated circuit. The lights I tended to put on a separate circuit (15a), with the odd outlet here and there, and put outlets on their own 15 amp circuit using 14-2.
Again, it really comes down to planning and your needs. Working with 12-2 is a little tougher, and if you have the gumption to do it, you might as well put 12-2 throughout, but it's not critical to the complete success of a wiring job.
Maybe in kitchen
I've said this in previous threads: I'd use 12-2 everywhere. I often add equipment in a house such as bathroom fan/heaters, whole house fans, powered roof vents, the odd receptacle, etc. It helps to have 12 gauge wire available. You never have to worry about whether the wire is up to snuff. That's not to say that the circuit can't be overloaded, though.
Tim, then do you put those 12 gauge on 20 amp breakers or just use the larger gauge?
Do you need special outlets rated for 20 amps?
JR, my understanding is that you only need the "special" outlet (the one with the little extra slit and costing about ten times more than a standard outlet) rated 20 amp if that is the only outlet on the circuit. For instance; I put in a separate circuit just for an iron in the laundry area. Here, there is only one outlet and I put in the 20 amp outlet/receptacle.
Again, as I understand it, on a normal 20 amp circuit i.e. not dedicated to one outlet/receptacle, you can then use the standard 15 amp outlet/receptacles if there is more than one.
Got it! Thanks!
The other day I was looking at receptacles for sale and they said something like "15 amp rated only, which started me thinking about whether you needed a different outlet if you put it on a 20 amp circuit.
Will wait for other responses.
I wired my house with 12 gauge -- No problem, one happy inspector. Two caveats though. Be sure to use large enough wire nuts, and use the most voluminous boxes you can find to avoid cable fill violations.Andy Engel, The Former Accidental Moderator
One thing to consider here is voltage drop. More significant than most folks expect.
Depending upon the runs, you may not actually be able to draw 15 amps through 14 gauge wiring without unacceptable voltage drop. This is yet another reason to go 'overspec'.
If you really need 15-20 amps for big consumer like a compressor (or whatever), you may need to goto 10 gauge, and an outlet rated for 10 gauge conductors. Or a subpanel... Voltage drop kills powertools.
Don't forget to take any potential extension cord into account as well when calculating for voltage drop. 12 gauge to a far flung outlet with a 100ft extension cord is probably not even going to be good for 15 amps.
Something to think about.
A few selected circuits require 20 amp circuits, 2 kitchen small appliance circuits, clothes washer, bathroom recptacles, and any dedicated circuit for an appliance that is too big for a 15 amp circuit.
Other than that you can have any combination of 15 and 20 amp circuits.
However, a few locals have modified the code (or the inspector makes up their own rules). I have heard of several places that will only allow 15 amp circuits for lighting. And at least one other that requires all circuits to be 20 amp. But both of these not NEC requirements.
15 amp rated receptacles are the same cost for 20 amp receptacles of the SAME QUALITY. The 39 cent, 10 for $3.30 are only available in 15 amp versions. The spec grades and commerical grades ($2-4, each) cost the same for 15 or 20 amp recptacles.
But all recptacles are rated for 20 amp feed through.
Bill, thanks for all that info.
Great information, Thanks.
Nothing at all wrong with going all #12 / 20 Amp. I did that on my parents' house, and will do it again on mine. I am considering going with #14 for a dedicated smoke detector circuit, just to make it stand out. I don't see all that big a difference in difficulty of working with #12, and it's so much easier and cheaper to build in the extra capacity now rather than later.
-- J.S.
I wired whole house with 12 because I bought a 1000 ft roll and did not want a half roll of 14 and half roll of 12 laying around . But its code for 14 on lights and 12 on plugs. I just did 12(20 amp) everything
" I am considering going with #14 for a dedicated smoke detector circuit, just to make it stand out. "
A while back someone here suggested putting the smoke detectors on a circuit with some frequently used lights, so it would be painfully obvious if the breaker was tripped or turned off. (I don't remember who it was)
Just thought it was a good idea, and worth bringing up again.If you don't care where you are, you're not lost.
