Hey all,
OK, I am starting to do my year end books and I made money this year but not as much as I wanted.
So what is everyone’s plan for 2010? Its only like 30+ days away!
I am usually the type to say I will wait and see what happens but I really want to MAKE something happen in 2010. I know we don’t talk exact amounts here but I want to clear $50k next year.
I don’t think thats being greedy or too optimistic but I WANT to make that much. So…how do I make it happen?
Thoughts? Ideas?
And I know some smart
like Frammer, Blue, Dinosaur&
#160;or Piffin is going to say “sell a kidney”…but what can I REALLY do to make that happen?
Replies
Ask Seeyou what he told one of his subs that HOCKED Seeyou's ladder for $$$. The guy said he was broke.
Just ask him. LOL
My plan is go with the flow, don't bite off more than I can chew, and have no expectations of great change from the last 2-3 yrs. It ain't gonna get much better till the end of 2011...I just know it.
I've trimmed back on landline fone, by getting google voice for long distance and a better cell fone, for long distance ( most family, well, most any call from here, is LD) and other trimmingg back things so that I am cutting the "Fixed" costs as thin as possible, and haolding back on "variable costs" like purchases of tools and even materials, I just used cedar trees for porch posts at MY house, log home so it flys..kinda stuff.
I say hold on, don't go out on any limbs, I still hear chainsaws in the woods...timber!
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
PROUD MEMBER OF THE " I ROCKED WITH REZ" CLUB
mike- we have already talked via Email about what I am going to do differently in 2010
but if you want to make $50,000- it's pretty simple.
get in shape
strap on your tool belt
start roofing
want $50,000?-simplicity itself
Want$100,000 ?-achievable
want $200,000?-well it requires ability to manage employees or multiple sub crews-and better sales skills-but still maneageable
a week or so ago, in another thread someone pointed out to a newbie the unliklihood of him replacing his $35,000 a year as an employee in his first year as a contractor.
frankly-
I don't understand that reasoning because you can make much more than THAT- simply roofing garages
don't want to roof?-ok
you could accomplish the same figure-replacing water heaters.
Point is-pick somthing simple-preferably something you can ALSO charge a service call for-and get to work!
$50,000 is pretty modest
are you telling me you can't sell 1000 hours of work next year at $50/hour plus overhead expenses of say $20,000+ $70/hour?
Of COURSE you can!
AND- it's even easier if you are getting a $90 service call just for pulling in the customers driveway.
In my case- I am concentrating ezxtra hard on slate & tile repairs
particularly tile roof repairs because I get paid for the repair PLUS I can make money from selling the tiles.- Oh yes, the beautiful tiles that the customer MUST have-and yet can't be cought at home depot or lowes
did a repair on weds.- the tiles were made on 8-29-21 !
specialize-and get to work!
stephen
Shh....don't tell anyone else about roofing.
It doesn't have to be roofing- it could be water heaters, replacing garbage disposals, replacing doors, wall papering-whatever. Frankly- I don't know how ANYBODY makes any money in general remodeling. I repaired aleak in one of the tiled showers upstairs in my house.
after I tracked the leak down-the fix waqs pretty simple
AND putting a piece of drywall up in the powder room ceiling below the shower was pretty simple but thursday morning I put up some small crown molding in that powder room. Ceiling has 2 sides 49-1/2" and 2 sides 41-1/2"-plus their is a toilet and a sink to work around taking up floor space man-what a huge pain in the rear1- plus I STILL can't believe the number of tools I had to get out and set up etc.-to install 4 pieces of molding-and the number of trips to and from the garage to cut,re-cut, scribe with the sander etc.-just no fun at all If I add up all the time I sunk into that 41-1/2x49-1/2 ceiling at roofing rates that ceiling would have been WAY over $1000-and I don't see any customer paying that!Stephen
What I was doing before going BACK to roofing and special copper, was sash refurbish.
Old single panes, DHungs and the like. We have a historical district, ( read no new vinyl replacements) and other modest homes that want them fixed, not trashed.
