Replies

1. 
   renosteinke | Jul 07, 2009 03:14am | #1

   If you need to ask, maybe you ought not be doing the work.

   Anyway, here goes:

   Hot wire------common screw on switch <====== travelers =====> common screw --- light.

   In each switch, the travellers attach to the switched screws.

1. 
   wdb45 | Jul 07, 2009 04:53am | #2

   "If you need to ask, maybe you ought not be doing the work."It must be nice to have been born knowing everything and not ever having to ask for help!

1. 
   renosteinke | Jul 07, 2009 08:07am | #4

   Yes, I was afraid my remark might be considered rude, or arrogant, or otherwise improper.

   Yet .... and I confess it took me a fair bit to learn some of these things .... there are questions so basic as to require you to not work 'outside of the classroom.' In electric work, wiring 3-way and 4-way switches falls into that category.

   I am reminded of some tourists I encountered here, who were not able to make sense out of their map. Well, we have the University of Nevada here, so one hill is marked with a big "N". We also hace a neighboring town, Sparks, which has a hill marked "S" for Sparks High School. Our visitors were trying to orient their map, thinking the markings were for 'north' and 'south.' I think it's safe to say that these were folks who definitely ought to stay out of the endless Nevada back-country :D.

1. 
   Dreamcatcher | Jul 07, 2009 04:11pm | #8

   "If you need to ask, maybe you ought not be doing the work."I had to agree with that when I read it. I think a lot of people come to breaktime and ask questions that are obviously far beyond their skill level; the the true answers to which took me many years to know.It's true that nobody is born knowing all....instead we who know these things have heavily invested our time and money to know what we do about what we do. Still, you know he's gonna wire those lights whether you give him the right info or not; and whether they are wired correctly or not will go unknown unless the lights don't turn on (or turn on dim) or his house burns to the ground (but he saved $75/hr by doing it himself).Now, I'm not saying he can't do it. I'm not saying he shouldn't. I am saying he should be trying much harder to do it correctly the first time every time. Considering that it's near impossible to wire a 3-way by written description alone and that diagram that was posted looks like it came with a Chinese train set, I would suggest that the OP go out to the store and get him A BOOK on electrical that he can carry to the top of the ladder to check and double check and triple check his work until he is confident and skilled enough with 3-way (and any other way) to not need to come here and ask.BTW to the OP:
   The Taunton Press whom is kind enough to supply this web site forum publishes several great books on how to wire a house. They also have books on how to frame walls, how to install windows, how to build decks, how to do many basic tasks that people come to BT and ask.Better to be safe than to come home to a pile of ashes laying in your basement.DC

2. 
   Zorrohood | Jul 08, 2009 01:59pm | #20

   You got the funniest cops in TV too.

2. 
   maddog3 | Jul 07, 2009 09:14pm | #10

   not really, his point is that amateurs that seem to be coming out of the woodwork around here........... nshouldn't play with things that go zzzt, just because I can carve a turkey don't make me a surgeon.

   .

   .. . . . . . . .

1. 
   wdb45 | Jul 08, 2009 01:29am | #12

   About the turkey carving, I always admit that I can run a backhoe but I am NOT an operator.

2. 
   fingersandtoes | Jul 08, 2009 02:19am | #13

   I don't know. It's not always the DIYers that have the wackiest ideas around here.

3. 
   BillHartmann | Jul 08, 2009 07:08am | #16

   You are right.There have been any number of people that have required trips to the ER from DIY carving. Not to mention food poisoning from DIY cooking.To be safe you should only eat food prepared by professional trained chiefs..
   William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe

1. 
   maddog3 | Jul 08, 2009 08:00am | #18

   and yet, they still push onBill, you spell it out for these folks, You're more than capable of walking them through it ! I OTOH never felt it was a good idea to encourage someone who doesn't have a good working knowledge of the material, because some folks think they are more than capable of doing it all by merely asking for help on the internet like over at GardenWeb and lately, here.
   .
   .. . . . . . . .

   Edited 7/8/2009 1:38 am by maddog3

2. 
   BillHartmann | Jul 08, 2009 08:56am | #19

   My point is that every day life also has it's dangers. And if you just stay in bed the roof will rot and the ceiling fall on you.And with a little knowledge that are better off.And, in the past I have responded with some simple guidance, but also added if you don't understand this then you need to get someone else to do it. If I get a good response and find out that they really can do it, just used wrong terminology or similar then I will follow up with more detai. But I don't think that I have every gotten a response that indicate that they canBut that was cases the question was clear that they did not have any experience with electricity or even tools. But never seen that in this forum..
   William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe

2. 
   gfretwell | Jul 07, 2009 07:39am | #3

   That's a great picture but it is wrong, the white wire (reidentified) in the 14/3 should be connected to the black feed and the red/black should come back.

1. 
   wane | Jul 07, 2009 03:03pm | #5

   anyone who trusts the color of a wire is in for a shock, we all have our ways and the color of a wires insulation is not as important ..

1. 
   renosteinke | Jul 07, 2009 03:30pm | #6

   Reidentifying the white wire is not only a cofe requirement, ir's one of those little things that suggest whether a pro did the job.

2. 
   Treetalk | Jul 07, 2009 03:39pm | #7

   Some of us must wear many hats as dictated by a myriad of conditions whether they be financial; lack of skilled labor or the size of the project. One can provide and obtain confidence by gathering as much information and expierence as possible thru text and "reliable sources" as possible. Knowing when to ask and how to use the information is part of the solution.