"A while back someone here suggested putting the smoke detectors on a circuit with some frequently used lights, so it would be painfully obvious if the breaker was tripped or turned off. (I don't remember who it was)"
That is a common recomendation. You only need one or two lights. For example a hall or stairs.
Nothing "wrong" with the practice--you are exceeding code, which is not bad.
Pro electricians use the different sizes as a cost control measure more than anything else. Running 14 for switch legs & certain lighting circuits saves the business from buying that much more #12 cable. The same goes for 20amp versus 15 amp CBs. The cost difference is small--unless you are buying 1000 per year.
Code (is supposed to) represent the bottom threshold for safety. In other words, less than "this much" might be a risk. Going beyond that is your perogative, your espense, too. I like making each room its own circuit (the average teenager's room will justify that . . . ) But that's a design decision you have to make up front. I have no problem with 14 travelers for switches, and lights only circuits.
The only thing you may run into is that 20 duplex outlets are required to be distinctive--this means you may run into some grief on the "decor" side of things. I'm not 100% up on NEC, but there may be ramification on having a 15amp DPCV on a 20 amp circuit. May not be, I;m guessing that someone who does know will pipe up here.
Nothing wrong with running 12/2 and having 20A breakers. On some of those longer McMansions I have to run #12 on 15A circuits to correct for voltage drop accociated with long wiring runs. As someone else pointed out, good call, watch the box fill.
If breakers are tripping I usually either break up circuits, adding receptacles to the less used circuit, add circuits to make the scope of each circuit smaller, or install dedicated circuits where larger point loads, like the space heater or compressor, are anticipated to be plugged in.
While I wouldn't use any wiring smaller than 14 gauge for house wiring, it wouldn't be code or kosher, I have found that it, the 14 ga wiring, is often overkill for many areas. Often bedrooms have only a single lamp, 1A at the outside, and a clock radio, perhaps .25A, are the only loads. Often I go to homes with a 400A service and the whole family home and find that they are using only 30A.
Tools, as you have found, blowdriers, and space heaters are usually the loads that trip breakers. Lighting usually isn't a problem. You can run 30 - 60w bulbs on a single 15A circuit and 30 bulbs will light a house. Most people can get along quite well with only four or five of these.
Lots of good ideas on his subject. As for expenses of 14 gauge vs. 12 gauge wire - that is such a trivial matter that I factor into the construction specs. If the contractor or his subs nickle and dime it, they remove it and replace it with what I spec'd. The trades are so full of poor craftsmanship and know-it-all amateurs anymore that I honestly don't trust a roll of 14 gauge on a job site. I just have them run all #12 wire and spec the circuits to be properly divided. I worked in pre-fab home design and construction and produce working "shop" drawings and instructions so even the most uneducated "immigrant" laborer could wire the house properly. Once a qualified electrician works for me even he can leave his brain at home. I even get discounted bids because they don't have over-supervise their own crews. All the breakers are still 15 amp unless for very specific load points. I just design smaller circuit branches for specific rooms or areas of a house. For a heavy work shop area like a garage I do spec 10 gauge wire, 20 amp receptacles and 20 amp breakers. Outside circuits are also spec'd with #10, thus providing less resistance to the outlet while people plug in hundreds of feet of extension cords for Christmas lights and such.
One add-on to using the #14 wire for smoke detectors. I have them spray paint a 250' roll for just such a purpose. This is just a little thoughtfulness for the next guy down the road that wants to do any additional work. I once came upon an older house that someone used the wire from the alarms for an additional outlet. In the process they never thought that they had disconnected the smoke detectors on the second floor bedrooms. Very bad idea!
PS: Get your hands an UGLY Electricians Handbook. The info in there is priceless and can answer any questions you could possibly have about wiring a home. It's the bible of electricity.
