I recall an article some years back about working 4/10’s as opposed to 5/8’s and was wondering if anyone builder/remodeler have experience with this? Pro’s and Con’s etc.
KJD
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Not with houses. But I work a 4 on 4 off sched. in the aircraft industry.
10 hrs 40 minutes a day. The 4x4 gets them a 7 day coverage and I get my weekends every 3 out of 8.
The days are long and I find I'm really productive only for 8 or 9 hrs out of 11. the sickness is higher and the accidents are higher.
But it beats 5x2 crud shift with designated days off. like Mon-Tues off or Thurs-Fri off.
If at first you don't succeed...try again! After that quit! No sense being a dam fool about it! W.C.Fields
Waddya doing getting soft? Why not six tens?
Actually, I've almost always worked the ten hour day, even when an employee. I don't know why anyone wants to waste daylight by not being productive. Think about it...
You spend the same time getting tools out and picking up each day.
You sweep up at the end of the day.
You take the same coffee break AM and PM
You take the same lunch
That above is all the unproductive time for each day, regardless of whether you work a ten or an eight. Assume that it totals 70 minutes. That means that the productive part of the day is either 6:50 or 8:50. That makes for a 29% increase in productive time each day over the eight hour day.
The down side is that everyone has their limits. for some people their stamina quits after nine hours, and production slows. Others get careless, less mentally alert, and accidents or costly errors happen.
Excellence is its own reward!
Well then, how about a 2/20 work week?
This looks good on paper. The workers are happy because they get 5 day weekends and the employers are happy because they get more productive working time [20 hrs. - 2 hrs. clean-up/set up - .15 mn. lunch and break = 17.75 hours {88 3/4%} versus 8 - 2 -.25 = 5.75 hr. {71 7/8%}. Of course, there are things like sleep...
~Peter
Not responsible for typological errors. This material has been edited and censored for pristine exactitude and typical relevance. There are not non-corrosive pronouns in this document. Subject to revision without notice. Copyright not valid in a certain large Asian country. All sales final. Satisfaction guaranteed or you get to keep both pieces.
Hey thanks for the reply. I should clarify my question. I work 5/12's the 4/10's would be for the crew primarily and give me one business day a week without haveing to be available for the little issues that require personal supervision. Also safety would be a big concern. It does sound like the risk does increase somewhat. Does it out weigh the production value? I would like to find that article I read. Can't put my finger on the issue. Is there a way to search for it through FHB? I recall the author liked the system at the time however I wonder if they still practice it.
Thanks again
KJD
As I've always been a one- or tw-man show, I can't attest for how it affects a larger crew. But all pros/cons aside about set-up and roll-up vs. production time, I know, as a trim carpenter, that I never did consistently good work in those last 2 hours, if pressed to do it. Maybe that's just my own issue, how my brain handles stuff, but I don't think I'm totally alone in that respect.
When I was a machinist, if I had to some really demanding, close work, I went in early and did it before the morning was half gone, because my results generally went downhill after that.
I think another issue is crew attitude. Are your guys happy, and do they like their work? Are they well-rewarded? I think all of these things play into how many hours someone wants to be bending nails.Formerly BEMW at The High Desert Group LLC
I am with Piffin on this one. I end up working 10 or more hours a day. Start at 7 or 7:30 and start picking up at 5pm, get in the truck anywhere from 5:15 to 6pm. Two days a week I am not home til 7 as I have a teaching job on Tues, Thurs.
Since marriage and parenthood weekends are for the most part sacred. I do of course end up working on our house more often than not but that shouldn't count as work.
I would rather work my #### off now and have the means to relax while in my fifties or early sixties than have a cushy schedule that I work til the day I die.
to each their own.
Karl
Notice that I said I like a ten hour day. now that I'm in my fifties, I aim for a six hour day myself, most of the year..
Excellence is its own reward!
We work 4/10's in the summer when the days are longer. Everyone seems to like it except the high school help, who start to fade late afternoon (they're not made like they used to) even after several sandwiches.
We take a substantial break around 3 and some guys eat a second lunch and we have time to get squared away for the rest of the day.
The 3 day weekends are big hits with the help plus I get a day to get organized on Monday when everything is open. One downside is that it seems to take a bit longer to get up to speed on Tuesday morning as everyone needs to be retrained, having forgotten where they left off Friday.
