From gyros to spirals….This is similar to one I posted several months ago,,except it is three feet taller. I am building a 405 degree oak spiral stairway in my shop. It is 66 inches in diameter…each tread turns 27 degrees. The floor to floor height is 11 ft. 6.5 inches.
The first picture is the stack of treads and tread supports ready for fitting to the column. The second is the jig I use for mortising the column. The third is the column all routed waiting for the tread supports to be fitted to each hole.
Replies
Fitting some supports.
Trial fitting all the supports. Next..I will fit the treads to the column and the supports....making 15 total tread/support units that willbe knocked down later and assembled on site.
two more of the column being fitted for the tread supports.
Geez, you can really lay the wood to us.
1. Did you construct the column staves around circular forms?
2. How did you glue up all those staves in real time?
3. Will you draw pin the tenons to the columns?
4. Are you going to put some sort of support under the treads to keep them from fracturing?
5. Did you laminate the tread supports or cut from solid 12/4 stock?
I have a stair design dilemna I'd like you to comment on. If I post pictures would you advise me, or prefer to do it privately?
Stef
Stef: I have made the columns before with staves and a bunch of rope clamps. After having the satisfaction of learning how to make a column...I just order them now. I can buy a lathe turned column for much less money than I can mess with making it.
Each tread support will have a lag bolt drawing up the tread from the opposite side of the column. The heads are covered with one inch oak plugs.
The treads work just fine being supported by the tread supports. The supports are two 1.25 inch thick oak planks glued together. 2.5 inches total thickness.
You can post your dilema in private. I will be more than happy to see if I can help.
Stan:
Simply beautiful. Very impressive! It's good to see there are still skilled and talented craftspeople around.
What's the difference between a spiral and a helix?
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
Al: Its just terminolgy. Curved stairways are typically the large inner radius ones. Spirals wrap around a column or a very tight open stringer. Helix is the path that a set of points describe at a certain radius while ascending or descending.
Umm... Stan, I hate to bring this up, but did I notice a couple of unfinished walls in your shop in a photo or two... Don't tell me you let your gyro deter you from finishing your shop.... I mean, none of the rest of us would every conceive of working in anything less than a totally complete and finished shop, now would we...
Casey: some things just dont bother me. I could live without the drywall if it werent for the extra light it bounces around.
Beautiful work. I'm just curious. You ever draw a straight line?Who Dares Wins.
Gunner...I have always said I cant build anything straight......lots of truth to that when you think about it. Anyone can sight a straight stairway and detect an 1/8 inch bow....but I have never found anyone that can see a deviation of a curve unless it is very pronounced.
Stan, your work is awesome, as usual.
Looking at the coopered colum all mortised out, something inside made me wonder if the strength of the colum is some how compromised by the short grain between the mortises. It appears like the short grain is the only real connecting fiber .
My arm-chair physics(construction job aquired) tells me that a strong enough lateral force on an upper tread(given the timber of the tread) could create a spiral split to develop. Your pic Spiral61 shows what I mean in particular. It could even happen with seasonal changes. Do you see what I mean? Have you ever had any problems with this?
If I am way off base here, let me know, and I am in no way being critical of your craft, I think your work is the pinnacle.
Dave: I have had the same thoughts. However...after years of looking at other spirals..and having built many myself....I have never had any problems. The staves are 1.5 inches thick...and I dont think I could split the column no matter how hard I tried.
The biggest threat to splitting the column is having the mortises extremely tight and then driving in the tread supports. There is a lot of power in a wedge of course...and I could split the column this way.l
There just isnt that much lateral force from side loads coming from the treads.
I appreciate you bringing this up because I have done the same thing while building several of these. If you were to get on one and twist..push and pull...you would see that it isnt a problem at all.
Stan, that's simply an awesome piece of work. I would second your thought on the column not splitting. Some of mine are over 30 years old and have not shown any signs of glue line or structural failure. One of the cherry spiral units I built in the mid 80's lead up to the children's play room, it survived 6 kids racking and swinging on it for a good number of years. It looks beat but still solid as the day I finished it.
Armin: Thanks for the compliment. I always respect a compliment coming from someone who I know is a true craftsman. Your work is awesome..
Quick question about the column, how do you keep the staves lined up while gluing and what kind of clamps?
Armin: I usually buy the columns now. I have made them for the satisfaction of saying I can make them...but in all reality...I am better off spending my time on other details.
When I have made them...first..I would set my planer so that the desired number of staves would all meet nice and tight after 360 degrees. Then I would spline or biscuit joint these staves together...and use rope clamps to draw all the staves nice and tight. Typically I would have 14 staves. It depends on how the tread support mortices layed out.
It doesnt take long to turn the 14 flats..into 28 flats with a hand plane...then 56.....and pretty soon you have a real round column.
Stan,
As you were describing to Armin how you built the column I started wondering if you could build the column with the correct number of sides (compared to the number of treads and how they are placed around the column) to allow you to mortice through using a jig that sits on the flat (before it is rounded) to be sure to get straight through to the other side at the correct angle. Or would that not matter?We become by effort primarily what we end up becoming
- Zig Ziglar
Paul: That is exactly how I built my first ones.....but I have to be honest and say that I got the whole idea out of FHB years ago. The article had all the staves pre mortised before the glue up. After building several like that...I just found it far easier and more accurate to lay out the mortises on a column and route them in.
