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320 year old house

andybuildz | Posted in General Discussion on July 22, 2002 09:56am

 I’m back to putting a bid in on a big ol red 320 year old house near me here on Long Island NY (45 min to NYC). Seems the deal keeps falling through for the owner. Its a pretty intense renovation in store for who ever buys it. Seems when you drive up to it on two acres you fall in love immediatly..Walk in and get a little scared but still stay in love…come back a day later get a little more scared but still in love but  by the third or forth time and becoming serious you start to see all the work thats needed …WOW!!! I dont just mean cosmetic stuff either. Theres some real structual issues that need immediate attention. Most of which doesnt bother me and I’m sure I can handle it. First to rip off the wood shake roof and redo it. I noticed in the attic that there were four heavy cables that seem to run from one eave to the other across the floor and wondered about that. I found out from the historic society here that when a roof was raised (which this one was) in the early 1800’s they would actually wrap cables around the whole house to keep it together as they removed the entire roof with turnbuckles in the attick to tighten the cables together and sure enough when I went down into the dirt basement and looked up at the floor I could see the cables there runing across it and up the walls.

OK what concerns me the most is that the second floor rear wall seems to bow out quite a bit by the soffetts. Almost looks like it was built like that but I seriously doubt it. There arent any cracks in the walls that abutt it from inside and the homeowner said its been like that for the twenty years he’s lived there and there werent ever any cracks or any kind of shifting. I looked in the attic at the roof rafters and theyre all totally tight together at the peak (no ridge beam, just roof rafter to roof rafter pegged together). I cant see the birds mouth but assume if the rafters are tight together that nothings coming apart. The front of the house looks dead plum as do the sides. Any thoughts here?

Thanks

         Be well

                    Namaste’

                                     Andy

It’s not who’s right, it’s who’s left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

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  1. andybuildz | Jul 22, 2002 10:20pm | #1
    View Image
    Style Bedrms Baths Property Size School District Price
    Colonial 4 3 2 2 $799,000

    Incredible historic circa 1680 Colonial on two flat acres. Generous size rooms, wide planked floors, two fireplaces and loft. Great house with all the charm an older home can offer.

    Heres the house

    Andy

    It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

    1. jet | Jul 22, 2002 10:36pm | #2

      Balloon Framing no doubt? Even with the rafters tight at the ridge, are there any crossties? I had an old garage ( not quite 350 years old only about 100) with a similar problem. Thre were no crossties on the rafters. With ours we had to replace the rafters as they were rotten and only 2X4 rough. the roof had a sevear camel back to it.  I don't see any problem with the roof on you eternal renovation job. is there a camel hump to the roof? To me IMHO something has pushed the wall. You said the roof was raised not too long ago in the history of the house. More than likely the bulge was prior to the "new" roof.  If the roof needs raised again than what about trying to pull it back in when the roof is off.

      Looks great though. Well worth the TLC required to set it right for the next 350 years. Good luck.

      1. andybuildz | Jul 22, 2002 10:49pm | #3

        WW

               There are no collar ties and I really can't see what would have pushed the top of the wall out. Roof lines all look perfect just beat. I thought if I get the house that when I rip off the old roof shingles I'd try and pull the upper rear wall in some how. Maybe with the turnbuckles I spoke about on those cables. Cut the birdsmouth back and turn the cables tighter....... then if by some miracle the wall actually comes in I'd fit some blocking into the outside of the birds mouth to keep it in place. thing is I'd have to probably remove the last stud butting the rear wall where ever there is an abutting interior wall so I have no resistance.

        PS.....Its not "bulged out" its tilting out from the top of the wall by the soffett so if I dropped a plumb line from the corner of the top wall by the soffett to the ground the string would probably be away from the bottom wall by about 2 or more feet I'm guessing

        Thanks

              Be Well

                      Namaste'

                                    Andy

        It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

        Edited 7/22/2002 3:54:15 PM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)

        1. jet | Jul 23, 2002 04:22am | #4

          Just sounds like the house has "character".  If the wall won't come back after the roof is off than I would put cables across the attic and say that if it held up for 350 years than it will outlast me.