On the net, I'd say it's a good thing.
Don
Thanks for more feed back. Do you experience any added safety problems and how about production in your situation? I certainly see value in a three day weekend for the crew. Now you run Tue. to Fri. in the summer only?
KJD
I think production was equal to or better than the 5/8 schedule. Sometimes when weather would wash out an afternoon I'd wish for the extra day back in the week but tried to keep my perspective. No added safety problems.
One thing I should add is that you really have to stay on top of the supply line as the smallest glitch gets magnified, so I tried to keep more materials on the job and more pickup available than I would under the 5/8.
In hard winter we cut back to 5/7's because the first hour in our area is not work working and we're getting too old to fight it; we also avoid most of the rush hours with both schedules. Clients don't seem to mind and the attitude seems better.
Best
Don
when I was younger A company that I worked for worked on a 10 hour day. depending on the job it would be from 4 day shist to 21 day shift. It was industrial oilfield construction. I enjoyed t because you would get a extra week's pay or a three day weekend. I wish I worked that shift know because the project that I am on is right downtown so I have to take transit. Also the weather is getting nice.
Generally, where I have seen fatigue add to safety concerns or increase accidents is when a guy does some ywelve of fourteen hour days for a short shot. the tens are only a problem for the ones that still want to party all night too and they are their own worst enemies on any kind of schedul..
Excellence is its own reward!
Our exterior trim crew has been working 60 hours per week for a month now. They're playing catch up now that we have a full crew in place (gee, it's hard to find good help!). Generally, they work 11 hour days and pick up the rest on Saturday.
The first 2 weeks of this, everything was moving along at a good clip. Now I think it is really beginning to wear them down. Poor guys, they look tired. I do think their productivity has slowed some. For afternoon breaks, instead of grabbing another bite to eat, they have been heading off to the creek for a quick swim.
Yes, I do worry about the safety factor, as they are up 2-3 fights of scaffolding. I brought this up with the foreman and he addressed it at the weekly safety meeting. None of the boys will cry "uncle", though. They are determined to get caught up.
Me, I do the punch-out and warranty. I've been only working 5-10's, and am worthless at home on Saturdays.
darcy
Every man eventuallyu learns what his limit is. For me - I start making mistakes after about 56 - 60 hours. I worked 66 last week and I was getting downright stupid by 6PM saturady night..
Excellence is its own reward!
Yeah, I know what you mean.
I consider my Real Job to be caring for my 3 kids, my home, and my yard.
Going to work is fun, not to say it's not hard (or stressful), but I enjoy what I do immensely.
It helps that the company I work for is a good one, thoughtful, considerate to their employees. Last week I called for an afternoon "emergency meeting", and surprised the crew with strawberry shortcake! Friday, the company served them pizza for lunch.
The crew loves this stuff. (Personally, I believe "the crew that eats together, bonds together".)
Anyway, our guys are willing to do everything within their power to get us caught up, bless their hearts.
Hope you get some rest,
darcy
I gaurandarntee that the crew that is working from loyalty and love will perform better and be more motvated than one being driven under a lash anyday! the Strawberry shortcake makes your money go farther..
Excellence is its own reward!
Piff:
Since we seem to be about the same age (60) thought I'd share my experiences. I'm a retired person who offered to share my time for training. Wanted to learn log work. I wasn't paid, so was a rather impartial observer. We were working in Aspen in January, and it was brutal( to my way of thinking)
It was 4-10's, 7-5. The first hours was spent shoveling off the previous nite's ice and snow. Then work began, and the sun rose( in the mountains at 10:30). We had the usual breaks, and by 3:30 the sun had set and it was brutal. There was virtually no productive work after 4. I, having moved to this climate from the tropics, was stupefied, and had to say, I ai n't doin no more. (Interesting thing, no one but the boss knew I wasn't being paid-you can imagine how that was received).
Having been a student of productivity all my life, I am convinced that the average ADULT male only has 8 efficiently productive hours in him.
Stef
All these years, I thunk that the average adult tropical male had only three to five hours of work per day in him.
;)
But that's in the tropics. In the Co mtns you gotta keep moving.
I worked north of you in Middle Park for about 11 years and south in Montrose for a couple of years. Shoveled plenty of snow in Summit county too!
But you make my point about efficiency again, if two hours in the morning are spent clearing snow, there are still eight hours to work on productive stuff.
