I have a 22 x 24 deep detached garage that we are going to start framing this weekend. Plans called for a 2 x 6 pt sill plate under a 2 x 4 toe plate. Here’s where it gets interesting….. My brother doing a deck job orders extra 2 x 6 pt ,tells me to use a double 2 x 6 pt sill plate instead . He foots the bill for the lumber, so I think, ok not a big change from the plans.Now he’s telling me I should frame the walls with 2 x 6’s instead of 2 x 4’s. Tells me I can insulate better with the deeper stud and would not be losing any usable space because I already am using a 2 x 6 sill plate. Also would have more support area for the trusses and the header for the 16 foot door span. Aside from the extra cost of the studs and top plates (about a $ 1.25 more a stud) looking at about a $250 more total lumber cost , any disadvantages in going this route. I hate to sway from the original plans,and he is the carpenter in the family (I’m a first timer) do I have any argument in doing it his way? sorry for the long post—Paul
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If you want more insulation than fine. All the other stuff is all nonsense. You nail your 2x4's to the double sill and be done with it.
""Also would have more support area for the trusses and the header for the 16 foot door span.""
That's also nonsense. There's millions of houses framed with 2x4 walls with trusses, 16' headers and bigger.
It's not a disadvantage, it's just that he's telling you you do it for no reason other than the insulation value. Structurally you can frame that garage with 2x4's. If it was so important the plans would've been drawn that way.
Ditto Framer.
txlandlord....retired framer....custom builder
Detached garages don't need insulation.
The 2x6's will be stronger.
2x8 walls will be stronger still.
If your walls are tall (11' or taller), you NEED 2x6's. If not, 2x4' will function quite nicely. I don't see why you would need a wider plate either. I'd rip it rather than overbuilding the entire garage to fit the sole plate.
Don't wast the money or the wood. Save the owls!
blue
I'd rather have a 5 1/2" wide beam for my header than a 3 1/2" one. I've seen too many double 2x12 with plywood beams sagging after a couple of years.
2x6 walls are also easier to walk on the plates and they do give you more bearing, but it's not that big of a deal. I have heard if you insulate a non air-conditioned space it causes the walls to sweat.
JK
>> I'd rather have a 5 1/2" wide beam for my header than a 3 1/2" one. I've seen too many double 2x12 with plywood beams sagging after a couple of years. << Are you talking about garage door headers or just headers in general?
i'm refering to garage door headers. in these parts, they used to just use 6"x10" plywood spacers @ 2' centers between 2x12's on these "beams" and you can drive around in places and see 2" deflections... i've also noticed that a 2x6 wall has less flex in the top plates than a 2x4 wall... i'm not suggesting he uses 2x12's for the header, a glulam or an LVL is a much better choice. if you're going to build it, make it as strong as you possibly can so it becomes your legacy, man
I assume you are talking about single garage doors. Around here we see many more double garage doors than single and the headers always are steel. Even the singles often contain flitch plates. If not steel, 14" LVLs are more normal, depending on loading above. This talk of 2x12 garage door headers is pretty foreign to me...
As far as >> if you're going to build it, make it as strong as you possibly can so it becomes your legacy, man << That's a good theory, (look at my profile) but value does not equal throwing as much lumber as something as is possible, and then your statement >> 2x6 walls are also easier to walk on the plates << which is obviously true, but sorry, that sounds like stuff coming out of a man who is not responsible for the overall budget of a building project.
If he just wants to spend money I wonder what would make more sense to him: an 8' tall garage door so his truck or boat will fit in there, or 2x6 walls? Again, if he just wants to spend money, how about some 5/8 sheathing for the roof to avoid uneven roof planes on a trussed roof? - that might be money well spent. Or... my kid needs braces too...
All: if there is some compelling reason(s) to use 2x6 walls, like extra tall wall height or more room for insulation, (provided his climate warrants it - we don't know where he lives) and he plans to heat the space, then fine. Otherwise, it's just pi$$ing away $$$. BTW - isn't the OP the same guy who was asking about using Simpson brackets on the bottom of every stud to avoid toenailing? Granted this is a place to learn, but let's not teach wasting money... I'm surprized that the CRX guy didn't chime in on the Simpson bracket thread and say brackets and screws should be used... :-)
"This talk of 2x12 garage door headers is pretty foreign to me..."I see them a lot on older houses around here. Usually the walls are 2x4s, the garage door header is sitting on 3 2x12s and they beef up the studs on either side of the garage door with doubled 2x6s. As for the OP. 2x4 is fine unless you are planning to turn the garage into a workshop and want all that extra insulation.The height you can use for an unbraced 2x4 wall depends on your seismic and wind zone. If you use the international code and are in a less than 100 mph wind zone and a low seismic area, you can use 2x4 at 24" on center for up to 10 feet, 16" on center up to 12 feet.
If your walls are tall (11' or taller), you NEED 2x6's
Can you explain that one?
I'm currently building my garage and it is 11' to the top plate with 2x4 @ 16" o.c. Plans call for blocking at midpoint.
I watched a video, some years ago, where they did compressive test on 2x4 stud wall sections, with and without blocking. The difference was dramatic. I don't remember the numbers, but it was three or four times higher for the midpoint blocking than an unblocked assembly.
Can an unblocked 2x6 wall approach a blocked 2x4 wall in compressive values before it fails?
Dave
Dave, in our localities, the BI's require that all 11' studs be either doubled or 2x6. We aren't dealing with seismic issues here. We don't do midspan blocking either but I appreciate knowing those ratios that you posted.
blue
no insulation in my detached garage???? Not for me. I have to keep my detached doghouse as comfortable as possible. Installing a heat pump for it this weekend just to make it more comfortable and to keep the beer cooler from working too hard. Plus it makes it a great place for me and the dog to hide in the winter. Amongst the tools, motorcycles and other toys.