Staying busy as I can with copper, but theere are still sash to be rebuilt everywhere, once ya start, your name spreads. I've gotten them down to a quick turnaround, and few surprises. Things like new stops and parting beads and weather seal is all extra.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
PROUD MEMBER OF THE " I ROCKED WITH REZ" CLUB
sphere- I have been meaning to ask was thinking about this last week-and i knew you were doing some sash repair. do you think this is feasible? for example: Prospective customer wants some sash rebuilt>
I Email you digital pictures
you give me a price
I remove sash,ship down to you--WITH MONEY!
you work your magic and then ship up to me
I re-install,new stops etc????? I am assuming glass might not handle that kind of transport- but I can re-glaze up here if neededStephen
No problem what so ever.
Or, I can precut and miter the azek glass stops and send you a slew if ya want. Or send the sash for rot fix or, often I make a new rail or stile or muntin if they are too far gone to save cost effectively.
I did that with a church from Pa. all trefoil and busted tracery. Shipping is not a huge deal. TRUCKING is, I think Grant has finally made a good connection for shipping BIG stuff.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
PROUD MEMBER OF THE " I ROCKED WITH REZ" CLUB
I should have contacted you last summerProspective customer-I could have EASILY sold this if I could have sourced the manufacture anyhow, prospective customer wanted a wooden storm door, ARCHED top would this have worked?
I photo existing opening and photo of similar door on neighboring house-Template opening-send money,measurements etc.
you ship me door- I install on location? I don't know about in the future- but on that one we would have had a $1300 to $1700 budget I believe.
stephenBTW- also thinking Cupolas
Yeah, any arch, needs a template. Nothing fancy, just accurate.
IIRC UPS is 90lbs max, and 7' long max. So a 6'8" door JUST squeaks by with crating or boxing.
A cupola can be KD, ( knock down) boxed in 3 boxes. Base, waist and louvers, and lid with spire. Even the copper can be pre cut and bent, you field lock the hips and apply the spire. All you need is hand tongs then and a few rivets for the lid. The base and waist are mitered corners that are screwed.
I didn't install the first one I made for Grant, so I made it "idiot proof" ( no , not Grant, one of his subs) But did install the last two myself. They go up quick and easy. All parts slip and slide onto the previous one. All pre drilled and countersunk, and screws included.
I'm game for anything, nothing is impossible.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
PROUD MEMBER OF THE " I ROCKED WITH REZ" CLUB
I installed a cupola for a customer in 2008.
they ordered it from somebody-in Wisconsin I think Came by commerical carrier-really should have had a fork lift to unload it- took 4 of us to unload itwas in 2 pieces- really should have had a crane to set it- but we got it up there 3 pieces would have been WAY easier- I think the base of this was about 42"-man that was heavy. so it came pre-primed-and they never had it painted-never had the fastner holes filled. I saw it on this past monday-man they payed a BUNDLE for this thing-and it is looking pretty ratty already-cause they never properly painted it. I really only put it up for them as a courtesy- but I will never do so again unless I have more controll over the whole thing-including final finish coat AND the original source AND the total cost. I see some possibilities for this-when things start trickling in again in the spring maybe we can talk off line and put some things together
stephen.
I pre-prime only, being as finish paint is often best done after install, as you note. And what I have been doing is using as much azek and trex type composites or Advantech for longevity so when the paint is not keep up with ( like how many folks remember to paint a cupola?) it won't weather away.
Even the louvers if not copper are vinyl, never peel or need paint if white or copper.
These last were 32" wide by about 6' tall, and still heavy as all get out, due to being comp. materials and not some lightweight cruddy redwood that is all sap wood these days.
Obviously paint grade is gonna be less $$ than a clear finished or stained cupola, just due to the material costs. It takes the same labor for me either way.
I look forward to working with ya in any way I can.
