I am getting ready to build a house in the Austin, TX area. I have read about 24″ on center framing (2X6) (FHB 10/05). I was wondering about any thoughts out there….. I asked a GC friend of mine in CA and he said no way….. According to the article it provides for better insulation and 35%+ cost savings.
Thanks for your input.
Casey
Listeners write in about fireplaces and ask questions about sharpening hand tools, easier wiring upgrades, and fixing cedar siding.
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial NowGet instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
Replies
This is a method developed in the seventies that seemed great with the understanding they had back then.
But it is pretty much passe` now. Combining BIBBs or blown cellulose dense-packed with foam panel on 2x4 walls will give you far better insulation performance than FG batts ( the worst kind of insulation available) in 2x6walls. The 24" framing will cause you other problems also with wavy looking finish surfaces. Sprayed Poly urethene foam will insulate you even better,
I consider this 24" method a waste of time and resources.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin, why do you consider it a waste of materials? if your using 35% less materials?
24 inch framing will give you more wavy look? Quite the opposite. This is obvious even on the face of it. More framing members give you waves. Fewer members even out any unevenness over a greater distance making it LESS noticible, not more.
Not true unless you are using #### for studs.Sheathing and sheetrock both will deflect enough to be noticeable on studding at 16" OC. That has always been the most common complaint I have heard from people who own them.It gets addressed by better builders by going to the 5/8" sheathing and sheetrock, but then where are the savings when you have to spend more for that?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"or better insulation and 35%+ cost savings."
better that WHAT?
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
24" centers allow you to get by with a single top plate with trusses over the wall studs.
Joe h
JoeH, I was thinking the same thing. Is a double top plate required by code if you use 16 OC for stubs and 24 OC for rafters or stubs, as no stub is direct beneath every other truss?
Without looking in the book (buried) I can't say, but it wouldn't be a good idea to put those loads on a single 2by and (probably) wouldn't pass inspection either.
I can look it up if you really want to know, although I have 03 IRC, not current version.
Joe H
Joe, not sure of the nature of my thought or question as it has been awhile. But I think you and I are saying the same thing.
I don't think you can use a single top plate if a rafter or joist falls between two studs. Therefore if you go 24 OC for studs, you must use a double top plate. I beleive someone on this thread said differently.
Whatever.
DoRight,
Code requires a double top plate, unless studs and rafter/trusses are "stacked" (aligned directly over each other) then you can go with a single top plate
Geoff
Thanks Geoffrey, that is what I had beleived to be the case.
What is meant when the code says 2x4 bearing walls on 24" centers are OK for supporting no more than one floor plus one roof above?
Is this the way one would describe the exterior firstfloor walls of a platform-framed house with one floor above, i.e., a two story house?
'Cause if that is the case, doesn't it poke holes in the positions of those participants in this thread that said 2x4x24 cannot be used for two story construction?
Would someone please cite the code language (IRC, please) specific to this question? I don't have a copy of the code, nor is it available online.
Good question.
From IRC, 2006: "R602.3.. Stud size, height and spacing. ...shall be in accordance with Table R602.3.(5). Exceptions:1. Utility grade studs shall not be spaced more than 16 inches (406mm) on center, shall not support...etc.2. Studs more than 10 feet (3048 mm) in height which are in accordance with Table R602.3.1. "There's a lot more detail, more than I care to type, covering top plates and other stuff. But, to distill it here, don't use utility grade studs if you want to go beyond 16 in. o.c. Don't go over 10 feet. With those limitations, here's what meets code for 2.4 and for 2.6 studs:24 inches o.c. for anything EXCEPT:You can't exceed 16" o.c. when you're supporting two floors, roof and ceiling. No matter what size the studs. [I'm pretty sure they mean a three story house, or the equivalent--a two story house over a basement. Count up the number of floors above the supporting studs.] You can't exceed 16" o.c. WHEN using 2 x 4 studs if you're supporting anything more than the roof and ceiling. [I think this pretty clearly means a one story house. No two story house at 24" o.c.] If you'll go up to 2 x 6 studs, then you can use 24" o.c. on a two story.So, if you've got a one story house, and the studs are only supporting its ceiling and a roof, you can space at 24" o.c. and use either 2 x 4 or 2 x 6 studs, SO LONG AS the studs don't exceed 10 feet in length/height AND are better than utility grade.That's the best I can do to recreate the gist of the table. There is more info. there for nonbearing walls and for odd stud sizes. It's in Ch 6, Wall Construction, page 123 and the table is on p. 127.
24" centers allow you to get by with a single top plate with trusses over the wall studs.
Joe,
If someone frames with a single top plate and passes code, what good is it when using precuts ? It shortens up the wall height by 1-1/2" and ever piece of sheetrock would have to be cut.Joe Carola
Joe, I have no clue what the OP is doing as far as wall height, but it's no biggie to take an edge off DW. Let the rockers figure it out.....
Guess I'll have to dig up the blue book and see what it actually sez. Probably won't pass unless the roof is stacked directly over the studs.
Joe H
In our area we can get 94-14" precuts. We use them a lot for interior walls.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
<<In our area we can get 94-14" precuts. We use them a lot for interior walls.>>Same here in NC for both 8' and 9' walls. Only use them for interior walls though same as you.------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
We use 2x6's on 24" spacing with spray foam and full plywood sheathing for hurricane prevention here in NC. You need to sweat the details, read up on Joe Lstiburek and his advanced framing details but done right it is a good system.
