I am trying to figure out how someone buying his first table saw (or is it tablesaw?) for $500-600 can make the best of the situation when working with 4’x8′ sheets of sanded plywood.
Most of the really inexpensive table saws (those under $300) have almost no ‘table’ and have an extremely limit fence range for this application (4’x8′). Thus, I have tried to look at the $500-600 range (home DIYer, not a working trade) in order to get enough ‘table’ and fence range to acommodate working with wood piece.
BTW, I suck at trying to slap a 2×4 as a guide when using a circular saw to chop down sheets. I know I will probably offend some by mentioning the big boxes, right?
Replies
You could make yourself a panel cutting table. Norm did this on New Yankee Workshop. Could probably buy one too, but what's the fun in that?
A panel cutting table? Is this going to be a less expensive option? My setup will be the basement, but the need to 'put away' might be necessary.
It sounds like a rather large bench-style table with a saw installed into it. What did he use for the fencing material to insure it was true?
Ok, my imagination is projecting images of a circular saw installed upside-down ...
Instead of a giant table saw, think of a large table with a sacrificial surface. Lay a 4x8 sheet on the table, clamp a straightedge in the appropriate location, and cut the sheet with a hand held circular saw. Or mark with a chalkline and cut freehand if you've got a good eye and a steady hand.
There are all sorts of extensions you can buy or make. What is best will depend on your situation -- what kind of work you do, how much space you have, how it needs to knock down, etc.
Keep in mind that you need space in your work area for the full length of the lumber on both ends of the blade, so you need 16' of length (plus blade size, plus at least two feet of working room on the infeed side) if you plan to work with 4x8 lengthwise. Of course, the table doesn't need to be that big, but probably a minimum of two feet on the infeed and 4 feet on the outfeed. You will also probably want fence extensions, particularly on the infeed side.
Consider that for the outfeed in particular, you don't need a particularly solid surface. "Skis" spaced every 6 inches or so (or possibly just 3-4 adjustable ones) will do fine.
I find it best (with my small portable table) to pre-cut the plywood with a hand circ saw before finishing it off with a veneer blade on the table saw. For the best work you'll need to clean up the factory edge anyway.
And, in fact, in many cases I find it better to use a clamp-on saw guide and the hand saw vs trying to use the table. But you need a better saw guide than a 2x4 -- buy a purpose-made one, but be sure it's good and stiff.
5th .. if mohammed can't come to the mountain...
if you have a shop.. you can set up something permanent or semi-permanent for cutting 4x8 sheets.. what most do in the field is rip the sheets and then work on a table saw..
don't bother with a 2x4 .. you might as well snap a line if you're going to do that..
either use a dedicated straight edge ( we have an 8' 1x3 aluminum angle ).. or make
a shooter board..
rip a 2" or so piece of luan tack and glue it to a wide piece of luan as long as you want your shooter board to be.. the space left over should be slightly wider than the base of your best skill saw..
now put your skill saw on it and carefully rip the excess off.. you now have a shooter board FOR THAT SAW... with THAT BLADE... don't use it for any other blade/saw combination or you will destroy the accuraccy...
you can also buy dedicated rip guides for your skill saw..that have a shoe and a guide the shoe tracks on
or you can buy a system like Festool makes..a combination of guide and saw...
most that use shooter boards have an 8' and a 4' ( for trimming door bottoms )Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Ya know I got a good TS with a work bench that subs as a outfeed table Buuuuutttt
If its just one or twos sheets I want to rip. I'll have the yard rip it on their panel saw to a manageble size then haul it home and cut it to finish size...
Darkworksite4:
El americano pasado hacia fuera ase la bandera
I find you don't need need a table saw if you have a few things:
1. A good support for the plywood. USe an old door or build a grid from 2x2's and support either with saw horses. You don't want the pylwood to sag.
2. A good circular saw guide. You can make a homemade one for pennies. See below:
http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/pages/hvt041.asp
3. Circular saw plwood blade.
Here is a similar article from FWW.
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00035.asp
And note the pop-up for the a fold down table to cut the plywood.
Dang, that video and article is making me think twice in regards to a large table saw requirement. Ths cutting guard seems to one of the most useful accessories in a workshop. Ok, so will I be doing something wrong if I consider something like a Ridgid-brand tablesaw?
I will be using this in my basement, and nothing I am doing will be for stuff leaving my home.
What kind of stuff are you going to do with this saw?
DIY home furniture and cabinetry. You know, home entertainment center, built in bookcases, window chests, etc.