          "It's not out of plumb, it just has Character"

        2. DavidxDoud | Jul 23, 2002 04:54am | #5

          2 feet!!? - - the whole top plate along the length of the house from corner to corner? - - no cracks in interior/exterior finishes? - does the kneewall upstairs lean out? or the whole wall from ground to plate? - - sounds like there is a story in it somewhere - great moments in colonial building history - I think I'm with (the other responder,  can't remember and I can't see the thread),  sounds stable and could be described as character - - I assume it is a timber frame system ( is there a summer beam inside with a center fireplace?) - so when they raised the roof they framed in a 'kneewall' and at the same time added the dormers?  gotta wonder if the original framing had some quirk associated with the overhang in back - wish I were close,  would love to poke around -

          don't really understand the cable thing - the cable is wrapped around the outside? - this would be a 20th century thing?  think you are right to be leary,  and guess it adds some bargaining position,  but you the MAN!! - don't think I'd do anything dramatic trying to change the plate relationship to house,  just learn to love it - DOUD

          1. andybuildz | Jul 23, 2002 10:00am | #7

            Seems to me that from the second floor up to the top plate leans way out. Wondering if in fact it is baloon framing. Sure doesnt seem like it unless the framing is made from a rubber tree....lol. Looks real solid but I'm concerned. Figure I could strip down the interior plaster in one of the bathrooms as that doesnt seem to be original anyway and take a peak. The siding....wood shingles also doesnt seem to be original so I could remove that as well and do whatever has to be done. Guessing though that the sheating is T&G and dont wanna mess with that. My thought is......if its truley out in a structutal way to add new studs along side the old into a newly cut birds mouth leaving the old in place, Take pictures of the new work for when ever I sell the crib letting folks know I took care of the problem without messing with the original work. Also...I DO agree with going to the historic society here in town to get opinions. I live in Cold Spring HArbor Long Islad which use to be a famous whaling town on the Gold Coast of Long Island (former home to Billy Joel, John and Yoko, etc etc...oh yeh and current to Andy Clifford 20 years....lol)We shall see if this all goes down. Looks like a great crib for a FHB story and possibly a This Old House deal

            Whatcha think?

            PS...the cable is inside the walls and on the attic floor as well as the basement ceiling..Wraps around the whole house inside.Kinda cool actually. Was told it was done in the early 1800's but who knows?

            Making this house funny to me is theres an inground nice pool behind it....Just seems kinda outta outa place but I can deal with it..lol

            BE well

                        Namaste'

                                        AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

          2. KenHill3 | Jul 23, 2002 08:09pm | #8

            Hey, Bro-

            So, if I understand it, the second floor wall is the leaner. If you go inside, can you see the same out-of-plumb condition on the interior walls?

            Ken Hill

          3. andybuildz | Jul 24, 2002 01:28am | #12

            It looks worse inside then outside but doesnt look like its moved in years as there isnt any wall cracks etc etc. I deal fell through several times I beleive because of the leaning wall among other isssues. the homeowner knows all this. Its a nightmare for him so once my house is sold I'll see how much less I can get the house for. I KNOW I can get it for about 700000 but until MY house is sold I cant really start barginning with him. Trying real furiously to sell my house. I had several offers that are good but just as everything seems ready to go "some5thing" happens like my buyers house deal falls through. Already had an engineers report from one buyer and passed with flying colors but their sale fell through. Really getting stressed out. Its all timing

            BE well

                        Namaste

                                      AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

        3. PeteBradley | Jul 25, 2002 08:28pm | #18

          Andy,

          The house looks great, and it sounds as if it has escaped the disastrous "improvments" perpetrated on so many old houses over the years.

          I've seen a 18th century houses with leans (incl. a saltbox that leans forward by over 18").  The cables make me a bit nervous though.  Is it possible that you're looking at some historical clues here?  People used to make pretty wholesale modifications without a lot of consideration for structural issues.  Could it be that somewhere along the line, the roof was significantly, the back wall started to lean, they added the cables, etc. 

          Worst case of course would be that the lean is the end result of water getting into the framing through a chronic leak.

          I'm curious: are the sills ok?  What are they sitting on? (I'm assuming rocks, but once again, someone may have "improved" the foundation).

          Very few buyers are going to have what it takes to handle this one.  It seems to me extremely unlikely that any inspector is going to sign off on it.  You're probably one of the few people in the market with the wherewithall and the ability to size up the situation and to handle whatever surprises come along once you get into it.  In my mind, that puts you in a pretty good position to ask the seller to allow you extensive presale examination of the house, as well as price concessions based on what you find.

          Please post a few more pictures if you get the chance (side and back).   I like the way you inserted a picture that even the Prospero-challenged like me can view.

          Good luck!

          Pete

          1. PeteBradley | Jul 25, 2002 08:42pm | #19

            You might also be interested in the book "The Framed Houses of Massachusetts Bay, 1625-1725", by Cummings.  I have no feel for what differences might exist between the techniques used in these houses and "yours" though.