I'm sure there are lots of differing opinions. To each his own, there are a lot of trade-offs and yes I've seen the "framing goes ballistic" article about the advantages of faom with regard to flying 2x4's in test labs. I've also been in houses I framed this way in a hurricane that dumped seven trees on my house and when one was rammed by a back hoe and I assure you it can be a very stiff way to build a house. We're also way ahead of the pack on energy star with 5" of foam in the walls and roof. You can get there with 2x4's and foam sheathing but this system works very well for us.
I cannot vouch for any cost savings however, I just do it for the stoutness of the fully OSB sheathed 2x6 walls and the energy savings.
My wife's truck (63 ford 3/4 ton) had the brakes go out when we were bringing in firewood, fully loaded into the master bedroom wing, no damage (to the truck or the house) other than a few mangled shingles. The backhoe was another story, it hit on the roof and we had some repairs to do but the house stood firm.
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
"fully OSB sheathed 2x6"Do you mean that you use osb sheathing on the inside too?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
<<"fully OSB sheathed 2x6" Do you mean that you use osb sheathing on the inside too?>>No------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Then what do you mean by fully sheathed?????don't your peers there use sheathing? What holds the house together?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
<<Then what do you mean by fully sheathed?????
don't your peers there use sheathing? What holds the house together?>>A lot of them use Styrofoam or Blackboard sheathing that has no hurricane resistance, just put let-in bracing in the walls or a few sheets of OSB in the corners, and only holding the walls down to the floor ply with 16's. I'm talking about bridging the rim joist with OSB using it to tie the mud sills into the bottom 12" of the studs and to tie the tops of the studs to the bottoms of the second floor studs to keep the walls from being sucked off the floors in a hurricane.We have different wind and flying tree problems down here than you guys do in the north east. Different humidity and temperature conditions too. What makes sense here may not make sense where you are. ------------------"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Edited 9/7/2007 8:49 pm ET by ShelterNerd
I sheath like you do. Thought that kind of fuzzboard sheathing went out in the late sixties/early seventies.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I beleive 24 OC requires 5/8 drywall vs 1/2 inch. This is an added cost, and more difficult to handle. Lastly, 5/8 requires unique door and window jams.
24" requires 5/8" on the ceilings only. works just fone with 1/2" on the walls and no code issues. Been doing it this way for thirty years. ------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
probably verys by state and county.
Interesting answers.... "better that what" means according to the article you don't use the Ca corner which provides for better fill, he is also talking about using blown in not FG batts.
OK, Now I gotta ask what is a Ca corner?waste of materials because you are going to a thicker wall. A 2x6 uses more wood than a 2x4.Claims that you use 35% less wood is based on ideal situations. box style house with few corners and few windows. modular dimensioning...When you run your own calcs for an actual house with projections, intersects, windows with their cripples and jacks, etc, and compare actual BF, you find it is closer to +/- 5% on the lumber. A wash!BTDT, Ain't going back.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
>>> I gotta ask what is a Ca corner?<<<
Need 3 studs to build a legal corner.
Traditional corner post is 2 studs with blocks in between them = 2 studs; end stud of adjoining wall = 1 stud --- 2 + 1 = 3 = legal.
Ca corner is 2 studs nailed togther in an L = 2 studs + end stud of adjoining wall = 3 studs = legal. The L configuration allows insulation to extend a bit farther between one leg of the L and the sheathing.
Ca corners are somewhat popular here since they do not require as much assembly, they have spread from exterior to interior wall applications. I find them to be a PITA when doing interior trim as they reduce the amount of available nailing area in the critical "near corner" areas.
At least this is what I understand a Ca corner to be. Should really be CA corner for "California corner". Have only heard the term once before.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Thanks.That is how I do corners all the time, but I call them an L corner instead of California corner, having never framed in California.I find that they give me at least as much nailing for trim and SR, it is better way to make insulating easier and the electrician likes it if he has to drill the corner.The exterior trim is where it comes up lacking when we use corner boards sometimes.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
But the more I think about it - I can't see what that has to do with this 24" OC scheme. it works the same for 16" OC and it doesn't save on how many studs you use.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hi JTC1,
Your correct, an L shaped corner is described and a CA Corner.
But it is pretty rare that we get to build them into exterior walls anymore. We have so much engineering that requires 4x material or double studs nailed together for shear nailing and hold downs.
I use the L corners a lot on interior walls if the situation allows me to.
Howie
A California corner is (I am used to using 2X6 framing, but it applies to 2X4 also) a method where you have the wall framing that extends to the corner (wall 1) met by the other wall (wall 2) in a fashion where wall 2 butts up against wall 1. Finally, although this does not sound unique, wall one has an additional 2X6 perpendicular to the last stud and butting up against the last stud in wall 2. This allows better use of insulation with appreciable strength. This also provides an attachment surface for drywall.
I am sure this image could be reduced in size, so if someone will do that, I will erase this post.
Edited 9/7/2007 5:18 pm ET by Sasquatch
Who in California thinks that the three-stud corner was invented in the Golden State?
Hi Gene,
I don't know if it was invented here but that is what I've always heard it called. Same with the term Calif. fill where you have two roofs perpendicular to each other and you cut the ridge and jacks onto the sheathing of the other roof.
I think a lot off those terms came from the subdivisions and track homes that they built in the 60's and 70's here in Calif. They built mass amounts off cookie cutter homes, all looking the same maybe adding a bay on some or flipping floor plans.
