Here in SW Alabama my framing crew recieves two different types of precut 2×4 studs. The first are imported SPF that look like debarked saplings; i.e., wane on every piece, decay in some of them, large, oozing pitch pockets, etc.—they really look like econo studs. The second type is also SPF (I believe), but are of much better quality: no wane, smoother faces and slightly rounded edges, no decayed pieces–these are nice enough to be used for woodworking projects, and are stamped simply “No. 2” instead of “STUD”. Does anyone else have this kind of discrepancy between pallets of studs in their area, and are the former really suitable for residential framing? And one more thing: What does “HT” mean as a lumber stamp? Thanks in advance.
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The problem with studs and most common 2X framing lumber is that it's a commodity and the quality is theoretically determined by the grading rules.
Lumber yards typically buy through a broker so what comes to the yard may vary from time to time because the broker may source from a bunch of different mills and individual mills can be unique.
For example, one small-log mill may very well be cutting from really small, young, plantation trees, run them through a chipping profiler, then a twin bandsaw or gangsaw...all the while a crooked little log may be held straight by pressrolls or an "alligator chain" after which it recovers its original mishape until it's pressed into straightness again in unit form and strapped tight.
Another mill may be cutting larger diameter timber and recovering a more stable heartwood from the center of the log for construction grade.
Either mill may be sourcing their logs from slower growing timber, with tighter growth rings and more inherent strength or from fast growing wood which tends to be weaker and more squirrely when it dries.
I suggest you do what I do when you can and learn to recognize which mills provide consistently the best product and adhere more closely to the grading rules and try to make your purchases when you see the "good" mill's product in the yard. And watch for tighter grain.
It's a good idea to get familiar with the grading rules, too, because some mills get a little sloppy about their grading. I'm not one bit bashful about sending a crappy unit back and, consequently, the yard guys where I do most of my buying know my expectations and are more attentive to what they send me.
The initials you mentioned on the stamp might be the Mill's I.D.
Here in the West, the stamp has a code # for the mill.
I just got a bunch from the chech republic ( no kidding) and they were nice.
Edited 10/10/2002 9:17:27 PM ET by GEOB21
Specify Fir only, don't settle for spf or "stud" grade.
Wasn't someone complaing on here a while ago about the genetically modified organism called a sprucefirpine? Said they were taking over the forests and crowding out the natural species? Also said the lumber from them wasn't any good either?
This is not a stud, but a 2 x 6 joist .
Is there anything wrong with the quality of the lumber we recieve today?
Dang tootin!
Lumber like this goes back to the lumber yard for a board that has 4 corners.
So whatta ya think?
Should they let the tree grow a few more years before cutting it down?
Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
I LOVE it when I get one that has wane on it, ESPECIALLY when it still has the bark on it. I snap it up, haul it back to the lumber yard, and take it into the owners office and ask if I have to pay more for the rustic look on these?
For some reason the 2 x 6's have abundantly more of this scrap look than any other size, and only in lengths over 8'. It has been that way for at least 3 years around here, and I ask every time I need them what they look like this time. We use them for rafter fills, and over framing of trusses....we switched to 2 x 8's for that reason.
Either let the tree grow or stock up on extra lumber now and sell today's 'quality' in a few years when it gets worse out there.
I think all this twisted lumber will lead to trendy new architectural styles. Just imagine, no more plumbing or leveling! Just like a tract house!
I agree. We probably have logs coming out of the same mills - same owners, anyway.
Lately, I needed some treated 2x10. Went to a supplier I visit occasionally to cover a shortage. I'm one who actually checks sizes with a tape.
The 8' plank was 1½" short. The next one was 1" short. I stopped checking after the 5 or 6th one. It made no difference since I was going to have waste.
Went to the manager and asked him about it. He called the rep. They took back the entire lot and replaced it. Wonder how much the sawmill made in extra profit from the rip-off.At my age, my fingers & knees arrive at work an hour after I do.
Aaron the HandymanVancouver, Canada
On the other hand Pro-Dek, it lies flat and looks straight. I'd use it. enjoy the day, h.
As Notchman basically said, quality varies a lot from one mill to the next. And it can also vary a great deal from one week to the next - The mills might get a bunch of bad logs from one particular area. So some of it is just luck. You can get a good load from a bad mill, and a bad load from a good mill sometimes.