How would you confuse a #14 smoke circuit with an outlet circuit? Around here at least, it has to be 14-3 because all AC smokes have to be wired so all sound if any one trips. I usually ignore any -3 circuits since they're either smokes or more often for 3-way switches and can be wired strange. Occasionally you see a double feed, but not too often. I do like the idea of painting the wire. I'll do that next time
> How would you confuse a #14 smoke circuit with an outlet circuit? Around here at least, it has to be 14-3 ....
You're thinking in terms of romex, which most people use. But in my case, I'll be using EMT. Good point about putting one important light on that circuit, I'll see if there's a good way to do that.
-- J.S.
Thanks everybody for all the great thoughts on this topic! It is great to have so many varied opinions and ideas.
"I do like the idea of painting the wire. I'll do that next time"
In VA, MD, and PA, the Romex is already color coded.
Orange: 10ga.
Yellow: 12ga.
White: 14 ga.
Is this just an east coast thing?
Jon Blakemore
I could be wrong, but my understanding is that the color code will be national. It makes it easier for the inspectors to see if you do something like run a 12 into a box and a 14 out. I like the color code. The nasty new code stuff that's coming down is arc-faulting any circuit that runs into or through a bedroom. They're expensive and don't work.
Whoa,
Some of the Arc Faults do work. Just don't lump the bargain basement devices with the performers. Try a Sqd QO breaker with arc fault . Breakers are made to different quality standards. Same as a Homeline vs a QO.
The market will adjust when it is required. Right now the R&D costs are ammortized in the new product. In the marketing world it is called "skimming the cream". From CD to DVD players to whatever is the new hot technological product all firms do this. If you are the smarty pants first on the block kind of guy you get to pay for your one-up-man-ship. If you are really interested, try graphing the $/Mghz ratio on CPU's.
Thankfully the NEC hasn't adopted the Arc Faults yet. When they do the market will drop the price. Til then You should get your share of the cream if you are the guy providing it to a customer.
PS on the color code. HD already has the Romex prepainted / colored. BX is already painted for Hospital & institutional use. It's a rainbow of colors out there.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
"Some of the Arc Faults do work. Just don't lump the bargain basement devices with the performers. Try a Sqd QO breaker with arc fault . Breakers are made to different quality standards. Same as a Homeline vs a QO."
First they should all pass the same spec, abit a miniumum one.
But it depends on how you define WORK. There are series arc faults and parallel arc faults. The AFCI are designed to only detect one type. Forgot which one it is, but it only work on certain types faults of certain magnitudes.
"Thankfully the NEC hasn't adopted the Arc Faults yet."
Actually the 98 code did require them starting in Jan of 2001 (or was it 2002). And the 2002 code has tighted the the requirement to include all circuits, not just receptacles.
However a number of AHJ have excluded that section.
http://ecatalog.squared.com/pubs/Circuit%20Protection/Miniature%20Circuit%20Breakers/Arc%20Fault%20Circuit%20Interrupters%20(AFCI)/QO/0760DB0201R1102.pdf
This is A pdF File from Square D that covers the Arc fault in a Q&A format. 8 Pages total. If that doesn't work for you, you can go to the SQD website and search out Arc Fault. It is a long road but it leads here.
I saw a design magazine article on the way but you must know that most of those endorsements are influenced by the advertising dollars put twords the magazine. Obviously none will back ..say "steroids as a safe muscle builder" but they will lean tword the pile of money.
I prefer the mfgr's take, at least you know who's financially responsible & liable.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
"This is A pdF File from Square D that covers the Arc fault in a Q&A format. 8 Pages total. If that doesn't work for you, you can go to the SQD website and search out Arc Fault. It is a long road but it leads here"
And it appears to basically agree with what I was saying.