There are still many subdivisions being built here and the terms are still used even by Architects.
Howie
Edited 9/7/2007 11:15 pm ET by howhighlites
Maybe some unemployed actors? ;-)"Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Gene,
The framers that I worked with when I used to come out after school all called them California corners. I think it just came out of the tracts is all.
Around here, that is all I've ever heard them called.
"he is also talking about using blown in not FG batts."But with 2x6, you still get thermal bridging. if you build 2x4, blown in, and then skin the interior with Thermax foam, you eliminate that, and end up with a higher R-value than the 2x6 wall, and sealed better too.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Casey,
I think 24" oc is fine. It's alive and well here in CT. The "35% cost savings" seems a bit outlandish. Maybe 35% fewer studs?
A 48' wall 24" oc will have 25 studs, 16" will have 37 studs. Not counting extras for corners, kings and jacks. You can shave a few kings by having the windows fall on a natural stud location. Still, that's a hypothetical savings of 12 studs on one wall long wall.
For a 2-story house we're talking maybe 80 fewer studs on a $20K-$30K framing package?
Someone else posted about trusses 24" on center and not having to run a double top plate. If you frame the walls 24" oc and your joist and/or rafters are not stacked over the studs, then you'll need double top plates. Normally not a worry as I prefer doubled up tops myself, even if things are stacked.
One extra item. With 24" framing on the exterior walls, consider using 5/8ths inch sheetrock on the interior of those same walls.
Mo bedda stiffah for day-to-day wear and tear, and better fire resistance over regular half-inch rock.
So you may save some here, you may spend a little more there...
Mongo
Thanks Mongo, for your input! Here is the link and article title The Future of Framing Is Here. Smarter strategies can save money, speed construction, improve energy efficiency, and cut down on job-site waste
by Joseph Lstiburek http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/how-to/articles/future-framing-walls.aspx?langtype=1033&ac=fpI find it really interesting how we as contractors have our ways..:) On the west coast we use word drive and on the east they don't! When I was in PA I couldn't buy a worm drive.... :)On the wall you just illustrated.. that is around 30%+/- that would be a savings...... which would mean.. i would have it to put in other places. I was going to use 5/8ths anyway.Casey
We tried the 5/8" rock on one house and forgot to reflect the change in the window and door order. Royal pain. went back to 1/2" rock and no prob. I haven't noticed any difference in the wear of the house with 5/8" on the walls vrs the ones with 1/2". I'm not sure if 6 11/16" door jambs are available but would check before ordering rock. I like doing my own window jamb extensions but ordering 6 9/16" windows does save time. M------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
We've designed our new house in north Georgia on a 24" module and are planning to use 2x4 rather than 2x6 framing. Slab on grade; brick veneer; hydronic infloor radiant heat; fully encapsulated in Icynene--walls and a cathedralized unvented attic application. Our understanding is there's no problem with using 2x4 framing since the walls are only 9' high and we're not using any utility grade framing lumber. Construction drawings are being finalized. We don't have seizmic or particular high wind considerations. We're not going to change to 2x6 framing at this point, but if there's some reason not to use 24" o.c. framing we CAN change that to 16". Can you advize?
I think in many places, if you go 24 OC you MUST use 2x6s.
I need to check and see any weirdness that's been adopted around here. Short of that, it ought to pass muster at 24" o.c., no utility grade studs, since it's a one story house with 9' walls. If you're used to building a lot of two-stories that changes everything.
When using 5/8ths sheetrock to deal with the extra depth I still order the windows with standard depth jambs and extend them out past the 5/8ths sheetrock with 3/16ths inch thick by 3/4" wide rips of poplar. Set the poplar rips back from the inside face of the jamb by a bit for an extra shadow line.
Set the window trim back from the inside edge of the poplar rip a bit as well. Takes a few minutes to rip the poplar, I usually take ot from scraps. Minimal extra time added to the trim timeline.
Mongo
"On the wall you just illustrated.. that is around 30%+/- that would be a savings......"
But that is for one long plain wall only, not counting plates and jacks and cripples in your figuring. You have to calculate the whole framing package for the entire house that you are building and see how many board feet you are actually dealing with to compare accurately. Some plain jane houses carefully planned might save 10% or so, but to take 30% on one wall and project that over the whole house is an assumption of monstrous proportions.Wanna spend it someplace else?
Well, there is always the extension jambs;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
We call them energy corners: 2 2xs in an ell at a wall end. The abutting wall gets a 1x (we use Advantec scraps) nailed on the end stud to catch the sheetrock and trim. It's not perfect, but it allows for some insulation in the corners. We also try use side ways purlins instead of tees, and for sheathing blocking. Someone's got it in for me, they're planting stories in the press
Whoever it is I wish they'd cut it out but when they will I can only guess.
They say I shot a man named Gray and took his wife to Italy,
She inherited a million bucks and when she died it came to me.
I can't help it if I'm lucky.
http://www.eere.energy.gov/buildings/building_america/pdfs/db/35380.pdf
Building 24 ioc is just good building practice. Probably 90% of the better built homes I have been through in my area during the past half dozen years are built that way. Most homes here today are built with roof trusses that also fall 24 inche on center, so that the load transfer, even with cement shake roofs are easy to do. The larger cavity gives you much more space for bat insulation, which around here, is still by far the least expensive way to achieve R-19 or greater walls.