I don't look for any changes anytime soon. There just aren't very many people out there willing to pay for better lumber.
Look at it this way: The contractors/home owners want the cheapest price, so they shop around for the cheapest studs. The lumber yards are under pressure to provide the cheapest lumber possible, so they buy from the mills with the lowest price. The mills are under pressure to move wood, so they buy the cheapest lumber they can, and cull as little as possible.
Why would anyone think a system like that would produce good quality lumber?
Am I the only one who gets no drop down reply to menu?
Never had a problem with SPF, it's what we get here in NC...when I built my own house, all the studs came from Austria, via Lowe's Contractors yard, sent back the small amount of crap with no problem...I've developed a taste for weinersnitzle, strange, huh? It's okay, I can fix it!
>> Am I the only one who gets no drop down reply to menu?
Are you using the basic view or the advanced view?
No difference up here from what you're describing and that's why we hand-pick every stick at the yard. Problem lumber only compounds problems every step of the way and our clients pay us for the time it takes us to sort the lumber. Since we work time and materials, they save money paying us to sort it. It's a win/win situation. Yeah, it's a hassle and a growing hassle at that, but alot less hassle than trying to build something straight with crooked, barky, demented lumber.
Just curious on the going prices of retail 2x4 in your areas.
Locally Vancouver Island, SPF going 2.30 Cdn per 8' (1.52 US), 5.80 per 16' (3.83 US), better if you buy more than one.
I've been around people who do what you're saying - Pick through all the lumber - And I think that's wrong.
What's the lumberyard supposed to do with the rest of the lumber? Or do you not care, as long as they sell it to someone else?The main reason Santa is so jolly is because he knows where all the bad girls live.
Around here (Michigan) my local lumber yard (a very large independent yard) allows you to reject a few pieces coming off the stack but you can't pick through the pile. We're also working on a summer cottage up in Canada where all of the customers expect to pick through the pile and they even asign a yard man to help you. Not sure which is the better practice. I asked my yard man in Canada if the 2x4s were kiln-dried. He laughed and said that he would venture to guess they were growing last Tuesday. They went up ok. Just hope they dry out by next summer when we begin interior work.
Boss,
Sorry to her you feel that way, but the facts of the matter are that the yards we deal with here have never had a problem whatsoever with us sorting the lumber. As a matter of fact, they've told us that they'd rather we do that than sort it on the site and then call for a truck to come pick up the culls which is what many builders here do. That they tell us is a problem for them, not sorting it in the yard.
The yards here take up the problem of poor lumber with their suppliers who either respond favorably or the yard finds another source for lumber that's of the quality that their customers require.
When, for example, we place an order for cedar bevel siding……the yard guys unband it and check it out when it arrives and if it doesn't meet our standards (which they well know) they send it back for us and call the supplier to tell them that they need to send better material.
Bad material is the same price as good and we're all looking out together for our client's best interests. I don't see a problem with that, the client doesn't have problem with that, and the yards don't seem to either. Maybe we're living in "lumber yard Shangri-La", but that's the way it is here.
There is a yard here in town that stocks the "lesser" grades of lumber and their business is faltering big time. Most guys are driving the extra fifteen miles to the better yards for their stock. and are more than willing to pay the little difference in price. From what I can tell, this is nothing more than supply and demand in action.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
" Bad material is the same price as good......"
I was with ya up to that point. No way is that statement correct. You even admitted it yourself:
"There is a yard here in town that stocks the "lesser" grades of lumber........... Most guys..................are more than willing to pay the little difference in price.
You're correct in pointing out that it may be different in different regions - That's pretty easy to forget. But in the 18 years I've been doing this in Illinois, price is all the maters 99% of the time. Guys will drive across town to save ten cents per stud, then complain about the quality later.
Does the name Pavlov ring a bell?
Boss,
What I meant to express is that no matter what yard you're buying from, the price of the better stock is the same as the poorest in the pile.
I know all too well that there are yards where the managers put up a fuss or will even deny you the right to sort lumber, but when they or their wife goes to the supermarket, they'll leave the obviously bruised or rotten fruit and vegetables in the bin and always feel like that's their right. Is that guy from the lumberyard a hypocrite when he does this? Should they be required to take a certain percentage of damaged fruit or vegetables?