Then think about getting a contractor-type saw. One with a belt drive. Jet, Grizzly, Delta, Woodtek, and other brands. Lots of us woodworkers have survived for years making beautiful stuff, and dealing with sheet goods using a circular saw and a straightedge or shooting board, or even just a chalkline and a good eye and steady hand.
Here is what you can get for $599.
Click for Small Image
WOODTEK¯ 10", 2HP CONTRACTOR'S TABLESAW
Designed with "big saw" features, the Woodtek¯ 10" Contractor's Tablesaw features a T-slot miter gauge slot, cast iron extension wings, adjustable fence scale, up front pushbutton controls, standard blade insert, dado blade insert and professional quality fence system:
Right tilting blade.
One year parts and workmanship warranty.
Imported.SPECIFICATIONS:
Motor - 2HP, 115/230V - 24/12A, 1PH, 3,450 RPM (pre-wired 115V).
Blade Speed - 4,122 RPM.
Table Size - 40-1/2" x 27".
Depth Of Cut @ 90° - 2-15/16".
Depth Of Cut @ 45° - 2".
Distance From Table Front To Blade - 11-1/4".
Fence Length - 41".
Fence Height - 2-7/16".
Maximum Dado Width - 3/4".
Weight - 295 lbs.
Overall Dimensions - 37-1/4"H x 47"W x 59-1/4"L.
$65 machine motor freight charge applies.
Edited 3/28/2004 7:43 pm ET by Bob Dylan
Thats ok ya gotta start somewhere.Whats important is that yer doin it not what yer doin with.That is except for those of us with the weakness (see 'What tool do you buy today 'thread) ............Rik........
To save on space I use infeed and out feed rollers.
I have a Delta unisaw with a 52" rip capacity, but I started out with a cheapo crapsman in my basement just like you. I purchased two HTC roller stands for that one, and still use them for the cabinet saw.
At about $100.00 each they aren't cheap, but the legs fold up and they store in the corner. My unisaw has a pop up out feed roller set on the back, and the two old roller stands are used for infeed. I can lay a full 4x8 sheet on them and not have to do a balancing act as I start a cut.
For the money, you get a lot of versitility.
Dave
Festool, Festool, Festool.
I "Had" the same problem & bought a Festool plunge cut saw & guide system, I still have two tablesaws. I still rip my panels to width on my tablesaw & do all my cross cutting with my Festool system. Many times I cross cut before I rip, this saves material & it is easy to rip smaller panels.
What ever tablesaw you get make sure it cuts at least a 30" rip. The Festool & guide will set you back about $400.00, but once you have it, you will forget about the money.
Good Luck shopping.
PJE
Re - Festool, Festool, Festool.
--------
I'll second that.
I bought the ATF55 saw for this reason.
With the Festo table, it's an easy substitution for a table saw, maybe even a cabinet saw.
I'm checking out the festool idea, this is a perenniel problem for me. My current solution works pretty well for me.
Rockler sells an aluminum guide with two c-clamps that is inexpensive. The guide has 2 four foot pieces that connect when you need to rip the whole length. They are accurate enough for my tolerance (1/64th over 8'). I use a good quality saw, the better internals make a difference, and a nice carbide blade. I use a porter cable circ saw. I have made a zero-clearance insert for the saw so that I don't get rip-out on the oak ply. It's the same size as the saw base, made of the 1/4" brown fiberboard stuff (masonite), and I drilled four holes matched to the insert through the circ saw base. I countersunk the screws on it and they toggle-screw on the top. After it was on it was a little bit out of alignment so I planed it down dead even with the edge of the saw base. So I know what my offset from the carbide blade to the edge of the saw is, and I can use the aluminum guide to make cuts.
I have a cross-cut table for my table saw and a very good carbide blade on it, and I always get tear-out worse on the table saw than the above set-up. Plus it's more difficult working with larger pieces. But I do use the crosscut if the piece fits the table (less than 24") and isn't too long (4' or so).
The accuracy is good on the circ saw approach I mention. I use a sacrifice board under it. You lose the safety on the saw so you have to wait for it to stop spinning to put it down.
remodeler
Even with a table saw consider investing in a few True-Grip Clamp-N-Tool Guides ........ over the long run I think you'll find them really useful. Not just for ripping sheets of plywood down to size but dados and clamping too. Available in 8', 24", 36', and 50" lengths. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000224DM/002-7111025-4008064?v=glance As for the table saw, cutting the sheets down to a smaller size helps as can a cart and a good outfeed table.
What about a Ridgid belt-driven tablesaw, like the TS3650?