Today there is a tendency for the trades like electrical to hog out one inch or greater holes in the studs to pull wires. Also, in our area, almost all piping is now PEX, which also gets a nearly two inche hole hoged out of the stud. Add cat 5 wiring and you've got lots of things happening in the stud wall of a high end house today. All these trades in a 2x4 stud wall mean that the insulation has to be placed very well or else it gets compressed and looses much of its insulation value.
I was in a medium priced home early this year that was built with 2x4 studs. The city building inspector had marked probably three dozen studs to be replaced because one of the trades had put so many close holes in the wood that there was almost no structural width left.
I've also run into problems in 2x4 wall where the wires and PEX were so close to the front (or back) of the stud that the drywall nails or sheathing screws hit the chase. The problems didn't surface until the house was finished, of course, so the contractor had to go back in and replace drywall, insulating, and in a couple places, pull new PEX and wire. Figure that into your cost.
Denny
Denny, You make a good point about the 2x6 being more "plumber friendly"
I think we(architects & designers& builders) should simply avoid plumbing on exterior walls or double up at the plumbing. I still think there is a place for 2x4's at 16 o.c.
When used with floppy fiber cement siding 16 oc is better.
There are other ways to improve r-value.
I think if if the rooms of a house are properly sized then there is a cost involved in making the whole house 4 inches wider and 4 inches deeper.
You talk about how 24" OC is good practice and about 2x4 studs. Are you equating 24" OC with the usage of 2x6 studs?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Your electricians should be drilling 7/8" holes and running (2) 12/2 or 12/3 romex thru them. Your plumbers should be drilling 1-3/8" holes and using plastic bushings for 1/2" or 3/4" pipe in them.
I framed my shop with 2x6 @ 24" OC and it was marginally cheaper... fewer studs. A lot easier to drill horizontally for wire or pipe. Somewhat more insulation and somewhat less thermal bridging. All of the studs and rafters stack. Still required to use 2 top plates and with precut studs you want to anyway. Interior wall precuts are not available here.
You make a better case for needing larger studding because your subs are careless, than you do for the efficiency of 2x6@24"OC.Ever think of educating your subs?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Did we lose the OP? Well, I'm lost too. Can anybody pull this together in one train of thought? It needs to address:
1) 24" o.c. framing for the walls. Using 2x4 and 2x6 studs.
2) The wall height will affect it. (ex. if you're making walls less than 10' high, the IRC allows 2x4 framing at 24" o.c.)
3) The grade of framing lumber you're using. Utility grade means fewer options.
4) What is being supported by the framing? Is it a one story house? Slab on grade? Two story with a basement?
5) Whether or not you put plumbing lines (supply or drains) in exterior walls. This is a matter of convenience/skill level of your trades as well as sheer volume of what all you're putting in those walls. (What if you put no plumbing lines in exterior walls? What if you put them there but where you do you use 2x6 framing?)
6) Whatever else I've left out, but someone smarter than me will factor it in and make some sense of this.
4) What is being supported by the framing? Is it a one story house? Slab on grade? Two story with a basement?
Why does it matter how many stories the house is whether it's 2x4 or 2x6?
Are you asking that because it might effect going 24" centers?
Joe Carola
Edited 9/8/2007 5:12 pm ET by Framer
Yep. Because IRC will let me use 24" o.c. with 2 x 6s when a bearing wall is supporting a roof and ceiling only or if you add another floor to that. But with 2 x 4s when you use 24" o.c. you're limited to supporting the roof and ceiling only; not a second floor. Add that second floor and with 2 x 4s you've got to back down to 16" o.c. All this is okay up to 10 feet stud length. At least that's what I believe. It's different for utility grade.I guess it matters to the OP because it's not just as simple as whether or not it's a good idea. I didn't remember him giving any details about the structure and if he's gonna get anything useful here he needs to know what kinds of things need to be considered. That's to meet code. Whether or not it's a good idea is another matter. I'm sure somebody here can refer him to the right place to learn all about that argument.
Yep. Because IRC will let me use 24" o.c. with 2 x 6s when a bearing wall is supporting a roof and ceiling only or if you add another floor to that. But with 2 x 4s when you use 24" o.c. you're limited to supporting the roof and ceiling only; not a second floor. Add that second floor and with 2 x 4s you've got to back down to 16" o.c.
That's just great. Frame house with 2' centers using 2x4's and then try to add a second or third floor, or even dormers on later. What do you have to do, go back and gut the furst floor and make the studs 16 centers. Brilliant!
If that's the case why even bother framing 2' centers with 2x4's if you can't do anything later. Or do people just say, who cares about later?Joe Carola
Good point. I don't know what the OP plans for later, and that's something he needs to consider.For me, my new house will be my last one. What the heirs or future buyers do with it is up to them. It's all wheelchair accessible, which rules out a second floor (short of an elevator). So, when I build a one-story, slab on grade with no storage in the attic (not needed), there's no later to consider. Framing 2 x 4s at 24" o.c.Other folks, with other situations, need to plan for different possibilities. Anybody who buys this house will have as much space as in the other houses in the neighborhood. It's just all on one level. if they need to add a second story for a bigger house (overbuilt for the area), they need to just buy another house. Not my concern.
Now you have to build so as to anticipate every conceivible future change to the buildign? Come on! Not very practical. Not many people add a second story, and most of the time it is just plain nuts to do so anyway.
But ok. We should build all two story houses with 2 x12 on 8 inch OC in case someone in the future wants to add four man hot tub in the master. And we should . . .