"I saw a design magazine article on the way but you must know that most of those endorsements are influenced by the advertising dollars put twords the magazine. Obviously none will back ..say "steroids as a safe muscle builder" but they will lean tword the pile of money.
I prefer the mfgr's take, at least you know who's financially responsible & liable."
I don't know what you are refering to here.
My comments where about the standards for this device, in this case UL 1699, not the manufacturers or a magazine article say if they work or not.
""I prefer the mfgr's take, at least you know who's financially responsible & liable."
I don't know what you are refering to here. ""
Well, What I'm saying is that a manufacturer has a legal staff that works in conjunction with the design engineers to proofread all of the assertions in the written copy. Magazines I don't think have the same level of liability (it would be shared liability for any errors or omissions) or at least magazine writers don't have as deep of a pocket to protect.
My point in a nutshell is:
If someone has something to lose they tend to be pretty careful about what they say.Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
"Well, What I'm saying is that a manufacturer has a legal staff that works in conjunction with the design engineers to proofread all of the assertions in the written copy. Magazines I don't think have the same level of liability (it would be shared liability for any errors or omissions) or at least magazine writers don't have as deep of a pocket to protect."
I will accept that.
But what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?
Or what does it have to do with the discussion at hand or any of it's derivitives.
Magazines have first amendment protection that manufacturers of a product such as AFCIs don't. That is, the manufacturer's literature is in service to their primary product, say an AFCI, so there's the implied warranty of merchantability at the very least. Magazines and other media mainly have to avoid copyright infringement and lible. They can be wrong about almost anything else with little fear of liability. Journalistic ethics (Yes, I believe most journalists are ethical people -- Jason Blair wouldn't have been news if he hadn't been the exception) are what make or break any publication's accuracy and reputation. To the best of my knowledge, there has only been one case in the US where a magazine was held liable for non-lible/non-copyright-infringement damages caused by something they printed. That was in a case where Soldier of Fortune published an ad for a hit man. A client found him through the magazine and he carried out the contract, killing someone for money. The heirs of the victim sued Soldier of Fortune and won.Andy Engel, The Former Accidental Moderator
Well put.
Jack of all trades and master of none - you got a problem with that?
I just saw color coded romex for the first time here in Seattle.Smile. It could be worse. You could be me working for you.
What about placing a junction box in the middle of a run to branch off to other receptacles instead of jumping from each receptacle box to another. I know that code requires every junction box to be accessible. Is there any drawbacks to using them in a run?
Thanks,
The Sicilian
Sicilian, I suppose you could do it, but why? I mean when you think about it, each receptacle box is a mini-junction box. So now you want a "bigger" junction that you have to keep separate access to? Would you do this "daisy wheel" type of wiring to save money on cable? If you're thinking of junction boxes, think bigger and broader; install a subpanel.
I remember someone recommending that hook up of smoke/fire alarms with lighting too. That's the way I wired my place, but think I might have done it more out of brevity than anything else; the draw on smoke alarms is so minimal, it's easy to put on a light circuit, and the fact that the lights and alarms are tied together is probably a good one.
I guess I'm just thinking that if you wanted to add on an additional receptacle outlet somewhere in the future it can be easier to tap into that junction box rather than pull from an existing receptacle box. That is of course if access is available for running that line. It has nothing to do with saving $ on cable. I suppose too that it can also be more convenient to pull from the panel which in this case is located in a front hall to the back of the house where the kitchen is located to a junction box and send out some runs to a various locations in the room.
A subpanel would work but it seems like a lot of extra work to accomplish the same thing.
Color coding cable should be mandatory not just a great idea. Romex should be leading on this not waiting for state code requirements.
The Sicilian
re - I'm just thinking that if you wanted to add on an additional receptacle outlet somewhere in the future it can be easier to tap into that junction box rather than pull from an existing receptacle box.
----
That is the reasoning behind my recent 200-amp upgrade to the main floor of a house.
Ran several junction boxes into the attic from which various outlet branches were tapped, all on 12-2 and 20-amp breakers.