Don't forget, Grant has some excellent eyebrow and barrel vents and dormers on his web site, I make the wood, he does the rest. It's a good relationship.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
PROUD MEMBER OF THE " I ROCKED WITH REZ" CLUB
you grew up down the road from George Nakashima and his operation right? i have his books-well his and his daughters'He had something to say about the economies of small scale productioni forget at the moment exaxctly the term he used- i will have to look it up but basically-he didn't want a huge factory employing hundreds spitting out parts on a CNC machine
AND- not really feasible to feed a family splitting out billets with a froebut somewhere in between????- there is the sweet spot? just enough technology- to make an independent guy-a decent living?
and a collaboration-of independent guys with their own specialties?
so why can't the internet serve to hook small guys up with like minded goals- to ALL of their economic gain.
you would never have met Grant without Breaktime, right? we will see what the spring brings,
stephen
Yeah, Bucks Co. has some excellent talent, and Geo's shop was in my circle of learning experiances, as was being employed with Ellis Walentine ( head of some woodworking forum now) and many, many others.
Wood tuners like Michael Mode was am aquaintence and I had the pleasure of COMPETEING with some of them "great" guys, when I was green.
Funny actually how I met Grant, I was sitting in my living room in an apt we rented while I was gettin the house ready for habitation, and across the street was a copper job ongoing or recently done. My wife always said "You'd do well with something like that" I didn't have any interest at all.
BUT, I was looking for lead flashing for my house,and calling around Lexington..no luck. Grant then somehow mentioned he could obtain it. Then he posted a pic. of THAT copper job!.
I didn't have any reason to further contact him yet, and we bumped and chatted here, then I contracted to do a cedar roof and purchased my valley and ridge from him, about that time, he asked if I was interested in doing a job for him. That was that Oak shake job.
Then it just blossemed from there.
And here we are.
I think a consortium of BT'ers in cahoots would be a good thing. (G)Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
PROUD MEMBER OF THE " I ROCKED WITH REZ" CLUB
>Shh....don't tell anyone else about roofing<
too late around here. in the last year or less they've popped up around here like ants at a picnic. All kinds of signs advertising hail damage repair but we haven't had hail here in a looooong time. Somehow they're getting the insurance companies to payout though.
too late around here. in the last year or less they've popped up around here like ants at a picnic.
Around here too.
One man bands because the Workmans Comp on a full crew is too expensive. Lots of one man bands working cheap and just hard enough to pay the rent and tip the strippers on Friday.
I agree with Stephen that if the goal is a specific income level than specialization is the way to go. I even agree thay roofing is a way to make that goal............
But right now I could get someone to come put a roof on my house for $200 and a bowl of Rice Krispies.
Building a reputation that would allow you to charge $70 an hour or more, against that competition, in what I call a "Walmart Society"??
Might take more than a year.
Stephen,
I don't know if roofing is the way to go around here as there are ALOT of roofers. Last estimate my roofer said there are like 400 registered in our local area. But the specialty thing is definitely the ticket! Its because you can get the work just for showing up. I think AC would be the ticket here as its FL and ALWAYS hot! Just need to get the license for it...
And yes as you have seen remodeling is a bit of a pain in the rear. I actually like the challenge and all but at the end of the day the profit seems too low to make any decent money. Its just hard to charge as much as your time is worth and still hit the dollar amount I want to reach.
As it stands, I have about $12-15k each year in recurring expenses so it doesn't take alot to stay in business...just need to make that much more to still hit some goals.
I know no one wants to ever share it but I sure would like to know what alot of you guys bring in at the end of the year. Most guys doing what I do in my area were lucky to bring in $30k last year and 4 others went out of business altogether!
Got to make some changes in 2010....
We have a lot of AC guys here in Austin...lots of roofers too. The AC guy I use is hurting..and our economy is fairly robust. I don't see any substantial recovery in 2010 when I look in my glass ball. I've been a pessimist for a few years now when I look at the national scene though. I hope I'm wrong. I think the banks are hiding a lot of bad stuff....
Stephen,
I generally agree with you. I don't see how a new or recently established company can make any money in remodeling.
Specialization is the way to go for most people.
As an Example: Stair Rails. I could hit three or four shops up for work. I know how much work I can complete in a day and I know how much it pay. Within three maybe four months of putting tools back on I could be working 7 hours a day and generating $450 a day with very low overhead.