Now you have to build so as to anticipate every conceivible future change to the buildign?
I didn't say every conceivable change. I'm just saying that I've never heard or seen anyone framing walls 2' centers until reading here and other forums, and now finding out that you can't frame two stories with 2x4's @ 24" centers.
Not many people add a second story, and most of the time it is just plain nuts to do so anyway.
Maybe where your from they don't and it's not practical, but where I'm from we do every day around here. I just framed an 1800s/f Add-a-Level.
How can you possibly say that it's nuts to put a second story on a house? So, I guess where your from everyone has big Ranch houses and big pieces of property where they don't need to go up. Around here we have house on small properties and some people have no choice but to go up.
What happens around where your from if someone does have a small Ranch house with two bedrooms and then the people wind up having four kids and can't go out, they don't go up, or have to move?
But ok. We should build all two story houses with 2 x12 on 8 inch OC in case someone in the future wants to add four man hot tub in the master. And we should . . .
Now your being a Goon! Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed????
Joe Carola
Brings up a good point. Second story additions are very popular in our area as well, even if lot size was not a hindrance they may decide to go up for aesthetics and economy. Gets me thinking, what about a single story SIP house that someone might want a second floor on?
John,I have no idea what he's talking about as far as saying that adding a second story is nuts. He's nuts! I'm staring another 1800 s/f one next week. AAL's are done every day around here even if there's a big lot. We make Ranches into two story Colonials or Contemporary..........or anything. Dormers are another thing that's being done every day. I guess where he's from there's only Ranch houses and they're not aloud to make them two stories, who the hell knows......Joe Carola
Edited 9/10/2007 6:54 pm ET by Framer
The cost, man. And if you are insisting on name calling, then I will say.. . The cost, nutjob.
And if you are insisting on name calling, then I will say.. . The cost, nutjob.
When you learn how to frame and get more experience, come back and talk about framing to see if you make a little bit of sense, now wipe away the tears..... DOPEY!
Joe Carola
Framer, you call me Dopey I then call you a moron. As for experience, LOL. More than you likely will ever have. Nice, try.
Framer, you call me Dopey I then call you a moron. As for experience, LOL. More than you likely will ever have. Nice, try.
Not a try, it's a fact that you lack experience. I'm sure you can actually tell yourself that you have more than I'll ever have and believe it. Now go read a beginners Framing book.....DopeyRight!
Joe Carola
Edited 9/18/2007 7:29 pm ET by Framer
Are you in grade school? YOu sure act like it.
Are you in grade school?
No, but your framimg experience is the same as one!!Joe Carola
What a school girl you are. Whaaaa, whaaaa, " I know you are, but what am I". Whaaaaa, What a school girl. ARe you for real? Grow up.
What a school girl you are. Whaaaa, whaaaa, " I know you are, but what am I". Whaaaaa, What a school girl. ARe you for real? Grow up.
Man, that was a good one DopeyRight, I'm still laughing at you. Is that what you say when people string you up by your jock strap. It's a sin for people like you who get picked on. Eat some Popeye spinach!
Joe Carola
I agree with bobtrim. it's time to ignore the troll.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You aren't old enough to have more experience than Framer.
I already had more under my belt by the time you were old enough to lift a hammer than you will ever learn.what with your monthly pizzing contests anyways? not getting any?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
So now who is the name caller? Are you competeing with Framer for who is the bigger school girl of the month. Geez grow up little girl.
lets all let this tread die out
That is the point. You can not build anticipating what someone might or might not do later on the house.
Wel, can't is too strong a word. But you can't conceive of every change someone might make and plan for it.
Now, I have heard of people building a house with say two bedrooms, and planning the design in such a way THAT THEY CAN plan for an easy addition of additional bedrooms. Great idea FOR THOSE individuals, but not because they plan to make THEIR future plans someone else future plan. No one can anticipate what someone else might or might not want.
Just MHO
Agreed. In my 25+ years in the construction industry I have not once come across an addition job that was to add to a house built with 2x4's at 24" o/c. Although I have seen a number of detached garages which used this method and inline framing for roof rafters. The number of houses built with this system is probably miniscule.
Goon? Not any more so than your post. I made the 2 x12 statement which is obviously obsured, but no more so than your original post. The difference being that I was making the obsure statement knowingly.
MtnBoy,
I will give you my .02 . Started framing on 24". oc in the early seventies.
Arkansas Framing Method was the source ( Study done By some college in Ar. about more energy efficient framing.) 2 x 6 Hem/Fir -24" o.c. Standard and better framing lumber, (#2 and better), 3-stud corners, single top plate ( I quit doing that, but if one does then trusses, rafters, joists must be placed "inline" ) 2 x 12 headers with foam to furr them out, or headers placed in plane with the second floor in 2 stories. Sometimes used 1" rigid foam over 1/2 sheathing on ext.. Standard wall height for 8' 1 1/4 " wall ( 92 5/8 precuts , 4 5/8 for 3 plates)
I can go 2 stories here with that as a standard , no problem. We used to notch the bottom of the studs to create a "raceway" for wiring , helped keep the insulation in one piece in each stud bay. Took a little time but sped things up for electricians and insulators. Used 5/8 rock on walls sometimes, a hassle because of jamb depth sometimes. My opinion is it is not needed for flat walls or strength, crowning studs is more important for the "flat". I avoid exterior wall plumbing wherever possible, I just consider it an unwise thing to do."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Edited 9/8/2007 7:54 pm by dovetail97128
Thanks for your response. I'm thinking about the wallboard issue, which seems to just throw everybody.I am planning to build in Georgia using 2 x 4 framing, 24' o.c., with Icynene insulation in walls and up under the roof sheathing. One story, 9 ft. high walls, brick veneer, slab on grade, roof trusses, 1/2" drywall. I hope the thing stands up and the walls don't wave and it's warm/cool in the right season, and so forth.This POS big productions builder special I've been in for 18 years with its paper mache siding, pressed wood garage doors, single pane windows, way-under-insulated cathedral ceiling areas, etc., is still standing. I couldn't do much worse, but I hope I'm doing better.