Maybe I should have run 10 gauge from the panel to each junction box.
Anyway, I divided up the circuits (for outlets only) so there is enough capacity to tap additional outlets from each junction box if the need ever arises.
Sicilian, I was being a bit sarcastic about the subpanel. My point was though, why have a dang junction box if you want to add a receptacle? How could it be easier to tap into a junction box as opposed to a receptacle? I mean it all depends on where you want that extra receptacle. My advice, and what I did, was overplan for receptacles, put in more than you think you will need.
Look at 4Lorn's post too. Listen to the professionals. I don't know that they "live" every floorplan, but they sure have seen a heck of a lot of electrical usages per many floorplans. That's why I ended up doing my own electrical (with professional help); I didn't have the perfect plan and to stand there and get an electrician to add/change and do this or that just was going to be a clusterfluck. So I only have myself to blame for some screw ups down the pike.
That brings me to this question, in a laundry room I have a 20A dedicated circuit to a GFI receptacle. Both the washer and dryer are plugged into it. The dryer is a gas dryer. Now I want to add another receptacle to to the box (it is a two gang ) and I want to put a regular commercial receptacle alongside the GFI and of course wire it off the load side which is supposed to give it GFI protection also.
Is this legal or do you have to have two GFI receptacles wired in that duplex box side by side? Supposedly all receptacles wired downstream of this GFI are protected if wired properly.
Thanks,
The Sicilian
Sicilian, I'm not trying to play semantics or nomenclature, but you wrote:
"...in a laundry room I have a 20A dedicated circuit to a GFI receptacle."
I think you mean you have a 20A circuit dedicated to a washer and dryer, which incidentally, I don't believe needs to be GFCI protected. Now you want to add another receptacle in a double-gang box?
I'm not an electrician, but, and would want to know what the heck you plan to run off this circuit, regardless of whether or not you have two outlets/receptacles next to each other in a double gang-box that may or may not need to be GFCI protected.
Without going through some notes, I think you have to have all garage outlets/receptacles GFCI protected, unless they are for a dedicated purpose i.e. washer and dryer where the appliance is not going to be likely moved.
My concern would be is that you have dedicated circuit for sspecific purpose(s) and you want to know if you can "stretch" that usage for some other reasons?
Sicilian,
NEC 210.11(C)(2). " ...at least one additional 20-ampere branch circuit shall be provided to supply the laundry receptacle outlet(s) required by 210.52(F).This circuit shall have no other outlets."
Barry
That is one of those sections that is often debated.
As I read it I have any any number of receptacles on that circuit. The only limitation is that they all be in the laundry room.
As I understood the original question, the guy wanted to make the box over the washer and dryer a four holer instead of a two holer. Whether to consider that to be one outlet is probably up to the individual inspector. My guess is that most inspectors here would be ok with the four holer. If not, there's always cube taps.... What else would someone want to plug in there? Perhaps a portable TV or boom box for entertainment while doing laundry?
-- J.S.
What else would someone want to plug in there?
Iron; fan in the summer; charger cordless stuff--then there's the crazy stuff I've seen spaghetti-corded off the washer outlet . . . Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Does that code apply for gas dryers or is that meant for electric only appliances? Does no other outlets mean outside of the laundry room or just for that one receptacle?
The Sicilian
Sicilian,
As you can see from the posts of Bill H. and xJohn, for some there's a little bit of wiggle room in this Code section.I can only tell you what I think and what's enforced in my area.Where I live the inspector requires a duplex outlet on its own 20 amp circuit just for the laundry equipment.This usually takes care of the washing machine and the gas dryer.If you have an electric dryer obviously that's another 2 pole circuit.The lighting and other receptacles for ironing,etc.go on another circuit with other rooms.I suppose I agree with this interpretation because if you look at the requirement for basement receptacles,they require at least one other receptacle outlet in the basement "... in addition to any receptacle outlets for laundry equipment." Seems to me they want the washer/dryer separated from everything else.