Productivity does slow way down below zero degrees and it stops altogether at about minus 30°F!.
Excellence is its own reward!
Stef,
I disagree with your point that optimum productivity is 8 hours. I would say it's both higher and lower.
When I say lower, it's because most jobs in construction would benefit from more spring in your step. When doing work during college, a friend and I would do punch-out and build small decks for a buider. With class schedules and daylight constraints, we frequently could only work 4-5 hours on most days. I can remember literally running to the lumber pile to grab some joist in order to keep my buddy stocked so he wasn't idle for any bit. Since we worked for short periods, we could maintain a pace that would not work (for me at least) for 8 or 10 hours. The ability to move quickly is reduced proportionately with the level of detail and thought needed for the job.
On the other hand, there's always set up and tear down. This factor is why I would say that the most productive day is more than 10 hours (with conditions). As piffin has pointed out, these non-productive activities can eat up a lot of time, depending on the job. Even though one might not be as productive for the 8th to 10th hours, if they are still doing work correctly and safely, than I believe that the overall benefit would be positive. Now, this is assuming that other constraints are not coming into play (weather, noise ordinances, etc.). If the commute is long for the workers, they will benefit, althought this does not necessarily profit the company.
Just my thoughts.
Jon Blakemore
will perform better and be more motvated than one being driven under a lash anyday! the Strawberry shortcake
Classic example of spending a dime (on cheesecake) and getting a dollar for it.
As to the uselessness of the lash, consider these recent comments:
"Work happens when work provides rewards to the many needs of the worker. Work will not happen if it promises frustration and unpleasantness." Naval Leadership, Capt. W.G. Elbert, USN, et al, Naval Institute Press, 1949, pg. 49"Most men will work as long as work promises to get them somewhere. They will not work when work promises to bring failure, or only small rewards, or downright punishment." Ibid., pg. 47"If at any moment, the possibility of failure seems equal to or greater than the possibility of success, a man just cannot get wholeheartedly involved in work . . . If the suffering and risk seem greater than the rewards of success, however, no effort will happen." Ibid., pg. 48"An important characteristic of forced groups is that the individual member cannot get out. If you are the leader of such a group you can do all sorts of disagreeable things without technically losing your followers. If the group is easy to get out of, you as leader, must mind your p's and q's or you will find yourself without any followers. In a situation where members cannot leave it is easy for the leader to cultivate an illusion of effective leadership. He gives an order. His men obey. Therefore, he is an effective leader. And perhaps the effective leader of a . . . group is one who never has to rely on the fact that his men can't escape." Ibid., pg. 116
I keep these on my wall to test how bad my job is. If the present job fails all fours tests, it is past time to bail.
I looked at the idea of trying a 4/10, and had my crew all for it, until I checked with our Department of Labour. Seems that the Government, in it's infinite wisdom, killed this idea in it's recent revamp of our labour laws.
They have mandated a 40 hour week with anytime over 40 as overtime. So far so good, until they throw in the new reg. about an MAXIMUM 8 hour day! A 4/10 week would have to be paid at 32 hours @ 1x, and 8 hours @1½ for a total of 44 hours pay for 40 hours work. They call it progressive.
Dennis
Was this a Federal or State Mandate?
KJD
I'm in the Commonwealth of the Bahamas.
Dennis
Sorry to here that! It is a good point to check on that however (state/fed/commonwealth regulations). I don't need any additional hassles!How do you work at all? Isn't it too relaxed?
Thanks again KJD
Back in the late 70's I worked as a joiner for a company that made fittings for security sensitive locations-- bank counters, payroll windows, bullet proof doors-- that kind of thing.
I worked a four day, ten hours a day week, plus overtime as required on Friday morning. If I recall correctly, something like 75%-- 80% of all cut off fingers, mangled hands, etc., caught up in sundry woodworking machinery happened between about 4 pm and 6 pm.
A few months after I left I heard they'd gone to a 5 day 8 hours a day week. I was told by my friend still working there that the company felt it had more than just a little responsiblity to reduce the number of industrial injuries that happened in those last two hours of a ten hour shift-- plus an injured worker on the company books receiving compensation from the company whilst recovering at home or wherever was more than doubly non-productive-- they'd have to employ another joiner temporarily to do the work of the injured employee. Slainte.
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