Mtnboy, IMO one of the best tips out of the Arkansas Method , and the one that is ignored the most , is using a notch at the bottom of the studs in the exterior walls as a chase or raceway for electrical wiring. I have done it and it really does help help immensely with keeping the wall cavity open for insulation of any type. Doesn't take all that long to do especially given the long term benefits."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Well, that sounds like a good idea. I'm sure some electrician won't like it, but I don't know what the argument will be.
You might be surprised. Point out the labor savings he has by not having to drill as many studs. I just let him keep the money over his standard labor quote and told him that up front. He bit."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Very smart of you. I like it. Thanks!
You can "gang cut" the notches simply by stacking the studs up on horses and running a saw down thru the stacks with the blade set to a 45 deg. bevel. I got to using a 3 hp. router with a 3/4" bit and several passes though myself,used a simple guide jig and the same stacking technique."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
IMO one of the best tips out of the Arkansas Method , and the one that is ignored the most , is using a notch at the bottom of the studs in the exterior walls as a chase or raceway for electrical wiring.
I'm just now catching up on this thread, but your post got my attention. For the past 25 years or so, I've felt relatively safe drilling up from basements into stud walls to install voice/data/video cabling. I would think that the likelihood of future damage would be *much* greater with electrical wiring at the bottom of the wall.
Bob
Bob,That's a really good point. Think of the next guy when you can.I built my Colorado house in the early 1980's with 2x6 @ 24" centers. The interior walls were 2x4 at 16" except for one wet wall that held all the plumbing for the house, and was 2x8 plates with 2x4 flat studs. Not something I'd do again, but it made the horizontal drains easy to run. I don't like the plenum it created, but inspector had no issues with it.16" centers make for a much friendlier situation for hanging shelves and cabinets.Bill
OK, OK, OK. People say 1/2 inch drywall will wave on 24" centeres. Maybe, but why? If you have #### studs, some bowed in some bowed out or some bowed more or less than the one nest to it, you are going to ahve wavy drywall whether on 24 OC or 16 OC, but it would be worse on 16 OC. IF you have good studs, it MAKES NO LOGICAL SENSE for drywall to bow in or out between studs. Gravity works in the vertical, NO?
If people insist that it does wave, OK, but it makes no logical sense.
DoRight & MtnBoy
I don't see many 24 inch oc walls, at least none with 1/2" GB...so I can not speak to the walls
I have seen wavy ceilings when 1/2" gyp bd. was on trusses 24 oc. and these were probably not wavy trusses.
probably that gravity thing. If you take the advanced framing concept all the way and eliminate a top plate then you will be talkin 24 oc for the joists above. I would use 5/8 for the ceiling based on what I have seen. Has anyone seen Wavy Gypbd. on 24inch center wall..I am curious
There seem to be some practical reasons for not eliminating that second top plate and myself I believe I don't want it eliminated in mine. I'll be happy to limit my venture into Advanced Framing to the walls. But if my G.C. wants to discuss the rest, he'll need to do his own research as to 5/8" drywall ceilings. I think ceilings are trickier and, like you said, more prone to the effects of gravity!BTW, what's your approach to preventing drywall opening up? And do you like drywall clips in the corners? I know nothing about it, but it does make some sense to me that the more you let the drywall "float" rather than adhere it to the framing, the less it's gonna show the effects of settling.
MntnBoy,can't answer your drywall question..I think FHB did a good article on drywall a while back...and I just came across one at the JLC archives..
thanks. I'll check my paper files, the mosey on over to jlc. I did find my JLC Field Guide's take on the drywall thickness. They recommend, for sidewalls, if using 1/2", you can use any spacing up to 24" o.c., and run it either parallel or perpendicular (its long edge relative to the framing members). UNLESS you're gonna use a water-based texturing over it. Then, they recommend that you not apply the drywall parallel if you're framing is spaced at 16".For 5/8" drywall on sidewalls, apply it either parallel or perpendicular with framing spaced up to 24". No mention of any consideration for texturing over it.For ceilings, if you're using 1/2" drywall, you can space your framing up to 24" o.c.if you're gonna run it perpendicular. If you wanna run 1/2" dywall parallel, you need to limit the framing to 16" o.c. (and don't use water-based texturing).For ceilings where you're using 5/8" drywall, they recommend perpendicular application only, and you can go up to 24" o.c. with the framing. (There's a different set of guidelines for ceiling board as opposed to gyp. And fire rating is different altogether.)
"Has anyone seen Wavy Gypbd. on 24inch center wall..I am curious"Yes, I have said so several times in this thread. That is one reason this 24"OC method fell out of favour quickly back in the seventies when it was first pushed forward. Too many complaints about wavy walls and the cost to overcome that with thicker sheathing and SR made the supposed savings a net negative.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin, right now I am a 2x4 at 16 oc guy myself
What confuses me is that you and Shelternerd are both very well respected and you have an opposite opinion on this subject. I have never built a wall at 24 o.c. so I can not say. Shelternerd has been doin it(24 oc)for 30 years and no problem.