Hire me to build something for you and I doubt that you'd complain if I brought back the best stock I could find for you. I'd be more than happy to do that for you. :)
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
There was an article in FHB some years back about a guy who was using engineered lumber for framing. He said the material cost was about double, and the time he and his crew didn't spend sorting and culling and crowning and straightening and shimming and planing pretty much balanced it out, and gave better quality walls in the finished product.
Do you buy the rotten tomatoes at the market too?
Tomatoes and lumber aren't the same thing. They throw away rotten tomatoes. Are they gonna throw away crooked lumber?May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house. [George Carlin]
Around here in Ohio they strap up the wildwood and sell it cheap. It's ok for some things like hog pens and such.
Boss,
I've been thinkin' on this a bit for the last couple of days. No, we shouldn't "throw away" crooked lumber like a rotten tomato. We try to return our rotten tomatoes to the garden ground where it can again sustain the growth of new, more suitable food for consumption. There are plenty of other legitimate uses for poor sticks of lumber than trying to build with it. It can be chewed up for OSB or used as fuel to keep our butts warm in winter. We've all seen sticks that would make ideal propeller stock.
Please correct me if I'm mistaken, but it seems that there's an implication in your statement concerning the use of poor sticks of lumber, that we are as consumers compelled/duty bound to pay for it and use it simply because it's there in the pile that's for sale. I'm not sure of the origin of this notion, if it exists, but if it's based upon sympathy for the lumberyard or the logging companies……I couldn't disagree more J. That notion would put the profit-making motives of the logging companies in total control as it regards those of us who attempt to make our living dealing with whatever material they would care to foist upon us in their attempts to have an "efficient" business plan and maximum profits. Perhaps it's really the logging companies that are responsible for wasting this wood by cutting and attempting to mill and market it, before it really should be done. ???
If the idea that sorting lumber is improper because of "limited resources", let me assure you that as a farm boy, I realize that the natural resources of the planet are not limitless and that there are more of us each year with needs for food and living quarters. This increase in population alone stresses those natural wood resources…..not to mention the as of recent boom in the housing sector that was spurred by an intoxicated, inflated sense of wealth from "false" stock market gains and the accompanying low interest rates that enticed folks into building new homes "right now". I do think that people's desires for bigger and bigger homes, just for the luxury feel of it all and a desire to impress others with their affluence, has contributed more than its fair share to the stress upon these natural wood resources.
Concurrent with the recent housing boom was a trend toward bigger and bigger vehicles of individual transport. The fossil fuel supplies of the planet are also limited, but this didn't stop people from buying 4x4 Expeditions for trips across town to the shopping mall to drag home a thong, pack of gum, and a six-pack. We all pay for this in the big picture, as it too is a waste of precious natural resources in the pursuit of personal comfort and pleasure and helps to drive up the price of fuel for the more essential trips associated with sustaining life.
My point is that if we are expected to quietly accept and use every stick of lumber at the yards because it's "our duty" to the available natural resources, the lumberyard, and/or the lumber mills, shouldn't those for whom we're building be required to do their part by building smaller homes than they might truly desire so as not to unnecessarily overtax those natural resources? Who should be appointed to make these "size" decisions? How many of us have tried to dissuade our clients from building "that large" so as not to tax these diminishing resources? I'll bet that instead of being upset over proposals of large houses and building projects, the majority of us rub our hands together in anticipation of all that work and income. Our "business" response is to celebrate.
I personally feel that a "checks and balances" system must be allowed to operate in the construction business as it does in other arenas of American and global life and that an integral part of that control is our right to accept or reject materials based upon suitability of usage, appearance, or whatever criteria we should so choose. As builders, this is our only avenue of feedback to the lumber mills and lumberyards as they seek to run their business and maximize profit. If we're not allowed to do this, what can we expect to be forced to use five years from now?
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Returning bad lumber to the yard doesn't really accomplish much. They just throw it back in the bunks of lumber and sell it to someone else.
No, lumber can't be taken back and re-ground up into OSB. It has to be done when it's at a specific moisture content, and it can't be done after it's kiln dried.
I don't mean that you should just blindly take whatever lumber is given to you and make do with it. But that's not what's happening, at least in my experience. All I see is more and more price pressure. Everybody talks a big game about how they want good quality lumber, but I don't see anyone backing that up by asking to pay for it. So nothing is going to change. Get used to the lousy lumber.