            Pete

    2. jeffn7 | Jul 24, 2002 02:27am | #13

      "Great house with all the charm an older home can offer."

      I submit that a house built in 1680 isn't just an 'older home', but rather just plain "old"

      1. andybuildz | Jul 24, 2002 02:36am | #14

        MAybe old but theres nothing plain about it. You should see the inside. Even has the original deed framed on the wall as well as a 300 year old cradle that has to stay with the house so the deed says. The funniest thing though is theres a Viking stove in the kitchen and a sub zero fridge.....not to mention a pool around back.....kinda looks out of place but what the hay.....I'm sure if I get the house I can deal with a pool

        It's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

        1. 27sean | Jul 24, 2002 06:33am | #15

          Why not make an offer that is contingent on the sale of your home?

          No need to wait.

        2. jeffn7 | Jul 24, 2002 06:35am | #16

          Andy,

          I'm sure it's pretty remarkable, I didn't mean my comment to be a negative... I just found the wording 'older home' to be a little amusing. Also, I live in california where the oldest homes are 80-90 years max!

          1. andybuildz | Jul 24, 2002 03:31pm | #17

            Jeff

                   I'd love to make it contingent but the guy wants  his money now. He's had a dozen or so deals fall through and he wants something solid. He's a lawyer and seems to be very cheap. Never did much of any thing on the house in the 20 years hes lived there. I also would like to be in the position to have the cash for more negotiating power.  I'm putting an ad for the sale of my house in the NY Times this weekend (check it out). Sunday. Getting sick of the real estate agents even though my wife's one of them. So many of them are blatent liars and have screwed up deals on my house for me by lying....Anyway...still trying....and yeh, I know that about Calif as I was just there looking for land. People dont seem to care about their homes as much as the people do here in the east..(the curb apeal)..Seems theyre more into their actual lives then the "house".....not making a blanket statement...Just something that I seemed to notice. Even the really expensive houses were kinda dated. And I looked at a LOT!

            Be well

                   Namaste'

                                AndyIt's not who's right, it's who's left ~ http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM

  2. Rein_ | Jul 23, 2002 05:20am | #6

    Wow!

    It seams to me that anything that age should be of value to the local community. Perhaps there is a local historical board with some extra resources to help consult with you.  Local historical boards often have budgets that can help you gain information without having to invest yourself.

    A good experienced historian may be able to help you get a perspective on the original construction techniques or even particulars on this house's history. I don't mean to suggest you don't know anything about construction techniques, just that it is nice to bounce ideas off of someone who specializes in something this old.

    Good luck, I'm glad to see people taking care of national treasures.

  3. JohnSprung | Jul 23, 2002 09:22pm | #9

    > Seems the deal keeps falling through for the owner. Its a pretty intense renovation in store ....

    If the owner will let you, spend most of a day out there with a good laser level, a clip board and plenty of paper, a long tape, and a helper.  The main idea is to measure and frown. check things, and look concerned.  Your helper needs to help you look concerned.  Make sketches with dimensions on them, give a puzzled look, and go back and measure something again.  While this may also provide you with useful information to determine what's really wrong with the leaning wall, the main purpose is to convince the owner of two things.  First, that there are some real expensive problems to be solved, and second, that you're the only buyer he's likely to find who's willing and able to tackle them.  By putting more time and effort into investigation than anyone else, you position yourself as the only serious buyer.  Once the seller believes that, he'll take whatever you offer.

    -- J.S.

    1. brucepirger | Jul 23, 2002 09:27pm | #10

      Just a thought...do you think you will need to worry about a historical society controlling your rebuild? I have heard those stories...buy it, start working, and whamo...suddenly they care.

      Just a thought...might not be a bad thing, but I have read how they look to be in control of all...

    2. User avater
      mmoogie | Jul 23, 2002 09:37pm | #11

      This is a story and a half timberframe. The ones that I've seen have a beam at the second floor level that ties the posts together across the house, serving as a collar tie of sorts. The rafter plates on top of the kneewalls are usually quite large to help resist spreading, and disperse it out across the whole length of the wall. Other than that, they are counting on the stiffness of the posts form the second floor on up to resist the spreading fporce that's applied to the rafter plates by the rafters. There may also be some collar ties uppat 7 feet from the second floor, but they tend to be too high up to do much good.

      I'm guessing the posts may have warped badly from the second floor girts on up to the rafter plates due to the spreading force of the rafters, probably a very long time ago.

      Steve

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