I have the TS-3612 and love it. You might check the Ridgid site for some no holes barred discussion. Most seem happy with the newer 3650. Jury is still out for long haul. The saws are manufactured by One World Tech., parent of Ryobi, but I do not think it has been shown to be a problem.
The Ridgid flip tops are a great product that can help with your outfeed issues.
http://www.ridgid.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi
Bob S.
General makes a contractor-type saw with a 50 inch fence for $700. I think it's $50 less to get the 32 inch fence. I don't have it, but it was rated pretty high in the last Tools and Shops issue. It's a 2HP, which is a little beefier than the normal 1 1/2 that the contractor types normally have.
I'm thinking about going that way myself.
I do like the look of that festool system, as well.
Look at Makita table saw with Rousseau table and outfeed extension.
If you are using your saw in a shop, and not planning to move it around to jobsites, consider building yourself a table extension assembly. I saw a great one yesterday, scanning the woodworking mags at the supermarket. "American Woodworker" or something like that.
The arrangement requires three sheets of plywood to build, and extends the sides out, plus has a large outfeed extension table, that folds down when not in use.
A local cabinet shop here has something like this on a grander scale. A cabinet saw, probably a Delta Unisaw, sits in the middle of a large room, and built all around three sides are table extensions, so that the actual cast iron top of the saw looks puny.
What I saw in the mag was a junior version of that.
Since Depot stores everywhere sell those Ridgid TS3650s, what will you pay for one?
Will it have a 2HP motor and be as heavy as the Woodtek?
I would go for the beef, rather than the brand name. The Ridgid is probably made in Tiawan, just like the Woodtek.
My choice would be Woodtek or Jet, whichever is less. I have made a lot of stuff worthy of magazine photo spreads with my Jet. I believe your net total on the Woodie is $599 plus $35 shipping, for a total of $634. And no sales tax is applicable.
Whatever you get in a belt drive, put a good blade on it, like the .126 kerf Freud Industrial ripper, and do one of those aftermarket linked belts on it to replace the one-piece belt. Greatly reduces vibration.
One more thought. Buy one (the Jet and Woodtek do this) that can be switched over in the motor to run on 220V, and equip a receptacle and breaker for it. They fire right up pronto, and don't dim your lights when starting.
My Dad has a saw guude thingy that attaches to a piece of plywood. Then you put your saw in a guide thingy and run it across the sheet.
I can't find exactly what he has, but it looks sorta like this:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000224SO/104-3540277-0627105?v=glance&s=hi&n=228013&vi=pictures&img=14#more-pictures
I've used the thing a few times. Putting the saw in it is initially a pain. But then making repetitive cuts is a breeze. The one he has is set up so it will either crosscut OR rip the plywood. The aluminum guide makes for nice straight edges.
I know you were looking for a table saw. But these things are relatively inexpensive, and seem to do the job well.When cheese has its picture taken, what does it say?
Hey Boss, I know my DeWal DW369 circular saw has a base that is suppose to accept an attachment to set distance from material edge to blade. Unfortunately, I have not found anyone local that sells it.
Bob, I went ahead and bought the Ridgid, not because of name but it looked the most beefy of those I could get for $600 or less locally. Surprisingly, someone had a 10% off yesterday and I abused it. So, it was $540 plus tax. That thing weighed a solid 250-300 pounds!
One problem you'll have with plywood (and one reason why using a clamp-on guide may be better) is that sheets are rarely flat, and often won't lay "nice" on a flat saw bed.
Dan, thanks and I think you and others are right about the sheet-cutting approach.
Steve, 'saw shoe'? Is this something that attaches to the circular saw base I mentioned earlier?
the "saw shoe" is actually the base of the saw, using my pc circ saw, i simply set the edge guide back 5 inches from my cut line
another tip: cutting panels that have to be perfect on both sides: first cut is maybe a sixteenth deep to score the melamine, second cut is all the way through
i cut prefinished cabinet panels everyday using these techniques with perfect results on both sides, infact i also miter them sometimes if needed
my biggest point is: many times its safer and easier to move the tool rather than the material during a cutting operation, sure an edge guide can be tedious to set up, but so is manuevering a 4x8 sheet of mdf over a small table sawcaulking is not a piece of trim
Slightly off topic ...
A few weeks back I went to Home Depot and bought some 1x12 red oak ($6/lf) in 3' long planks. I made the mistake in assuming that these were perfect in terms of factory edges and discovered (upon cutting one in half) that the factory chop on either end was not perpendicular to the plank. As it turned out I have to shave about 1/8" of the factory edge to get them perfectly square. Is this common with factory chopping?
While the rest of the planks are dang near perfect, I am now treating this finished wood as less than the factory specification. In other words, a 3' long plank will not get me 3' of usable length.