Now the question:
If you were an unknow roofer in your area, How long do you think it would take you to build the reputation and client base you have. The reputation and Client base that pays you $90 just to pull in the driveway?
robert,
I have some ideas on that-------- and I would be happy to talk about that- but right now I am hopped up on buckwheat pancakes and multiple cups of coffee and RIGHT NOW is the ideal time for me to head out for a run. Back in a bit. Hey- in the meantime- blue wasn't even IN the roofing business 6-8 weeks ago-and he says he is doing 3 roofs a week now- so certainkley HE hgas some ideas about this.
stephen
Just an idea for you roofing folks I did not see mentioned.
aerial vue bing or google or similar web sites --
review a neighborhood on-line looking for probable problem roofs, the name and address of the owner then immediately available on the county property records )(at least it is here).
Target letters specifically to those folks with a color copy of their roof from the air - pointing out precific likely problemareas in the next few years - avoid horror stories, but do tell how they could save by having the job done now.
Art a very good idea, except, most of the time those roofs are the last to be done. Most reroofing is done on roofs that from the ground or air, don't appear to nead it.
I have been in the roofing business and when calling on houses, I liked the ones that were neat and well kept. Those are the homeowners that care, and when their roofi 20+ years old, they are willing to get it done, before a problem occurs!
Dave
OK,
all I can say after scanning a few of the business threads over hte years is that I am sure glad I stayed a corporate 'worker bee' 35 years ago vs. trying to start a construction business <G>
You probably made a lot more money too.
JH,
I do think you made the right decision as well!
I like working for myself but honestly made more money and had less anguish when I worked in the coporate world. I would go back if I could find a job comparable to what I left but they are all gone.
So I plug along....
Hey .. your still young enough to give it a try.. you may be the one in a million who actually does well at at it.
Life is Good
I use aerial views all the time for various reasons but the pictures aren't clear enough to discern damage. Also, the pictures are several years old. I typically pull up a Google Earth view to determine if I can ship the materials to the roof. I look to see if trees will block the boom. I also sometimes use it to count roof vents but usually, they are too hard to see. The VX25's show up very easily and I find it helpful to make sure I'm sending the proper amount out. I have occasionally used the Google Earth views to fill in missing dimensions. That works fine if there aren't any trees blocking the view. I've also used it to determine ridge lengths for ridge vents and caps although I normally have those dimensions.
robert,some things lend themselves to charging a service call just for showing up-
it depends on the REASON the customer called youand BTW- I generally have CUSTOMERS- not "clients"-that is my customers have something specific they want to buy-solution to a particular problem.
Beleive me- we could discuss the difference between customers and clients all day-but believe me- when push comes to shove- what you really want is a customer shelling out cash buying your goods and services-customer = $$$$$ but back to service calls- how does that work? plumbers get $90 for driving-to come out and solve a specific problem
electricians get$90-same type of situation
appliance repairmen-same deal
need underground drains snaked?-same deal
Garage door serviced?-same deal
HVAC service?--same dealSo as a tradesman- what service can you provide-that will fit into the same type of parameters-roofing will definitely fit into that rangemaybe 10-15 years ago- I used to run a VERY small yellow pages add GEARED at EXACTLY that type of work-add wasn't any bigger than a matchbook-and they figured--"small problem,small add,probably small price"-and as a result I would get $380 to reflash a chimney, I would be home by lunchtime-and the rest of the day was free to take my kids to the library,coach baseball-whatever-eventually I would do something for their neighbor-and then the neighbors co-worker-and then re-roof the co-workers mothers house-and so forth but it all came back to-solving a specific problem in exchange for $$$$ you know-of all the people we know here on Breaktime- think of the ones that NEVER complain about money.
what do they have in common?
I am not going to name names-but they all sell specific things, they are KNOWN for that,and most of them had some sort of transformative experience where they realized they were going to have to change the way they were doing things and they were going to have to GET PAID. and the folks who have problems???? It always seems like they are giving their time away-to "clients"Stephen
Excellent info Stephen. Thanks.
sperm donation?
Seriously though. Look at your marketing if you need to drive revenue, there are several ways to increase your "brand awareness" that do not cost much.