You know what though ? I agree with John that this isn't a big safety issue.If your electrical inspector was involved he may or may not agree,but if you really need another outlet and the box and adjacent GFCI lend themselves to an easy install,I wouldn't sweat it.
Barry
Good point, what I did was wire a 20A circuit to the laundry room to a two gang box currently with one GFCI receptacle. I am going to add a second receptacle to that same box and was wondering if I add a that second receptacle can it be a regular commercial style receptacle wired on the downstream side of the GFCI or do I need to have a second GFCI in the box.
It is my understanding that all receptacles wired downstream of a GFCI will also be protected by that source GFCI. It is not going to be inspected so I am putting one in anyways but wanted to know if I'll still have GFCI protection without having to purchase another GFCI for the box.
The Sicilian
Yes you can put the 2nd receptacle downstream from the first one.
BTW, unless this is in an unfinished basement or a garage are there is no need for a GFCI.
Specially not for the washer and dryer as there are 3 prong grounded equipmented and they not not likely to be dropped into a sink.
I do have a slop sink next to the washer and while you always try to be careful others may not.
So a regular receptacle will inherit the same protections of GFI if it is wired correctly downstream of the GFI? Or in my case in the same box.
The Sicilian
Sicilian,
Yes a regular receptacle wired on the load side of a GFCI receptacle will also be protected.Make sure you can find a cover plate with one GFCI and a one regular receptacle first.You might have to use a Decora(rectangular) style receptacle and a two gang GFCI plate.
Barry
Sorry, I did not see your post before I sent my last message.
Thanks,
The Sicilian
been kinda follwing this thread.
not an electrician, but seem to remember something about the number of circuits and their sizes and the panel size.
like how many 20 amp circuits can u have on a 100 amp panel?bobl Volo, non valeo
Pannels are limited to 42 max circuit by the NEC. But many pannels are limited to a smaller number.
You size a pannel (and service) by the demaind, but by counting the number and size of the breakers.
The NEC has a forumla for doing this. There is a link to it on FHB main page.
Basially you add up 20 amps for the two kitchen circuits and each bathroom recpt circuit. Then for other dedicated circuits you use the ACTUAL load. This goes for things like driers, AC, and dishwashers and refigerators if they are on there own circuit. A special table is used for electric stoves. For all other lighting and recptacles a sq footage factor is used.
Bill, so if you have a 200 amp panel the some total of all breakers can exceed that figure. Correct?
That is correct JR; the reasoning being, I think, is that you can't possibly (although I'm sure anything is "possible") have every single appliance, outlet, light, etc., running or on.
The formulation is pretty easy to calc. Going through that process also gives you a better appreciation of what you got coming ahead of you.
GREAT tips on outdoor outlets and garages! 10 gauge!
> On some of those longer McMansions I have to run #12 on 15A circuits to correct for voltage drop accociated with long wiring runs.
In that case, it might be better to go with a feeder and sub panel for the far wing of the building. It solves the voltage drop problem, and saves you the long walk in the dark when you trip a breaker from the far end of one of those long runs.
-- J.S.
Good point about having a sub panel. Unfortunately some HOs and builders refuse to allow the wall space necessary for a sub. I have, on occasion, talked myself blue explaining that they can be located unobtrusively and can often save money on the wiring job only to be told it would interfere with the aesthetics and flow of the design. You would have thought I had suggested that the panel be stood up in the middle of the living room and painted red not tucked in behind the office door. No dice. No joy.
When the calculations dictate, voltage drop, the oversized wire comes out and the HO pays through he nose. Their house so their choice. I just wire them the best I can given the situation I'm handed. My mantra becomes: "I love my job. I am well paid." Repeat as needed. "It's just a job" becomes the subtext. Just because I have trained and do this for a living why should the HO listen? Sometimes I'm tempted to tell my boss to hire in a few subcontracted drunks while I go fishing. At least one, with a particularly boneheaded HO and builder, we did just that.