I'd never assume that the ends are square. If nothing else, they may have been chopped in the yard, vs at the factory, if there was a shortage of 3-footers and a "longage" of 6-footers.
And the chopping is apt to have splintered the ends a little, so you need to allow for some waste on the ends.
Actually, these planks looked clean. The edges were smooth as the other sides. Had I seen splintering, I would have thought about it in advance. I think these planks were milled for use as book selves, but unless one left plenty of 'gap' space (1/8" on both left and right), then they would not have worked.
I should have borrowed a framer's square and asked for a discount on the non-right-angle condition of the planks--just to be a Home Depot ball buster.
I NEVER buy to the lenght I need. I ALWAYS retrim the factory ends.Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
ditti here, i never rely on factory ends or edges on any sheet material
even if its not all busted up, the ends are usually not square, they are usually swelled by dampness, and its easy to square them up anyway, either with a router or a circ saw
how true they have to be depends on the job in hand of coursecaulking is not a piece of trim
Steve, I was talking about the edges on 1x12 planks, not sheets. I'd never trust implied trueness of factory edges on sheets--they are just to large.
While I have a full shop with stationary machinery for fabrication. I also do my own installations. My on-site tablse saw set-up consists of an 8 1/4" makita tablesaw dropped into a Rosseau Table. The fence on the rosseau slides beautifully and will cut past the center of a 4-0 wide sheet. I understand the frustration in x-cutting with clamps and 2x stock straightedge. Try a back to back edge clamp. Don't remember where I bought it but they're out there and work beautufully for cutting & routing. Good-luck. Joe
What about a panel saw? Sit's up tight to the wall, right? I have no idea how much they cost. I don't own one.
I learned to build cabinets with a radial arm saw. We didn't even bring a table saw on the job. No mitre box, no table saw, just a 10 radial. Did everything with it. Pull the motor at night and walk away from the job.
But that was a long time ago. Now, nobody even knows what they are it seems like.
Great versatile tool.
Ed. Williams
ed..... i used to have 2 RAS .. one for trim and one wtih a 16' table for framing..
still have a 10" set up in the garageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Still have my old 10" RAS. Use it occassionaly to cut lap joints in treated lumber. Before the days of compound miter saws, i use to drag it to jobs tp cut big crown mldg.
Also gives me another surface in the shop to stack stuff on as I am working:-)
Dave
Porter Cable have a table saw has a side extension that works well.
best way for a small shop to cut sheet goods is by moving the saw not the material
4x 8 sheets of anything are tricky and dangerous to cut on a small saw and a big one simply takes up too much room
simple answer, learn the techniques of using a straight edge and the saw shoe, its really easy actually, geta good straight edge like the veritas http://www.leevalley.com
soon you'll figure out how to cut ANY panel perfectly on BOTH sides including melamine sheets
tabel saws for this purpose require way too much room and are not an option in most home shops
caulking is not a piece of trim
Festool has changed my life!
Before I got it, I knew it was good, and cool, but when I saw Tom Silva use it I was nearly sold. After talking with him, I took the plunge. I'm mad that I was too cheap to do it sooner.
Measure two points on the sheet, slap the guide down, align with the marks, put the saw on the guide (adjust depth if nec.) and cut. No clamping of the guide needed! Takes longer to type than to do, literally!
Voila! perfect cuts every time.
AND, (this is SOOOOO cool), you can use the same zero clearance guide to cut bevels!!! They designed the saw so that it rotates about an axis that lines up with the edge of the blade at a point that lines exactly with the guide/wood interface point. Veeery trick!
The saw is cool, slow start, auto speed control, with a really cool repeatable depth control. Don't compare this to any run of the mill circular saw....it's way ahead. AND, the dust control and removal rocks.
AND...the system has a router that fits the guide too, so all you do is swap the saw for the router and cut dados to you hearts content for shelves and so on.
Give it serious thought. Stores in no space as well!Jake Gulick
[email protected]
CarriageHouse Design
Black Rock, CT
Here are a couple of pictures of my homemade plywood cutting guide. I make them from 1/2" ply and 1/4" ply. The 1/4" is ripped wider than the saw shoe and attcahed to the 1/2". Then I run the circular saw down the guide and cut the edge of the 1/4" exactly on the blade cut line. This eliminates measuring over from the desired cut line. I have another one for use with my cordless circular saw.
I set up a table on sawhorses to cut the plywood to manageable sizes then make the final cuts on the table saw. These pics are on my worktable which doubles as the table saw outfeed table.
turn the saw upside down an push it..works everytime
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.