So I guess I'm saying: "Put your money where your mouth is" more or less. If the general public doesn't want good lumber, they're not going to get it. A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history - with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila.
For me, it's about 11-15% of poor stuff. I can always use it up for braces, cripples, deadwood, etc. Occasionally, I'll get a roof rafter 2x12 or something more expensive that is wildly checked, full of knot holes, or had been driven over with a truck that is incopmpatable with it's intended use and I will send it back. I don't generally get to pick and choose because of being on the island and having it delivered so I might tend to agree wioth you because on a bad day, what is delivered to me might be the top of the pile that someone else has just picked through. In that case I'm still covered because it can get expensive to run out of lumber out here and slow production . I'm more inclined to over-order the amt needed. We can set the worst aside and let it go back if it's grossly bad. Good and it goes to the next job..
Excellence is its own reward!
Boss,
Didn't remember that about OSB until you mentioned it.......obviously. Now I do.
I have to agree with you that if someone isn't willingly to pay for the good stuff, then they shouldn't have it.
I also have to agree with you concerning your point about price pressure. I suspect that the majority of new home builders do want the most square footage for the lowest possible price and this likely has lead to a chain of events that gets reflected in the quality of lumber that gets ordered into many of the lumberyards around the country. A point well made.
I'm glad to be able to tell you that I'm more than willingly to pay for the "good stuff" that I require/desire. Always have and always will. Actually, when I'm building for someone other than myself...it's not me paying for it...it's the client and that's as it should be.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
I don't doubt that you're willing to pay more for better quality lumber. After hanging around on this board for a few years, there are a lot of people who feel the same way.
But that's not how the majority of the public/contractors seem to feel. That's why I was saying that unless there is a major change in public opinion (Which is unlikely) I don't look for any change in lumber quality. A good plan violently executed NOW is better than a perfect plan next week. [General George S. Patton]
Boss,
Sadly........I have to agree.Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
I think a lot of people look at a home under construction and see the skeleton rising out of the ground with all those pieces of framing lumber and think that that is a substantive portion of the building cost. As most of us know, it is not, and I, for one, am perfectly willing to pay a little more for a consistent product knowing that by getting good product, I will reduce waste and labor.
Having worked in the lumber mfg. industry for a number of years, I do know that most mills are capable of producing good quality and there are grading rules that address issues like wane and knot size and slope of grain and so forth.
Mills are also sensitive to customers if pressure is applied because it is a very competitive business and the margin with framing lumber is pretty thin. As I've stated previously, I am not bashful about demanding that the material I pay for meets grading specs nor should anyone else.
A certain amount of defect is allowable with most framing lumber and that's to be expected, but I don't want big knots at the end of a stud or spike knots in the middle that reduce or eliminate the strength of the piece. And if a lumber yard is careless about storage and their inventory sits in the sun day after day and gets cork-screwy, then they should pay the price, not me. And if they let customers hand select, fine, but they should cull out the legitimate rejects and, if the rejects are excessive, the lumberyard should take it up with the mill.
And if I buy a piece, say a structural select 4X12 that is part of an engineered component in a structure, I fully expect it to be in good condition and within grade spec, because as soon as I use the piece, it's MY responsibility.
A few observations:
-So much for lumber being a renewable resource. While theoretically possible the combined forces of planting with borrowed money, fairly common, and the inability to defer gratification make the chances that the trees will be grown in a way to promote real quality. Planted close enough together to develop tight grain, culled to straighten and promote fewer lower branches, rinse and repeat as necessary, and then wait 75 to 100 years.
Few people have the foresight to work on such things when their kids won't even see the payoff. The only major source for this sort of quality is first growth forests. Nature isn't worried about making a short term profit. A lot of those 2 by 4s with bark on three sides are milled on site as land is cleared for the universal sprawl.
Land speculator will often buy land and plant tree farms until the urban cancer raises the price of the land enough to justify stobbing in another development. In a gratuitous touch of irony most of these developments will sport names suggesting a far more verdant environment than what remains. The echoes of the silent screams of a dying forest.
-The prettiest 2 by 4s I have seen in a great while were at a local HD. Dead straight, no bark or wane and very few knots. They were from Sweden according to the mill stamps. Not the first pretty thing to come from Sweden. Hopefully not the last.