   If its one particuliar switching situation in years of wiring that has be scratching my head for a bit im unashamed to ask for advice.

   And diagrams   from reputable sources can be questioned such as the FHB wiring book and even this simple dialog.                                                                      

1. 
   BillHartmann | Jul 08, 2009 07:05am | #15

   This shows all of the different ways that a 3-way can be wired.http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/switch-outlet/3-way/
   .
   William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe

3. 
   gfretwell | Jul 07, 2009 11:04pm | #11

   The code says the white wire when used as an ungrounded conductor in a switch loop should be connected to the feed. In the case you illustrated this goes beyond a safety issue and actually makes the circuit easier to work on later since you know immediately the reidentified white wire goes on the common screw of the switch.

2. 
   BillHartmann | Jul 08, 2009 07:03am | #14

   "That's a great picture but it is wrong, the white wire (reidentified) in the 14/3 should be connected to the black feed and the red/black should come back."I am not that sure the NEC is that clear.From the 2005 NEC "200.7 Use of Insulation of a White or Gray Color or with Three Continuous White Stripes(C)(2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible."And from the Handbook;"Previous editions of the Code permitted switch loops using a white insulated conductor to supply the switch but not as the return conductor to supply the lighting outlet. Prior to the 1999 NEC, re-identification of this particular ungrounded conductor was not
   required. However, many electronic automation devices requiring a grounded conductor are now available for installation into switch outlets. Therefore, reidentification of all ungrounded conductors that are white or otherwise identified by one of the methods permitted for grounded conductors is now required at every termination point to avoid confusion and improper wiring at the time a switching device is installed or replaced. The required re-identification must be effective, permanent, and suitable for the environment, to clearly identify the insulated conductor as an ungrounded conductor."As shown the white wire is a supply to the switch or to one switch.Personally I think that it is a little cleaner and clearer to use the re-ided white as the hot supply to the common on the 2nd switch And the red/black for travelers.But what he showed is very common in a lot of sources.Now I have a copy of Ray Mullin's "Electrical Wiring - Resdential" (Delmar Publishing). Apprently it was designed to be used as a text book for apprentice and trade schools. This addition said that it was updated for the 1993 NEC.In first example is the basic 3-way with the power to the first switch, 3 wire to the second and then the light.The first case is wired like God and 99.935% of the electricians would wire it with red and black as the travelers. And wire is the neutral between the 2 switches. The other way of wiring it is using red and white as the travelers and black used as the neutral between the 2 switches. And has this caption "Either way is permitted ny the Code. NBe sure that the white conductor at the lampholder is connected to the lampholders's white (silver) termina. See Section 200-10, NEC."The 2nd example is a common switch leg with power to the light, switch leg to the first switch, then 3 conductor to the 2nd switch. As expected the white is used as the always hot and the black as the switched hot. But at the first switch the white connects to BLACK on the 3 wire to the 2nd switch and read and white are used as the travlers.The text says that the NEC requires that the white always be connect to the lamp socket silver terminal. But, other than that, the color is the travelers is not designated and many electricians pick there only "standard" and that red/white is a one such standard.BTW, in another forum a different question about re-marking the white came up. Anyway some one has a copy of an NEC from the 70's and posted that section. It was a very, very poorly and twisted section on wire colors for switch legs and has the requirement for remarking the white. However, someplace over the years the wording was made clearer, but the remarking requirement was dropped until 99. I don't know if they decided that it was not needed at the time or if just got lost in the rewording.
   .
   William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe

1. 
   gfretwell | Jul 08, 2009 07:27am | #17

   "Now I have a copy of Ray Mullin's "Electrical Wiring - Resdential" (Delmar Publishing). Apprently it was designed to be used as a text book for apprentice and trade schools. This addition said that it was updated for the 1993 NEC.In first example is the basic 3-way with the power to the first switch, 3 wire to the second and then the light...
   ...The other way of wiring it is using red and white as the travelers and black used as the neutral between the 2 switches."With all due respect to Ray, using any other color but white or gray for the neutral is a violation ... period.

3. 
   DaveRicheson | Jul 07, 2009 09:11pm | #9

   View ImageOption 1. Fixture Controlled by Two Switches: Power Through a Switch Box Two three-way switches control one light with the electric power coming through the first switch, flowing to the second switch, and then to the light fixture. The ground wire goes through both switch boxes and the ceiling light box and it is connected at all junctions, except the light, with a pigtail (short piece of wire) and wire connector. The hot wire in the drawing is black and is connected to the COM terminal. The neutral wire is white. Track each with a finger to its conclusion at the light fixture to ensure proper connection. Some light fixtures with a chain pull have a ground connection. (Click Image or here to enlarge/print Diagram)

   View ImageOption 2. Fixture Controlled by Two Switches: Power Through Light Two three-way switches control one light with the electric power coming through the light on a two wire cable. In order to code the white wire, which is used as a power wire from the light fixture through the switches, black electrician's tape is wrapped around the wire in the boxes. This way, if you or someone else goes into the boxes for repairs, the white wire taped black will indicate a hot wire. Even when taped black, the white wire may never be used to bring power to the fixture terminal. The red traveller (switch) wire runs just between the two switches, not the light. Note connections of the ground wire.

    

    

   http://www.homeimprovementweb.com/information/how-to/three-way-switch.htm

    

   That was just the first one I googled.