It it's not a matter of sales numbers and you would like to increase efficiency or the accuracy of estimates that's a different matter.
So, are you having a problem with your top line or bottom line?
Hmmm, sperm donation? Never thought of that.
I am having trouble getting the phone to ring. Tried a host of different advertising methods but no calls. Running an ad in a high end journal nw for specialized work so maybe that will result in something?
Need some decent $50-100k jobs to set up for next year. $5-10k ones are OK but you can't make decent money off of them.
We make fairly good money on smaller jobs, as a percentage we make the most on anything less than a grand, but it's all in how well you can accurately estimate the time and more importantly, be prepared for the project before you show up. If you can hit your labor and material estimate and want to limate your exposure to risk quote the jobs T&M or cost plus. Explain that it's best because of the complexity and small nature of the project that it works out best for both of you. The only catch is when you provide then a labor estimate you better be able to hit within the range you gave them and if not you better have a good explanation as to what you ran into that took more time. Most important, keep them updated on the status regularly so there are no surprises when you present the bill.
Things we do that don't cost much and seem to deliver way more bang for the buck than any other marketing we do:
Job Signs on all projects, mail letters to nearest 15-20 houses when you're working, knock on the closet neighbors doors, sponsor or donate time to local charities, etc.
In any event, become more active in the community, the more people you can meet, the wider your client base becomes. My best referals and jobs come from the few organizations I particapate in. Don't go in with a hard sell, but as you meet people and become comfortable you'll naturally be asked what you do, then you can provide a very small pitch and ask if there's anything you can do for them, or tell them if they ever need anything done to call you and slip them a card or two.
Hmmm? I am doing those kinds of things but not getting the phone to ring....Just sent out 50 letters in the neighborhood I have been working but haven't gotten any calls?
I do make money on the small jobs as we do all those on T&M so there is never any lost money....Its just hard to make some decent money when you only get one or two jobs per month.
I guess I just need to push harder to find work...I know part of it is the economy as EVERYONE in my area is slow and guys are calling me as they think I am the busiest! But I do want more!!!
Try knocking on those 50 doors instead of sending letters. Ask if you could set up an appointment with both decision makers for any remodeling needs that they may have.
Blue,
Well, I did that on two homes there but it is a gated community and I could tell the folks weren't too receptive of me going door to door. It would probably work in neighborhood like I live in but the high-end, wealthy home one seemed like it would warrant a letter. But it hasn't worked so who the hell knows?!
Mike,
I think you are using the right tactic-on the wrong prospects. you mentioned you sent out 50 letters to the residents of a gated community-you got zero response- but you think it would work in YOUR neighborhood. OK- here is the moment when you should be dope slapping yourself----------------------
why aren't you sending them to YOUR neighborhood- and neighborhoods like yours? your self image is maybe too tied up in wanting to work in that gated community-when those 50 letters were long shots to begin with.
think about it- what are the odds that one of those 50 households is in the market for a $90,000 kitchen-and is going to go with YOU-a guy they don't know from Adam? you have to find the right neighborhood for that sort of thing---WITH the right product-AND- you have to send out several hundred this week-and several hundred next week,and several hundred the week after that-and the week after that and the week after that........ Basically ALL the time. with door hangers this year- I have had people call the DAY they recieved them-others called a couple weeks later-some have hung on to them for over a year before they called-some of them become repeat customers- others are one time only deals- I have 2 right now that I did projects for this fall-with bigger projects for the same people planned for the spring. I admidt- it can be a bit of a grind-basically I am manufacturing an endless series of $300---$2500 sales---and it would be much simpler to just wait for a nice juicy slate roof to drop in my lap again but untill THAT happens- I have some last tuition checks to write-and a LOT of stocks I want to buy----and so I am hunting up CUSTOMERS instead of consoling myself over what a valuable resource I would be for "clients"-if only they would call.Very best wishes,
stephen
Again...some very excellent information Stephen, Thanks!
Stephen,
I guess I want those markets as everyone has always said you have to work for people with money...the Volvo, BMW neighborhoods. I live in an AMC Pacer neighborhood and those folks budgets can't pay for the jobs I want to secure.