-Even ugly studs are probably more than strong enough. According to what little I remember about structural calculations even the cheapest studs, below the code minimum for grade, are far stronger than they need to be for most applications. Structures hit by hurricanes or tornadoes, unless they are completely converted to mulch, seldom have their walls broken in half across the studs. The connections give up long before the studs crack.
-I don't understand the logic in saving 10 cents per stud and then spending 15 extra minutes trying to make it work and stand in line. Not to mention the harsh language coming from the drywall guy, cabinet man, door hanger and trim carpenters who try to make it look right.
-At least one carpenter I know is so frustrated with lumber quality that he has switched to steel studs where he can. He went so far as to take a set of plans to an engineer to have the structural portion designed in steel. He loves the perfectly straight studs available in length up to 40' at no premium. He was able to negotiate lower rates with trim crews and drywallers on steel studs. They know the walls will be flat and plumb on his jobs. They save time he saves money. HOs get pretty walls.
Interesting on the nice 2x4 at HD. I noticed this past week at Lowes that the 2x4 studs were terrible (notty, bark, splits), while the larger pieces - 2x8, for example- were beautiful. I suspect it has to do with the size of tree required for the 2x8 versus the sapling for the 2x4. That said, in back of the Lowes there was some nice (#2 prime?!?!) 2x4 lengths, but no pre cut studs.
That's the second time in this thread that someone has mentioned 8" wide being better. I think it comes from milling practices. The top of the tree gets used for 4" stuff because it's too small for 8" (OK,some is too small for 4" too)
Anyway, When I order up for milling my own stock, I get 1x8 or 6/4x8 instead of1x4s. even if the casing will be 5" wide, I don't get 1x6 because the grain, wane, and twist are always worse on the 1x6. The off cut can be milled into something else..
Excellence is its own reward!
As far as mills being sensitive to customer pressure, a large chain of sawmills in eastern Canada actually changed their way of cutting lumber due to customer demand. Customer was HOME DEPOT. Based on what I see around here, it actually improved their product (!)
I couldn't agree more, good points.
I wonder how much money the mills save by skimping on the quality control that let's the crap go to market.
Even in today's age of people who are stupid enough to think they need to waste energy at every turn, transportation is still expensive. If they only shipped the good stuff, perhaps the cost of quality control at the factory could be offset?
> If they only shipped the good stuff, perhaps the cost of quality control at the factory could be offset?
As it is, the cost of quality control is zero. They let the customers do it when they pick thru the pile. It's exactly like tomatoes at the supermarket, lumber really is a vegetable.
Grading isn't quality control. Grading rules only consider size and location of knots, angle of the grain, wane, checks, splits, and that kind of thing. Straightness isn't a grading criterion, nor should it be. Get a couple dozen straight sticks, stack and sticker them for a couple months, and you'll find that some have stayed straight, but others are bent and twisted. The grading criteria are all things that won't change as the wood dries.
-- J.S.
When ordering studs from a distributor, a retailer has several choices of grade...."econ", "cabin", #2, #2 & Better, Standard & Better, Premium, etc, etc.
The deal as a buyer is to rely on your salesman to tell you how the stock looks, check it out when it arrives in the yard, and mentally follow the brand of lumber that is yielding the higher quality cut for the money. Then watch each load as it arrives to see that the quality is consisitent, and if it changes badly then shift to another mill.
Inspecting the shipped units also allows for the return to the supplier of units of lumber that were obviously out of grade or overly weathered or wet from improper storage. It is a constant struggle to keep the quality and price balanced.
And yes, we pay the same price for the "rustic" stud as the ones that are "hand picked" from the pile. There is no way to have a full unit of all "perfect boards"! And the "defective" ones can not be returned to the distributor for credit.
And yes we have good contractors to take whole units and consumme them without a word of disparity.......and we have contractors that require a ratio of 2 units delivered to one unit sorted out and returned. We add burden to the latter when we quote his jobs.
"Straight" is NOT a grading rule! It,s no picnic to sit in the middle, and it's no cake walk to work with crappy lumber.
But this is a result of the tree farming and harvesting methods that provide us with our building materials. Tough for everyone. Remain diligent and survive.
......................Iron Helix