I recently had an energy audit conducted on my home and the inspector advised that I could save a little money by insulating the poured concrete walls with the insulating foam panels obtainable at Lowes, Home Depot etc. The concrete walls which are 4 ft above ground level have the rough brick appearance. The inspector advised that the panels, (recommended a two inch thick panel for R10) could be glued to the concrete walls using the expandable foam sealant / insulation you can purchase in the aerosol cans.
Have any of you used this technique? The foam insulation is pretty sticky stuff but I wanted to check with you all to get your input. Do you think that I can get good adhesion? Will the spray foam sealant have any adverse effect on the 4 x 8 panels?
Any recommendations will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you !
Frank
Replies
they make an adhesive for this, dunno if it is better or worse. Comes in a caulking tube
PL 300 is formulated for use with foam, but it is far harder to use and more expensive and does not work as well.But you can do it with less getting in your hair.
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yes, it will work fine once you get the hang of it. You have to have a couple 2x4s to wedge/hold the panel in place for about 20 minutes. Be sure the crete is fairly clean first
But I would not use the disposable cans for this. Way too expensive for the amt of foam you would be using. get a gun for 30-40 dollars and the larger screw on cans. They provide 10-20 times as much foam, and you have more choices of good foam. What you want to the formula for adhesive rather than the insulation type. Dow, Enerfoam, Great stuff and others make iota available.
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I only have five sheets to install to the concrete walls. Sounds like it would take quite a bit per sheet. Would liquid nails adhesive also work just as well?
Thanks
Make sure the adhesive is rated for foam. Some adhesive attacks it.
Many solvent based adhesives are not compatible with rigid foam, they will melt the foam and not adhere. Whatever you use, make sure it is compatible with your panels. You don't need much to adhere a foam panel to a masonry wall. Friction fit properly and it will practically stay there by itself
Friction fit??? how? where? The OP said a concrete wall, not a masonry wall. Friction fit is like between two elements, not a free surface ... it can't practically remain in place by itself (or maybe I missed something).
Why would the foam need to be attached if a wall is going in too? Put down the bottom plate, insert the foam and put in the top plate, make a wall yadda yadda...Trmporary brace or duck tape the foam if necessary as you go.Am I missing something?
I thought this was the exterior of an exposed foundation wall. If you have some sort of 'cavity' to friction fit to, you're right ... friction fit.
He said it's going in a storage area.
The satorage area comment was only pertinent in that he does not care if the finished surface is nice stuff. His original diescription was "The concrete walls which are 4 ft above ground level" which combioned with the energy loss concerns strongly implies that this is an exterior wall.Since he only is using five sheets to cover it, I suspect that the other three walls are almost fully below ground and this house is on a sloped lot
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I'm still confused.
I can see it in your expression.;)
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I'm assuming there are at least four walls and he's using blue board with T&G edges. We friction fit these all the time, start in one corner and work towards the next. Make the last piece just slightly snug and the whole foam wall stays in place without any adhesive at all, otherwise known as "friction fit". Of course, if he has a solitary concrete wall standing in the middle of space with nothing surrounding you have a point.
The 4 ft concrete walls support the rafters for the "A" frame style home. All I'm attempting to do is to install the foam insulation on the interior side of the concrete wall. Its a small space runing the length of the North wall and I thought it might help if I insulate it. Hopefully it reduce some of the cold air in the storage area. There is another structural wall approx 4ft in from the concrete wall that provides structual support for the rafters and frame for the interior. This wall is insulated as one might expect. Hopefully I've not totally confused you all.
Again I thank you for your input and suggestions.
Thanks
I think we are most capable of confusing ourselves! ;) If you are not framing a wall, contruction adhesive should work w/ the caution that it be compatible w/ the insulation and you clean the wall where you glue.
If the storage area is considered living space you would nbeed to cover the foam with 1/2" drywall before applying paneling -- check local codes.
After attaching the foam you want to make sure to tape the seams with Tyvek tape or something of similar quality.
After you build your wall in front of the foam you can suirt some dabs of spray foam between the foam and the studs. This will hold the foam in place for the long term, should there be water pressure or something that causes the foam adhesive to fail. This will also significantly stiffen the stud wall. Just don't overdo it and bow the studs.
Billy
LN will dissolve the foam edit - I think i've head that LN does have an adhesive specific to foam.But the caulk gun products are second rate for this application compared to can spray foam adhsive.
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Edited 10/2/2009 5:30 am ET by Piffin
How are you planning on finishing the foam? Are you just leaving it exposed?
Been there (actually there right now) / done that. Here's what I've found.
Spray foam works fine, but it has pretty low tack until it sets up, so you'll need to find a way to hold the sheets tight to the wall for a couple of hours. I usually run steel studs & drywall in front of the foam, so what I do is install the tracks before the foam and use a temporary stud here & there to wedge the sheets against the wall. (You do know you're gonna have to cover the foam with drywall or some fireproof material, right?)
If you need high initial tack, like where it's hard to keep the sheet braced, LocTite has a nice hi-tack adhesive that works great for this. Loctite Powergrab foamboard adhesive. Good stuff. (Better than PL, which I usually prefer.) The big boxes carry it.
Incidently, plan on 1/2 tube of either per sheet.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Everything fits, until you put glue on it.
Thank you all for your input. You all have provided me with additional info which is giving me additonal info to proceed from here. I was going to just glue the panels to the wall and leave it but I now think I'll go ahead and attache some 2x4's, install the panels and then cover all of it with some type of inexpensive paneling as this all goes in a storage area. Hopefully the foam will provide some insulation and keep the cold air out or at the very least, reduce it.
Thanks again to all of you ! I do appreciate your taking the time to help me with this seemingly easy task.
Frank
I would use the proper adhesive and attach the foam to the wall, then use the same adhesive to glue the paneling to the foam. Usually you glue the paneling to the foam, pull it loose so the adhesive gets stringy, let it dry a tad, then press the paneling back onto the foam. It's less work than framing a wall up.
Synthetic stucco base coat is a great adhesive between foam and concrete.