When I'm lead I give the HOs a standard speech on adding extra outlets, sub panels, adding chases and conduits to locations likely to get additions or upgrades. Some HOs and builders listen, most of these later tell me that the slight increase in cost was well worth it, others reject the advice. Not a few of these have come back after completion for things that were suggested. Cheap during construction. Most people are shocked when they get the estimate for putting them in later. What was a $10 add on is now $200. Pay me now or pay me later. I'm sure you have been there.
Seems a lot of people are planning to go oversized on the cables. Unless really necessary I avoid this. IMHO, in most cases 14 and 12 are fine. Larger wire sizes sound better but this is largely an illusion. In most cases it is unneeded. Better to spend money where it will do some good. Even when voltage drop is an issue I usually just make the home run oversized leaving the rest of the circuit the normal gauge. Makes the calculations a bit more complicated but it also makes box fill a lot less of an issue.
12 gage is harder to work with, especially in a 4 gang box full of three way switches.
Most importaintly is that the main difference is when the breaker will trip. Imagine your bathroom vent fan or attic fan locking up or your vacume cleaner frying. 20 amps is 5 amps more dangerous than 15. However there are times when 20 A is good like the kitchen, bathroom, and if you have high powered audio/video stuff.
MIke
I wish builders were required to put in 20 amp service to the outside outlets. I sure get tired of walking to the garage to fix the tripped breaker everytime the air compressor kicks on when we build decks..
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
I often recommend that if the HOs use any space, garage or out building, as a shop, or were planning in the future to that they allow me to install a 60A, perhaps a bit larger if they are going whole hog, subpanel at the location. This assumes, as with many smaller homes, that the panel is not in the garage already. Makes nuisance trips and poor voltage under load a non-issue.
Having an electrician run a dedicated 20A circuit would be another approach. A 60A subpanel wouldn't be too much more expensive. Access and the ease of getting into your existing panel will be the determinates of how difficult and costly this will be. Having a panel with a few open spaces and some reserve capacity is also fairly important.
Of course this won't help you much. On to your problem. One plan that works is to get a friendly electrician to rig a 30A drier plug, four wire, rigged up on a #8 four wire cord about 100' long. Longer if needed. The other end gets a small four circuit panel with breakers or a couple of GFI receptacles. You could rig any combination of 120 or 240 v receptacles up to 30A and use GFI receptacles or breakers depending on your needs. This gets set smack in the middle of the construction.
Get him/her to make a short, about three feet, cord with a four-wire receptacle on one end and and a three wire cord cap on the other to handle older houses with older three-wire drier receptacles. Rig a 10', #10 ground and a ring terminal to handle grounding. Hook this into ant good ground. The center screw of a normal duplex receptacle usually works well.
When you get to the site plug into the drier receptacle and make up the ground connection if your using the three wire adapter. This is strictly temporary power so unplug when you go home for the night. I have rigged a couple of these or similar and have found the carpenters love them. Local inspectors don't mind if it is done well, under observation and disconnected when work stops.
Sounds like a great idea 4lorn1, but how do I kick the home owner out and tell them they'll just have to wear dirty clothes for a month?.............hehehee
I was just wondering how much more it would cost the builder to run a 20 amp service to the outside wall?
On our last job (Brand new house)we blew the breaker that runs his computer using an outlet in his crawl space. Now that is bad news.......
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
Edited 11/6/2003 6:33:47 PM ET by Pro-Dek
Pro-Dek, I didn't really consider that in my wiring; just wired the outside outlets (granted, on different circuits) to 15A bedroom outlet circuits and/or lighting circuits. All the while I was thinking that would be more than enough protection for any outdoor landscape lighting I may need down the road.
