Hi- I’m new to the forums and have really appreciated the posts and replies I’ve read so far. We recently purchased a home built in 1910. The previous owner considered himself “handy” but as we are discovering he was fooling himself. Kind of a long story but here it goes:
Second story bathroom was “remodeled” a few years ago. A 2 piece plastic shower unit was installed. No real support under the shower pan so of course it cracked and water leaked down into the ceiling of one of the 1st floor rooms. Fine- we knew we had to redo that room anyway- this just advanced the schedule by a few months. We tore out the old flooring and the ceiling and insulation in the 1st story room. Like every other project I’ve taken on in regard to the house in the last 10 months I uncovered a whole list of new issues that I need some advice on. I don’t want to even start on the other surprises we’ve found (like how the PO removed a floor joist and left no support under the sub floor in a certain area). I don’t like to bitch about stuff I just want to do it right.
First, when the PO installed the tub in the 2nd story bath they made huge holes in the floor of the bathroom to run plumbing. In doing this they really destroyed the subfloor and attempted to sister onto the floor joists to help support the load above. As you can see in the pictures the bathroom floor is a concrete base. Notice the particle board (yes- particle board) under the tub (I assume that was done for leveling purposes. The sistering was done with 1x treated in one spot and 2×2 pine was added to the bottom of the floor joists to lower the celing in the room under the bath due to the plumbing extending lower than the original ceiling. Second, when they cut through the floor joists to run plumbing and electrical they drilled through the bottom of the joists instead of the center. I’m afraid that tub and the occupant are going to end up in the basement if it gets filled with water.
Questions
(1) I assume I may as well go ahead and tear out the tub and shower and repair the subfloor while I have the ceiling open. We were planning on doing an acrylic clawfoot slipper tub and enlarging the shower anyway- just thought the bathroom would be the last major project since it is functional as is for us as a family right now.
(2) Should I tear out all of the concrete in the second story bath or just the section where the subfloor is bad? I’m thinking that I need to tear out all of the concrete to properly repair/sister the floor joists which have been compromised by the poor drilling spot choices.
(3) Is there a good way to make these repairs from below? I’m assuming there is not but I’m open to the sound advice and wisdom of the forum.
(4) Am i over-reacting?
Replies
Just looking real quick it is a problem I would consider leaving the joist in place and centering new ones between, may have to do some jacking to get in place if bowed. This makes the concrete a problem, it is not helping. With it and a tub of water and person or two the joist probably have a bow. Plus if you jack up to get new joists in the concrete will probably crack.
But after you get the concrete out the sub floor my not be up to par either don't know that till you get there.
The shower is not trapped right also. Looks like you will be tearing out the concrete, new joist
sized right, and new plumbing go for it do it right.
You don't say what the span is bearing to bearing is it all in one room on first level or is another ceiling involved in another room?
Wallyo
Thanks for the reply wallyoThe joists span from the exterior wall to an interior bearing wall and the distance is about 11'-12'. All in one room thankfully. The bathroom is the almost same size s the room below- a few feet shorter due to a 2nd floor hallway running along the bath.I'm all about doing it right and if it means I should tear it all out I will. Wouldn't be the first time in this house!I'm thinking it may be easier to do it while the ceiling is out of the lower level room especially since I think most of the plumbing in the bath room needs to be reworked anyway.
I'd have to know some things like size of joist ( ? 2x8?) and the length of them ( span) and whether they are sagging now - and how much.
Also if the 2x2s slapped on bottom are just nailed or glued to them and if there is sign of stress movement in that joint.
I have seen worse without failures, but generaly on what I think is shorter spans.
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Thanks for the reply PiffinI'm not at home right now so I can get the measurements a bit later. I'm pretty sure they are 2x8 - good old doug fir. I feel sorry for the drill that tried to make those holes...
WHY is that ceement there anyway?
Pete,
It's my understanding that years ago it wasn't uncommon for a bathtub to be set in a mud/concrete bed.
Never was explianed to me why. Maybe someone here with more "experience" (read: older) can shed some light.The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
That seems like more than a bed. It's about 3 to 4" thick! And the plumbing appears to have been installed after the ceement was chiseled to make a path.
That sounds right. The 3-4 inches was to keep the weak-azz steel (not cast-iron) tub from bellying down with the weight of the water. For some reason, the bottom of the tubs were molded shy of the sub-floor with the understanding that they would be mud-set.
Can't you hear that plumber cussing those damn sloppy carps. as he bores through with a star drill and 3lb hammer.The best reward for a job well done is the opportunity to do another.
I had to to do that once per mfgs instructions for a fiberglass corner whirlpool tub...lay a thick bed of mud to plop it down in to support the bottom of the flimsy tub.STeve
Just picked up a fiberglass shower today that needs a good 2 1/2" of mortar to level it. All the rest I've installed had built in blocking but this one only has it at the front. The instructions say to use mortar or blocking, but the base is so irregular I don't know how you would begin to use wood.
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I think that I would tear out all the concrete if any of it had to come out. Probably a tile mud bed and will be a bear to remove. But by doing so you could take care of any unseen sub-floor issues and would be left with a uniform and consistent base for your new floor.
Are you going to rearrange the layout of the bath while you have this perfect opportunity.
I'll leave the span questions to the master Sir Piffin.
jmhug.
Is/was there ceramic tile in that bath. From below, looks like there's a ledger on each side of each joist (dropped down from the top of the joist a couple inches). From there they laid 1x across, in between each joist-dropped down a bit from the top of the joist. Usually in our area they then hacked a champfer along the top of each joist. Then a concrete layer was added on top and tile laid to that. Depending on what you are using as a finished floor, you may not have to tear up the concrete (which isn't easy). If you're concerned about weight, then have at it. If it'll take to much screwing around to give you a good base, have at it.