I do understand what you are saying however....I just need to find the niche and the market and in the right combination.
I do know this economy has changed alot of things as many guys in my area are closing their doors so maybe I should be happy I just have work instead of wanting more and better work.
Mike
mike, just my opinion-but you are making a serious tactical mistake lets look at roofing
here-a $5000 roof- in that range would be an levittown style cape cod tear off and re-roof------one day, call it 2 EASY days if there is also a garage.
how many of those can you do in a week?--3,4,5 ????
you can do a $20,000 roof and a couple of $5000 roofs in a week how many weeks does a $100,000 project take you?
long,Long,LONG before that $100,000 project gets done those $5000 roofs will totally have out earned the $100,000 project.
BUT- you have to sell those roofs to keep 4 roofers busting balls AND you have to spend your days listening to guys talk about Nascar,Tatoos,fishing and their days playing highschool football 8 years ago-plus occasionally bail them out. If you can sell'em,keep em organized AND put up with a lifetime spent with roofers- you can out earn doctors-on $5000 roofsand you can do the same with siding,replacement windows- lots of stuff. Me personally- I just ain't that interested in money to grind it out like that more than a few months at a time once my nut is made- work becomes a lot less interesting,LOL
stephen
Stephen....shhhhh. Stop telling all the secrets LOL. Roofing is even better when you don't have to be the lead roofer. I have spent many enjoyable hours up on the roofs helping my crew. And, since they actually work hard, there isn't all that banter that you speak about. They do play a lot of Mexican music and the guys that don't like it wear Ipods. Roofing is a job that doesn't require much interaction and communication so the headphones thing is ideal. Your assessment of the numbers is spot on too. 100k jobs are rife with traps too and thats something that you haven't mentioned. A 100k job can easily go south because the grout was a darker shade of grey than the sample looked like. Or worse, because it changes color when it gets wet (yes, I had to deal with that).
Stephen,
I definitely agree a lot of smaller jobs is better than one big one! Just have to find my niche for that...
I know what you mean by not needing alot but I don't have any kind of retirement set up so I have to start making some now to be able to start putting things away. I have 15-20 more years of work ahead of me but still would like to be putting money away NOW.
Mike
You need to read the book The Richest Man in Babylon. I love the smaller sized roofing jobs as compared to the remodeling jobs. I was disappointed when a local Home Depot rearranged their aisles and I had to hunt for the roofing aisle LOL. Life is so much simpler when you specialize. That was one reason why I concentrated on framing: same tools, same supplies, same guys....no surprises. That all adds up to money if you know what you are doing and can streamline your processes. Besides, I liked standing up large houses.
OK, its on my list to read now.
I completely agree with you and Stephen about the specialization and the efficency and speed that comes with it! I just can't figure out what I can specialize in...and it drives me nuts!
Mike
Focus on something...anything and market hard for that. In the meantime, while you are waiting for your efforts to pay off, take what you can get. Stephen is encouraging you to run your business as a tradesman. I would encourage you to find a tradesman and run your specialty business around/through him. Probably right now, you are searching your bag of skills and trying to sell them. Why not look around and first, find out what the market seeks...then find the solution? Haz was trying to tell you that too. So, what is your market buying? What do they NEED?
Start pushing our new collection agency harder, your money troubles will be over!>G<
Really...that may be my best prospect right now! :)
Mike,
Thought about selling my hair but am totally bald. Been working on a way to train my cell phone to charge on it's own but that has not worked out.
My plan for 2010 is to go back into business for myself again. I was laid off last January working as a sub for a builder in my area. Things just really tanked big time here in southeast Iowa.
Went to work for a guy doing decks and fences and small home improvements. With my experience he has doubled his income over last year. But where I'm making myself known is his call backs.
He goes in and tries to say change a door, does such a crappy quiky lube style work he has me come in to fix it. They see my work and the way I take care of things I get asked for my phone number to do other projects.
I already have contracts to do service work on 2 large condo communities and 4 kitchen remodels.
That's where I am going to specilize in Kitchens, Bathrooms, Basement and Decks.
GaryS