Tell ya what, you can use my 20A dedicated circuits for the computer, laundry iron, microwave, etc....and if it rains, we'll just do our best to keep the window closed as possible with the extension cord hanging out. <g>
You bring up a point about electrical panel locations.
In homes with crawlspaces (no basement to place panel in) where do people place their panels? The guarge is a logicall place, but may not be very central in a large home thus forcing long end runs.
where do people place their panels
Not just P&B, but slab on grade, too. Usually closest to the service drop (and/or the garage). In the town abutting mine, the fire restrictions are tight enough on new construction, that it is not uncommon to see the panel on the outside of the house. That's also a combination of a lack of design, and dirt-cheap spec building, too, in all fairness. (Always thought that would be a bad situation if you had annoyed your neighbors . . . )
And, length of run gets to be a problem. Usually later, not sooner. Panel near garage usually is also near laundry room & kitchen, so the heaviest loads are closer to the panel--but that is a generalization.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I thought a panel in a closet was against code in most places. I know it was against code 20 years ago in Idaho.
Coorect, no closets. Not for a long time.
But, in the next jurisdiction over, no interior garage walls shared by the house, either. That's so the wall meets the new 1 hour rating as much as anything else. But, I've also seen permit rejections for having the panel in a garage behind only opener-operated overhead doors. The stated reason was for FD access.
It's a tricky question, no matter what the location. Personally, I'm probably going to wind up with a panel outside a bedroom window, if only to simplify the service drop. Will have to see.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
On the outside of a house for anyone to walk up and flip you off, and I don't mean the middle finger althought I suppose they could use that one?
On the outside of a house for anyone to walk up and flip you off
Correct. Usually in the back of the house, with a 3" overhang for weather protection, so you can be standing in a puddle during the electrical storm with one had holding the cover ope, the other holding the flashlight, and the third to flip the breaker . . .
Entire subdivisions, no less, 5 & 6 house the acre "starter" houses cookie-cuttered down entire blocks. With u/g service to the exposed panel, no less (and, far too usually, only the one 8' grounding rod right underneath). No problem with tripping the breaker on the outside outels either, usually none present.
Had to edit in this: The duplexes around here never have the panel inside. Sometimes the panels are side by side on the shared back patio. Maybe that's an incentive to get along with your ^#*&$^ neighbors <grin>
Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
Edited 10/31/2003 2:47:34 PM ET by CapnMac
> it is not uncommon to see the panel on the outside of the house.
That's certainly the case in Southern CA, panels on the outside all over the place. Lovely idea, going out in the rain at night in the dark to flip a breaker.....
My plan has the downstairs panel in the laundry room and the upstairs panel in a central hallway, hidden behind a door that looks just like a closet door, but covers a space 6" deep in which the panel and the various lighting timers are to go.
-- J.S.
Garage, utility rooms, laundry rooms, den hidden behind a picture, or any room, excluding the bathrooms and closets, the builder and HO allows behind the door. The door covers the box when it is open and keep people from placing furniture, shelves or junk in front of the breaker box. This helps greatly with future accessibility.
Another trick, if the builder and carpenters will go along, is to arrange removable panels above and below the breaker box. On one job, it was in a laundry room and behind the door, the panels above , below and a hinged door over the panel were veneer plywood stained and finished, installed with brass screws and bevel washers. It looked good, HO commented that is should have been out in the hall so the fine woodworking could be more easily admired, and made adding circuits a breeze.The carpenter outdid himself. Made some of the furniture look shabby in comparison.
Air compresssor!!!! Exactly, the probably that spured me to ask this question!!!
I suppose you have a point on the 15 vs 20.
An answer probably lies in thinking very hard about which circuits might be used for a heavey load, like a space heater, and beefing up those lines.
Modern electric use is decreasing, not increasing. A bedroom in new construction properly insulated and heated requires miliamps of power... a Flat TV, laptop, stereo, some LED lights, a phone charger. Even a hair dryer will not exceed a 15 amp circuit.