Did you actually build walls at 24oc or did you just observe walls built by others that may not have built to your standards?
The latter.
I have been called several times to deal with the complaints of homeowners who buy places that were previously framed 24"OC and then they discover the wavy walls that bug the snot out of them and worry, "What in the world can we do about this?!"
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin, There are 2 motives for building at 24 inches o.c.
One is to use less lumber to be cheap and one is to use less lumber to save trees and maybe (I did say maybe) improve thermal performance.
Is it possible that the walls you observed were built by the former and more than likely they also used cheap unskilled labor?
No. They were professional framers who did decent work. I knew them.The builder was just enamored of the idea of increasing his thermal efficiency at no cost.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Shelternerd has some high standards as well. I believe he is one who uses the thicker SR to deal with the problem. I can't recall for sure. I am not arguing with him personally, I am simply stating why I believe it is better to go 16" OC with alternative insulation to get the same R-value.if somebody wants to feel special about owning a 2x6 wall frame assembly, that doesn't bother me. I just don't think they should do it based on false economy.Some people will spend a dollar top save a dime.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Hi guys. I've not had a problem with sheet rock bowing out between the studs in the thirty years we've been framing this way. We do crown our studs out, and we face staple when we use fiberglass but there was a time when we used unfaced with poly and there were times when we used 2x6's 16" OC so the reality is that we've done a fair amount of experimenting over the years. Now we spray 5" of un-shaved open cell (depending on the temp of the day and the skill of the operator, we do have to shave a little foam) and for the added money to go from 3" to 5" ($500 on the last house, $1,000 on the house before that) I don't really sweat whether it is a waste of money. Bottom line is that it's tightening the house up, making it stiff and storm worthy and making the customers feel that they got a good deal and a superior home for their money. I think it boils down to regional preference to a certain extent. I'm building a shingled craftsman style house and the deep window sills are part of the aesthetic. If I were building for Habitat I'd probably go with what John is recommending with the 2x4's and external EPS insulation. But if I were building in the north I would worry about dew point and condensation on the back of the foam and I'd probably be doing spray foam in 2x6 walls like I am here in NC. My bottom line is I'm building a high end product and my customers are comparing HERS ratings and driving Priuses and "into Bio-diesel" (don't get me started) and it's worth it to them to blow an extra grand or two (or thirty) on a super insulated not-so-big house with a pole barn and rain garden in the yard and solar panels on the roof. Works for me, is it the best bang for the buck? maybe in some climates maybe not in others. It makes a tight, stout, hurricane resistant house, and it looks nice. ------------------"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Edited 9/10/2007 8:51 pm ET by ShelterNerd
Michael,
You must be doing something different than Piffin's friends. How do you build walls at 24oc and avoid the wavy 1/2" gyp bd? Are you laying the drywall perpendicular and his friends not? Do you build your interior walls at 24 oc? This is a mystery
Is the drywall better in North Carolina?
John
He did say that most of his were foamed, not the FG batts used back in the seventies.SR should be hung horizontally. just the ametures run it verticaly.;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
<<You must be doing something different than Piffin's friends. How do you build walls at 24oc and avoid the wavy 1/2" gyp bd? Are you laying the drywall perpendicular and his friends not? Do you build your interior walls at 24 oc? This is a mystery Is the drywall better in North Carolina?>>
EVERYTHING is better in North Carolina. (especially the music and the women)
But no I would suspect that there are other reasons that Piffen had to go back on that drywall. First likelyhood is edge stapled rather than face stapled batts. Second might be humidity, he's up in New England where people often don't use AC. We're in NC where you can't really avoid it or your clothes will rot in your closet. I'm sure the jobs he did the repair on had the sheetrock run perpendicular to studs and joists.
We've only been using spray foam for the last year and a half or so. before that it was energy star style fiberglass. But most folks don't like to face staple and that means the rock is tighter to the studs and has little back pressure from the insulation adjacent to the stud and more in the center of the span, these factors could easily add up to the problems he witnessed especially if the humidity level were high in the summer in a cool but humit new england home that would "relax" the drywall.
Beyond that it's just one of those mysteries. I would never recomend 1/2" drywall on a ceiling that was framed 24" OC. we've always used 5/8 for that.
By the way we just posted a new page on the website of a house we just finished this spring, no prize-winner but my web guy did a real nice job on the lay-out and links.
http://www.chandlerdesignbuild.com/indexFull.php?id=berryResidence&t=The%20Berry%20Residence
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Edited 9/10/2007 10:03 pm ET by ShelterNerd
what about your interior walls? do you ever go 24 oc?
No never have gone 24" oc on a 2x4 wall and I rarely need to go 2x6 for plumbing walls because I'm the plumber.
m------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Nice Web site and Project..I especially like the absence of a garage. I have been beating on my clients to detach or eliminate the garage. I have only talked 2 into it so far. The attached garage was the downfall of residential Architecture.
<<I have been beating on my clients to detach or eliminate the garage. I have only talked 2 into it so far. The attached garage was the downfall of residential Architecture.>>
Thanks, Glad you liked it.