Using the planer to mill the staves? Do you have a jig to mill the proper angle or am I misunderstanding your process. I use a table saw with a powerfeeder, run a small test batch until everything fits then send the real McCoy through. Just finished up two 16 ft. 14 inch columns out of hard maple for a client out east. I like the uniform results but if you have a better method I'm all ears. Rope clamps, never thought of that, sounds like a fast disposable method. Years ago I picked up a three dozen 12" SS hose clamps, backed up with thin cardboard they make a fast simple clamp as they can be tightened using a power screwdriver.
Armin: I rough out the staves on the table saw..then just run them through the jointer. I incorrectly call a jointer a planer sometimes. I do the test run to get the angles just right. Your idea of hose clamps seems more desirable than my rope clamps. My rope clamps jsut were twisted tight with a stick ..and then held with a small nail
Nice, beautiful work Mr. Foster,,, two questions, 1- how do you usually ship/delivery your stairs. 2- Have you ever been asked by an inspector for engineering? Man Oh Man, what a mind you must have Mr. foster eh eh, curves spirals WOW, be safe Jim J
Jim: The spiral is broke down and delivered with my truck. The bigger curved stairs are loaded with 6-12 guys depending on how large it is and loaded on a trailor.
My engineering is my big butt bouncing on my work and seeing if I feel any flexing. :)
stan.......
I really enjoy looking at your projects. I hope you keep posting more in the future. Can you tell us your source for your turned center columns?
thanks..
sam (michigan)
Sam: Thanks. I get my columns from Pacific Columns in California. I dont have their number handy right now...I just found them on the internet.
I have all the treads inserted into the column. I am getting ready to glue the 23 foot handrail on these treads.
this is a view looking up
This is half the laminates being glued up. This was very tough trying to bend 23 feet of profiled handrail around the forms. I had two other guys assisting today and it was a sweat session.
The radius of the inside of the handrail is 29 inches....I dont know if I could have bent it much tighter.
The work on that stair looks average to me.
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Just kidding !
It's exceptional, as usual.
I've been watching out for someone to refer to you, but have had no luck so far. I'll keep my eyes open though.Why is the person who invests your money called a broker?
Boss: I was getting closer to your area today. I set that spiral in Flora, Ill. Do you know a Mark Niemerg out of Effingham? He builds nice homes and this spiral went in a huge remodel job he is doing.
Very nice work. How do you lay out the positions of the mortices? It isn't clear in the pictures if the router jig somehow engages the previous mortice to position itself. Even if it did, the potential for cumulative error would probably make that impractical.
Thanks --
-- J.S.
John: I start with a vertical datum line...and then wrap a strip of posterboard around the column. I mark one circumference on this posterboard and then lay out all the mortise centerlines. This particular stairs has each tread turning 27 degrees. So..this posterboard had 27 degree layout marks. These mortise centerlines were then just layed out from the verticle datum line at the height dictated by a story pole.
The hardest part is making sure that the mortise on the backside of the column where the tenon goes through is exactly 180 degrees from the front mortise. Also...the router jig has to be made carefully so that the axis of the router is on a true radial path through the center of the column.
Beautiful work, very inspirational, nice to show students that a higher level of work is available to them or a goal to pursue, excellence!
Thanks for sharing Captain Sawdust
I like the router jig set up. How do u line the holes at the angle/degrees from each other, how did you get the other side matched the front? Is the fixture made like a "horse shoe" shape or a square box with two size square holes lined up for the router to follow? I keep watching your work from start to finish, its a wonderful thing going! Don't stop sending step by step on how you got the whole works done! I'm trying to make a "sliding arch" router fixture for the hinges that I would like to do for my kitchen cabinets, so it is trail and error tests for me.
Blue: Jig has semi-circle saddles that are cut to fit the radius of the column. I start off with a vertical datum line...and take a loop of posterboard that slides up the column. The poster board is layed out for each 27 degree tread. The vertical datum line is layed out for the rise of each tread. Getting the mortise to come out 180 degrees on the other side is a little tricky..but wit very careful measuring of the circumference of the column,...then dividing this exactly in half....gives the layout very accurately.
The jig has to have the router base perpendicular to the radial line of the column. If it isnt..then the sides of the mortise may have to be pared out with a chisel a little.
Hi Stan, I'm new to Breaktime, and wanted to say you do great work. I was looking at some of the pics you have posted here and I am really impressed. Learned a lot just reading your posts. I am guessing you are self-employed? How did you get your start building all these cool stairways?
Mike.
Mike: Thanks. You will find by looking in the archives that there are many very interesting displays of craftsmanship in all areas.
I am self employed. I read an article in Fine Homebuilding way back in the 80's. It was all about guys building curved stairways in the sanctity of their little shops. That article was a catalyst in me that simmered for several years. Finally one day after having been employed at the same place for ten years and two days...I left and went on my own. I had just decided that I would rather try making a living at building curved stairways...and fail.....than to not have tried at all...and then to have always wondered if I would have made it.
Well...I can honestly say I have never regretted it...even if I had failed. I would be miserable living with myself this long had I not tried.
Yes, I know the article. It sounds appealing to me, too. Glad to see that you gave it a shot, and are doing well at it. I am fascinated with your work; I love making curved trim, curved raised panels, etc, but haven't ever done much with curved stairs.
Also, you are right about the diversity of craftmanship seen on this board. It is humbling looking at all the talent around here.
Mike