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2×4 knee wall on top of 2×6 LB wall?

Nuke | Posted in Construction Techniques on December 26, 2005 05:13am

One of the things that has always bewildered me was why the builder built an 8′ tall 2×6 load-bearing wall around the perimeter of the house and for several interior load-bearing walls in the basement, and then built some 9-10″ tall knee walls framed with 2×4 to sit on top of these load-bearing walls.

I live in a two-story home with a walk-out basement. I presumed the 2×6 framing was necessary to carry the loads from the two floors above. So, why build 2×4 knee walls 9-10″ tall instead of reframe the 2×6 walls? Even if they really did not want to reframe the in-place 2×6 walls I wonder why not simply frame 2×6 knee walls.

Any enlightenment would be great, here. Is it that the knee wall if so short that 2×4 framing could be gotten away with as stud deflection is pretty much eleminated?

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  1. Piffin | Dec 26, 2005 06:55pm | #1

    maybe the silly HO changd mind and wanyrd a taller room afyter the 2x6 walls were built and the builder had a whole pile of shorts already

     

     

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    1. User avater
      Nuke | Dec 26, 2005 10:54pm | #10

      maybe the silly HO changd mind and wanyrd a taller room afyter the 2x6 walls were built and the builder had a whole pile of shorts already

      Piff, I am not sure where your response comes from. I am in a track house, and all of the houses have 8'9" poured concrete walls on their earthen-side of the basements, 8' tall 2x6 walls, and 9" tall 2x4 knee walls. This was evident in +15 homes well before anyone potential buyer contracted into them. I similar wierdness is seen on the second floor where only the bedrooms have 9' ceilings, and the foyer, bathrooms, and closets are 8'.

      The phase 2 houses are all straight 9' tall from their basements through their second floors. I originally interpreted the wierdness as a builder's decision being made mid-stroke on the second floor (decided on 9' rooms instead of the 8' found in all the ntry-level track homes nearby. But the basement was truly confusing since the poured concrete walls were poured taller than the studded walls.

      1. Piffin | Dec 27, 2005 12:18am | #11

        "Piff, I am not sure where your response comes from. "It comes from your request fro speculation on why something this silly would have been done. All the other stuff you mention as being evident was only evident to you. and not mentioned in you first post. Now that ther eis more infgo, I'll change my speculation - The investor had a dummy who ordered up all the material without studying the plans. They finally caught up to the fact, fired him and ordered according to the frame contractor's request 

         

        Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

        1. User avater
          Nuke | Dec 27, 2005 05:47am | #12

          Yeah, I am more inclined to believe that the builder and his super (at the time) were really inexperienced. They were a subsidiary of a bank, which dump the construction company after five years. I can see why.

  2. User avater
    dieselpig | Dec 26, 2005 07:17pm | #2

    Hmmm, when I see or hear about some odd framing like that I tend to think that the reason for the unconventional approach has more to do with the human factor than with the actual building it's in.

    What I mean is that if you're looking for a nuts and bolts explaination for something like that you will probably never find it.  "Oh, it's done that way when XX is bearing on YY and there's a ZZ load above".  

    The explaination probably has something to do with a last minute change order like Piffin suggested, or an inexperienced contractor or even H/O doing some "remodeling". 

    But then again..... I've seen things that I just can't imagine a logical explaination for no matter how hard I try.  I'm sorry I can't offer something more tangible, but I'll be surprised if anybody else can without knowing more about the building and who built it.

  3. User avater
    BossHog | Dec 26, 2005 07:24pm | #3

    Wall sizes always puzzle me too.

    How much can a 2X4 wall carry? I've never heard a reasonable answer to that one.

    I doubt that many walls are framed out of 2X6 lumber out of necessity. Around here basement walk-out walls are generally framed with 2X6 jst because that's the way everybody does it. No one seems to know why.

    But virtually every 2 story house I see is framed with 2X4s on the first floor. So what's the difference?

    I doubt that the strength of the walls is a big issue. SPF stud grade lumber can handly somehting like 400 PSI of pressure. (Don't remember offhand) You're not going to exceed that in most residential applications.

    The only real strength issue is if the studs could buckle sideways. But if you attach wall sheathing on the outside that's not a concern - The studs are well braced against buckling.

    So basically I don't think it's a big deal either way.