Silly me...I thought a garage was for parking a car. I wouldn't think of hanging out in my garage in winter...probably because it's uninsulated!!!!
blue
Garages for parking cars? I can see there are no SoCal residents in the house. My latest garage for my usual clients with more money than brains? 75 feet deep and 48 feet wide and the walls were 18 feet high. Twin 12 x 14 doors in front to accomodate the twin Prevost motor coaches. Studs were 2x8's on 12 inch centers because of the wind zone. Shear panels on every square inch. Full hip roof. We hate owls here.
My latest garage for my usual clients with more money than brains? 75 feet deep and 48 feet wide and the walls were 18 feet high. Twin 12 x 14 doors in front to accomodate the twin Prevost motor coaches.
I can see there are no SoCal residents in the house.
Oh yea, well you should see the size of the "Garages" we build in Texas. : - )
5 - John Deere combines / 4 - 70 HP tractors / a ski boat / three ATVs / Case backhoe / 4 WD crew cab farm truck / 18' lowboy trailer / shop space / work benches / bathroom / stereo system / the all important refrigerator and some old couches and chairs when the boys have to "work late".
My friend / client farms, raises cattle and does custom harvesting. 5 - $300,00.00+ John Deere combines and he uses them 3 months a year.
Well okay then, consider me suitably impressed. My brother worked for Texas Power and Light for many years in the Decatur area. I had forgot that some of those Texas boys could really spend the coin on "toys". Of course out here the "cowboys" are all hat and no cattle.
I was joking. As blue points out, these buildings are obviously barns or stroage shops.
It is sometimes funny, you'll see $300,000.00 combines, $100,000.00 tractors and $50,000.00 pick-ups in or around a huge and expensive barn, and all behind a 1400 SF wood frame home on blocks that needs a new roof and painting.
>> and all behind a 1400 SF wood frame home on blocks that needs a new roof and painting. <<
Is that kinda like a doublewide? - or was that before doublewides?
Most of the time is the old family farm home....but double wides do abound.
I guess it's a matter of semantics.
Around here, we call them polebarns or barns. If the barn gets big enough, they call it a riding arena.
blue
I LIVE in my garage in the winter, and outside in the summer. I go nuts if I am in the house. Mine is insulated and on central heat, and I love it. I am building a detached next year - it will be insulated and pellet-stove equiped.
If we were approached to build the garage it would have to be fully insulated 2x6 construction with 5/8" rock because it does make the space more comfortable with a better feel to it all.
Others will build it with knot-filled 2x4 crap studs 24" oc, or however you like. One fellow I've seen will even build it from 2x3s if you are feeling lucky.
I was more concerned about the extra header support (if any) than anything else. Most detached garages I have seen have been 2 x 4 construction. I don't know why the plans call for a 2x6 sill plate I think there must be a reason because out of 3 or 4 sets of plans they all call for the 2x6 sill plate.
"I was more concerned about the extra header support (if any) than anything else."There's no reason to worry at all. A header does not need to sit on anything bigger than a 2x4 wall unless the header is specked wider then 3-1/2" like a 5-1/2" wide header. Then you'll have it specked for a 2x6 wall in your situation.If all the walls are 2x4 and a header needs to be bigger, they will design it to be bigger in height not width. I've had headers that were 18" high that had to go in a 2x4 wall.Just about every garage I've ever built was specked with 2-2x6 plates. Some I've framed with 2x4's. If it's on the plans then just leave it.Joe Carola
paul... the reason a 2x6 sill plateis used is because a 2x4 sill plate is so narrow it puts the foundation bolt too close to the edge of the concrete ... very little room for error
doubling the sill plate gives you an extra 1 1/2 " in wall height
if you use 8' studs , a double sill , and your shoe & plate, you wind up with an 8'- 6" wall
if your slab is 4" below the top of the wall, you rough ceiling ht. is now 8'- 10"
which is a good minimum for standard overhead door track with a 7' 6" door
as to wether to use 2x4 or 2x6.. you brother is wrong.. you reall do lose 4" in inside room
a 2x4 wall @ 24" oc with standard sheathing will be more than strong enough for any requirement... our standard would be 2x4 @ 16" oc
the headers get additional support by doubling the jacks, which is a good idea anyways as it makes it easier for nailing the door jamb trim, i like to use pt jacks and run them right into the foundation drop for the door
the headers nowadays are going to be LVL's and two of them are 3 1/2 thick, so again, a 2x4 wall is perfect.. there is usually no reason to triple the header unless you have a ht. restriction problem, or you have some special load on a 2d floor..
the lumber yard that is selling you the lvl can do the engineering and spec the header
if you really want extra insulation i'd still use 2x4 and turn it into a mooney wall, but that's just meMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"I was more concerned about the extra header support (if any) than anything else."
A header in a 2X4 wall shouldn't be any big deal, unless you're REALLY short on height or using tall garage doors.
A couple of 1.75" LVLs should be able to handle the load easily. The depth would depend on the live load requirements for your area.
Chopped cabbage - It's not just a good idea... it's the slaw.
Paul,
I've just built my garage with the same footprint. Sidewalls are 2x6s and the gable ends are 2x4s. The door header is a trimmable 16"x 20ft truss for an 18ft door. Since I want shop space, I've got a loft with 7ft ceiling height. It's a Gambrel style. The through walls are 12ft giving me about a 4ft perapit wall height in the loft. Balloon framed with a 2x6 letin supporting 2x10 LVLs, 16oc, lagged to the 2x6 studs.
You posted to the wrong person. You mean Paul R.
Joe Carola
Edited 7/6/2006 4:44 pm ET by Framer