If I'm correct in this, your joists will be bigger than what appears from the bottom.
Best of luck.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Calvins right, see how the cross bridging extends above the subfloor.
I understand the method used to install the 1X. Doesn't increase the strength of the subfloor--if anything it makes it weaker. From a strength standpoint would you prefer: 1) Subfloor fitted to joist bays and nailed to ledgers which are nailed to joists or 2) a one piece subfloor on top of the joists-glued & screwed?. Option 2 wins everytime--ask an engineer. I pointed out the weakest subfloor through the strongest due to the weight of the concrete.The strongest subfloor is of little value if it is supported by undersized joists, joists made of weak lumber or joists that have been compromised by drilling holes or oversized notching. Thats where the strengthening of the joists comes in. That appears to be the case here.
A flitch plate (example: a plate of steel bolted between two joists) could be installed with matching notches/holes and compensate for the weakened joist/s. If the rest of the 2nd floor bath construction (I already commented on that) lets the HO sleep well at night--keep it.I have spent most of my career remodeling (not "slapping" together) what many refer to as the "good old days of construction". They were not and this case is an example when a previous HO mucks things up. It's not fun or cheap to repair. Tyr
OK, I'm respectfully submitting this for your review. If the tile floor isn't cracked and the joists are in good shape/or can be repaired or reinforced, is there still a reason to tear it out so that you can put down a couple layers of plywood so we get the best quality subfloor?
Old work that's held up shouldn't be discarded because of modern techniques. New isn't necessarily better. There's plenty of code approved pcs of #### that won't make 50 years if given the opportunity.
Each remodel is different, no?A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I wrote up a nice long reply that flew off into cyberspace. Short reply--I agree--sort off. Here's a pic of how to beef up the joists from a FHB Book. I've used it. Tyr
Edited 1/15/2008 1:56 am by Tyr
I'd tear out the concrete so you can put in a solid floor. The good news is when you take out the concrete you will lower the floor so much that you will have plenty of height to build a good solid floor wall to wall.
That trap in the middle of the waste line looks a bit odd.
Thanks everyone for your input I really appreciate it.I did some more exploring today in the actual bathroom and from below.
The joists are 2x10 and span about 15 ft. The concrete bed is about 4" deep in the entire bathroom which measures approx. 9'x9'. That is about a cubic yard of concrete which is at least a couple thousand pounds of weight. At this point I don't see much if any sag in the floor joists.The bathroom does have a tile floor (1" hexagonal tiles) which I would like to keep but I'm more worried about the weight and where they drilled holes in the floor joists than I am about saving the tiles. Also I disassembled part of the vanity and noticed they had done some severe damage to the tile floor under it-it probably needs to be replaced.We will be reworking the bathroom- bigger shower (tiled- kerdi system - slipper tub- vanity etc) we just hadn't budgeted for it at this point in time. We were waiting to get the basement bath done so we could shut this one down for a while while it was under construction.Thanks again everyone.
For new joists that size, 15' is a bit overspanned, but those look rough cut full sized, and the added pieces under.If it isn't sagging with all that weight, I would not worry - it is time tested now.If I were going to improve the load bearing there, I would replace the pieces scabbed to joist bottoms one at a time, by use PL premium and nails to fasten full 2x4s laid flat to the bottom of each joist.I forget - what was the question?
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with it all open from below, you have no need to remove the concrete above.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
Definetly replace the slip joints in the drain line for all glued pieces.
Actually are you sure thats not what was leaking in the first place?
PassinYes- I'm 99% sure it was the cracked shower pan. I've been watching for water since I sealed the pan crack and there hasn't been any moisture at all. Luckily my neighbor is a plumber so I will have him come and take a look. It only costs a couple of beers for some good advice from him.PiffinThanks for the input- those joists are almost 100 yrs old and I don't think they were tinkered with until recently. The PO was only in the house for about 6 years before we bought it and was very proud of his "upgrades" when we looked at the house. Needless to say I've spent a lot of time undoing some of the upgrades...We're just about to put a substantial amount of money and work into the room below the bath as well as an adjoining room so I thought I better get some advice on whether I should avoid any potential issues now while the ceiling is out. Thanks again to everyone!
I've seen this type of work repeatedly. Compared to others it really doesn't look that bad. Been wondering about that concrete on 1X's. Once you start this stuff it never seems to end. You probably don't have a clean-out on the second floor and that makes me wonder about placement and size of vent or reventing.An EE (electrical engineer) started to finish his basement and merrily bored through joists to run his wiring. You could probably fletch plate the joists but now would be the time to demo the whole 2nd floor bath floor, pull the 1X's (they don't appear to be even angled--probably were used to form the foundation).1X's nailed at ninety degrees to joists are the weakest subfloor, then 1X's angled (these were usually wet from foundation concrete and concrete stained for life), ultimately the strongest was T&G 3.4" plywood, glued and ringshank nailed (or screwed). Particle board has little strength on its own so was always installed after the subfloor as a way to match up the level where sheet vinyl flooring was used to hardwood flooring (usually 3/4"). It could be primed before vinyl install to give it some ability to repel water.Use your neighbor to review the DWV. Once you are satisfied with the joist strength issue use blocking and Simpson Strong Ties to tie those joist together under any tub to distribute the load.After this you will get licensed, appreciate the value of inspections, and be in high demand on your "off" days by the neighbors. Good luck, Thor
His boards are nailed between the joists, into and on top of ledger strips. This house is old. They used this method to set ceramic tile. By dropping much of it below the top of the joists they didn't end up an inch and a half above the adjacent finished floor. If he likes the tile, is confident on the strength of the frame, and can do the plumbing work from below, why go to the trouble of tearing it all out?A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/