    Love is a temporary insanity, curable by marriage.
    1. User avater
      dieselpig | Dec 26, 2005 07:32pm | #4

      I agree Boss.  Around here we frame walk-out basement and anything else with two floors above with 2x6.  I highly doubt that 2x4 framing couldn't handle the load, but like you said, it's just the way everyone does it.

      When I see 2x6 wall framing it's always being used for the additional insulation space it provides.

      1. Bing187 | Dec 26, 2005 09:13pm | #9

        Every town in SE mass that I've framed in (and a few over the border in RI ) requires a 2x6 wall for anything over two stories . This applies generally to walk outs (they only require 2x6 in the bottom floor) but I've actually had an insp require it on a straight up colonial with living space in the attic"3rd floor". Wasn't overseeing the whole job, was just framing that one so.....not my place to argue. I think it is in MA state building code, thoug as far as walkouts are concerned     

                  I must be missing something in this deal, though. I know the code specifically prohibits knee walls with studs less than 14" long. (No, I don't know why either) and if the floor joists are on the top of a 10" wall that's on top of an 8' wall; what keeps the wall straight at the 8' point. I have a feeling that I'm reading something wrong here.

        Happy New Year

    2. Piffin | Dec 26, 2005 07:44pm | #5

      LOL, I know a guy who will decide what thicness each wall is according to what was easiest to steal that week! 

       

      Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

  4. Framer | Dec 26, 2005 07:50pm | #6

    I don't understand what you're saying here. Do your floor joists sit on top of the 2x6 wall top plate? Or are they sitting on top of the 9" - 10" 2x4 kneewall top plate?

    Joe Carola
  5. saran_d | Dec 26, 2005 08:14pm | #7

    I would Frame it that way initially so that the Square Feet of the House will be maintained low for the inspection Records as this will Dictate the amount of Property Tax to be Paid. After all the settling down Your remodeling for the additional Loft will be easy. The 9-10" you are saying will be the The Floor Joist Height with the 3/4 Plywood. I am assuming that the Ceilings are Cathedral  or Vaulted in order to achieve this. So the additional Loft space acquired is not included Living space. It takes a lot of planning to achieve this. Look around you might find extra electrical wires runned or even extra plumbing.



    Edited 12/26/2005 12:17 pm ET by saran_d

    1. Piffin | Dec 26, 2005 08:28pm | #8

      doesn't make much sense to do $300 of work to save $200 of tax - if they tax by volumn. Most go by sq ft, and they will find out sooner or later anyway...besides that what you advocate is called fraud - not a good way to get ahead in life., unless I totally misunderstand whay you meant 

       

      Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

      1. saran_d | Dec 27, 2005 11:30am | #14

        You call it Fraud. I call it planning ahead. As you start to build your first home you may not have enough finances to finish the project and get tied up with the bank. You plan as you go. When you first get married its just you and your wife. As you have kids and they grow older you might spend some more money on the Attic/Loft. So you dont really need to call contractors and waste money on Demolition and Haul the Debris. This way you just order the TJP/2x12 and span the joist. Add the sub floor and run all electrical., Sheetrock/ Mud and Paint. Then you go to the property Tax places and tell them you have increased your Living space by 800 sq feet and pay what is due. You call it Fraud. I call it foolish

        1. Piffin | Dec 28, 2005 04:12am | #15

          "You call it Fraud. I call it planning ahead.....
          ....You call it Fraud. I call it foolish"so which is it? foolish or planning ahead?I apparantly still don't have a clue what you are getting at. sorry 

           

          Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!

          1. User avater
            Nuke | Dec 28, 2005 05:14am | #16

            To add further complexity to whatever was going on when my home was under construction, the basement floor is still native and still visible are the 3x snapped chalk lines for some 2x6 walls to run along side (no gap) of the poured concrete walls. Sometimes I have to wonder what was going through a lot of their minds then.

            I still think its a combination of the spue not supe-ing the subs, and the builder changing their minds mid-stroke. I do find a lot of the responses interesting, though.

  6. User avater
    Soultrain | Dec 27, 2005 06:11am | #13

    What is the spacing on the 2x4 knee wall vs the 2x6 wall?

    Many times 2x6 walls are desireable for insulation purposes & are space 24" OC vs 16" OC for 2x4.  Both should have the same load bearing capacity since theboth have the same amount of wood.

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