I have somewhere a report on Benzene intrusion into homes from attached garages, six months to hazardous levels. But the main success I've had is to sell the detached garage with the garden shed and storage loft as a way to create an entry courtyard. Since pole barns are such an inherently cool way to build and so in-expensive I've had great luck selling them as an add-on to a smaller more quality intensive per square foot home. Also a nice phase two type project.
First time I ever used ipe lumber to make cabinets out of. too bad the photo was so dark, that master bath cab is way cool. I shot that with my little construction camera, normally I would have gotten a pro but too much of a hurry this time.
Check out the LEED-H NAHB Green comparison some time, I think you will see that the NAHB Green gives builders a lot more flexibility.
------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Back when I was seeing those problems I was in Colorado, but same principles heat-wise. It was mostly backpressure from the FG batts and face stapled kraft
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Back when I was seeing those problems I was in Colorado, but same principles heat-wise.
It was mostly backpressure from the FG batts and face stapled kraft
Piffin, After going thru this thread....Will you concede that there may be a place for 24 oc IF all things are considered? Good framing,insulation and drywall technique,decent lumber,and IRC code compliance.
We must also consider the exterior material. I still don't think Fiber cement plank will work with 24oc...it is too floppy
certainly! I don't have a problem with framing 24" oc when provisions are made for the deficits it creates in other areas.The problem I have is with those who claim tremendous savings in cost. It just doesn't happen without giving up some quality. Other than that, it is just two different ways to build.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Home, FWIW, I also have done 2 x 6 @ 24" O.C. for close to 30 years. As opposed to 2x4 @1 6" O. C. the cost increase for materials amounts to buying one 2 x 2 all the way around the perimeter of the building. Care in picking studs takes care of 90- % of the bows and waviness. To Each there own . But it is a very standard and common way to build out here in Oregon."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Dovetail,
thanks for the input. Do you fully sheath your homes with OSB or plywood?
do you ever frame interior walls(2x4 or 2x6) at 24 oc. ? If not then why not?
homedesign,
Yes, we fully sheath all homes . I have done interiors at 24 " , but it is not my general practice. I had no problem with it other than it took some more time to think things thru in terms of blocking, backing etc. Be surprised how that one extra stud in a wall can make a difference."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
"the cost increase for materials amounts to buying one 2 x 2 all the way around the perimeter of the building."See there! so many proponents claim cost SAVINGS of 30-35% but you actually do this and find that it results in an increase. When I ran numbers for comparison on a couple houses, it was +/- 5%.That is a large part of my emphasis. Each build should run the numbers to know and not just take some magazine article at face face and assume those claims are good to go with.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin,
I need to clarify that statement. The 2 x 2 was referencing only the increase in framing lumber costs.
Does not include added costs for more insulation , window , door extensions etc."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Just consider teh soource.
homedesign,
You say, "What confuses me is that you and Shelternerd are both very well respected and you have an opposite opinion on this subject."
What? Opinions? And different ones at that? How can this be? With the mena and nasty arrogant posters here, that must mean that one is an idiot ant the other a genius. NO, it just means that you have two different opinions, and I might have a different one. But alas, people on these boards are just too arrogant to be kind about it.
Pretty sad and pathetic, particular for those involved and those that must live with them.
Houses are not built out of logic, they are built out of materials."studs, some bowed in some bowed out or some bowed more or less than the one nest to it,"I don't know how much you know about framing, but when we build walls, we always crown the studs out.
So you do not get one in and one out.
And if one is extreme it gets used for cripples, not studding.
Any framer I ever worked with does the same.
So most of the problems you imagine would never happen with a proficient framing carpenter.Then when you fill the voids with insulation, unless it is sprayed foam, ( which would be a waste at 5.5" thick in a wall) That insulation material places some pressure on the sheetrock. So the SR waves from tight to the stud where it is fastened to bulging into the room between studs, back to tight to stud at the next one, etc.It's perfectly logical to me.And it is reality too.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You have actually seen drywall on walls pushed out by the insulation?
You need to find a better sub.
Bobtim, these people with fabricate many myths to bolster a case whch they attempt to make with zero merit. Get used to it.
"I don't know how much you know about framing, but when we build walls, we always crown the studs out."
Your grasp of the obvious is astounding.
"Your grasp of the obvious is astounding."Like I see how obvious it is that you must be a really miserable person to work around.The reason I pointed that out is that it is the proof that your earlier statement is wrong. When you frame right, it is right, Doright, so the walls do not wave in and out on every other stud.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Piffin, Like I said crowning studs is obvious. Did it take you years to figure that out, and are therefore proud of yourself for finally figuring that out, and thus felt the need to post it here? Just asking.
If I sound a bit needling perhaps you should read your own arrogance and belittling post.
"We used to notch the bottom of the studs to create a "raceway" for wiring , helped keep the insulation in one piece in each stud bay. Took a little time but sped things up for electricians and insulators."
Interesting idea, but a bit of work. Secondly, don't you then need to use steel cover plates over the wire so as to avoid drywall nails and or baseboard nails?
1 1/2 wide cut centered on a 2 x 6 and there is no problem"Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
So you still end up with a "hole" in the stub, all be it square? So your notch is in the center of the bottom end of teh 2 x 6? I was thinking you were notching an outside edge off the 2x6.
""So your notch is in the center of the bottom end of teh 2 x 6? "" That is correct. I have also done a an inverted "V" , simply ran the skil saw blade across the bottom of the studs to create a "V".
I didn't like the "V: as much because it looked as if it would create a "splitting" point in the stud."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca