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6 Tape Coats?…Welcome to drywall hell!

CplDevilDog | Posted in Construction Techniques on August 8, 2008 06:54am

Hi all,

Framing carpenter with more time than money lately. Working on my own bath remodel and figured, what the hell, I’ll hang and finish my own drywall. Its a small job and how hard can it be?

Yeah, right! Now I’m stuck in a vicious circle of mud, knockdown knife, mud, knockdown knife etc… If I don’t get the hang of this soon I’m going to have to add a few floor joists to hold the weight of the mud!

Biggest problem seems to be not getting a smooth surface. If I’m not tracking trenches with a ‘booger’ then I’m leaving ridges. So when I return for the next coat I feel like I’m starting all over.

Questions:

1. What do I do with the ‘boogers’ in the mud? Wiping them off the knife into the tray is not the right answer!

2. If I switch to Blue Top Light Sanding mud will I be able to get a smoother surface?

3. Should sand before I switch to Blue? My most recent coat looks like a soup sandwich.

4. Should I just burn the place down?

Details:

Tapered Seams: Standard Paper Tape
Inside Corners: SureCorner
Outside Corner: Standard Metal Bead
Joint Compound: Green Top Sheetrock General Purpose

I started my taping with SureCorner and Green Top General Purpose Mud

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Replies

  1. DanH | Aug 08, 2008 07:05pm | #1

    My #1 rule for mudding is that less is more. If you try to do a 3-coat job in two coats you'll end up doing 4 or 5. So spread a minimum amount of mud in each coat, not worrying too much about skips. Use a wider knife for each successive coat.

    A trick for lumps and high spots that pop up on the surface is to let them dry, then knock them off by scraping the surface with a drywall knife. Other folks swear by the wet sponge, but I find that this works better for me.

    Keep your mud clean, especially with the later coats. Keep a newspaper handy where you can scrape off one knife with another, to get rid of lumpy mud. Try to keep the bucket covered so the mud in there doesn't form lumps, and never put mud from your tray back in the bucket.

    It is an ironic habit of human beings to run faster when we have lost our way. --Rollo May
  2. paintguy | Aug 08, 2008 07:10pm | #2

    As far as the booger issue goes I would make sure that you speak to the person flicking boogers in your drywall mud and that it is not acceptable. Boogers are better on the end of a finger or wiped on a chair arm.

    After that toss out the whole container of compound because you are going to be picking out the little nuggets everytime you put a coat on it is a fight you can not win.

    The best advice I every received was to apply each coat with two passes of the knife maximum. Any more and it will cause more ridges and cause you to obsess over each microscopic line.

    Of course I am sure someone will point out that the bathroom is the toughest room to do. a bedroom would go faster with less stopping and starting in each corner and angle.

    Good luck,
    Jon

    "There is no good answer to a stupid question"
    Russian saying
  3. Jim_Allen | Aug 08, 2008 07:41pm | #3

    You sure a talkative type...three posts since 2004! It sounds like you are having fun. Congrats.

    I can relate to your dilema. I was a framer who struggled mightily with mudding too. I had no clue. Then, one day, I read the entire set of directions on the bucket. Suddenly, I realized that I was doing things all wrong. Life has improved much since then.

    Heres a few tips from a fellow framer. Dont' try to do both sides of an inside corner at the same time. Do one. Let it dry. Scrape the bumps off it. Do the other side. Let it dry. Scrap the bumps off it.

    Each time you do the inside corner series, use a wider blade and put on thinner coats. After the initial covering of the tape, the coats should be pressed in tight. Like other have said, don't fuss. Leave the holes and ridges. When everything dries, you can scrape the ridges, then fill the holes.

    The tapered joints should be easy. Fill, scrape off level. The mud will shrink and allow you to put another thin coat on. Use a wider blade each time.

    One tip. Flatten the angle on your blade. If you hold the blade square, you will not be pressing the mud in. If your blade is too stiff, it will be harder to properly press the mud without scraping it out and leaving scratches and ridges.

    The corner beads are nothing more than several successive "fill and scrape". When you finally get it filled, sand.

    Don't sand every day. Scrape only till you are putting the final finish on. After that, sand lightly.

    Boogers? Wipe them on your pants.

    Bob's next test date: 12/10/07

  4. Jim_Allen | Aug 08, 2008 07:42pm | #4

    Put a little dishsoap in your mud.

    Bob's next test date: 12/10/07

    1. hmfiic | Aug 08, 2008 07:59pm | #7

      shirley you jest, dish soap?

      never heard that one before!

      1. Jim_Allen | Aug 08, 2008 08:24pm | #8

        I jest you now. A couple ounces in a bucket will allow the knife to slide much smoother and stick less. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07

  5. User avater
    BillHartmann | Aug 08, 2008 07:55pm | #5

    If you where a "pro" then you you just fling the booger on the floor and let the floor guy wory about cleaning them up.

    I do a lot of wallpaper removal and then have to patch the drywall. Boogers are a real problem, but they are mostly bit of paper. I will scrape them off on the END of the pan. If I am getting a lot I will washer the blade off in bucket.

    But for regular mudding the problem is usually dried up mud. First the mud bucket you need to keep the sides clean. After each use I take a knife and go around the side and scrape any excess down. Then wipe it with a damp sponge or rag.

    Then take a knife and run it across the top of the mud to level it down.

    The mud on the exposed on the side will dry and get mixed in the next time you use the bucket.

    At this time I would start with a fresh bucket. I like the new DUST CONTROL light weight compounds. They make the same amount of dust, but it clumps and falls straight down instead of forum a dust cloud.

    At this point I would take a dry knife and scrap the walls to knock off any ridges or bits sticking up.

    Then lightly sand.

    Then using fresh mud put on a LIGHT coat just enough to fill an groves.

    Don't wory about any ridges that it leaves. Those are eazy to sand down.

    Then repeat if needed. At this point if you have any large hollows you can use a wide knife to level the area.

    And if you have any big lumps or buildup get a damp rag and "work" over the lumps. The water will soften then and as you go over them wipe down the lumps.

    .
    .
    A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
    1. Jim_Allen | Aug 08, 2008 07:59pm | #6

      I agree Bill. One more tip. Hollows and holes are good. They are easily filled later after everything drys. Ridges are bad. Don't leave them. If you do, on the next coat, knock them all down with whatever means necessary. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07

  6. marv | Aug 08, 2008 08:46pm | #9

    Go to http://www.drywallschool.com and watch some videos.  He makes it all look so easy.

    Tip 1: thin the mud to pudding consistancy.

    Tip 2: wet the paper tape before appyling. (prevents bubles)

    You get out of life what you put into it......minus taxes.

    Marv

    1. User avater
      IMERC | Aug 08, 2008 08:50pm | #10

      Tip 3. Add a little dish soap to the mud...

      scented pleases the HO... apple or cinammon seem to be big hits...  

      Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

      WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

      1. brad805 | Aug 09, 2008 02:38am | #20

        Ok, gotta ask.  Why? Only for scent or something else too?  Learned most of the other tricks the hard way.

        Brad

        1. User avater
          IMERC | Aug 09, 2008 02:43am | #22

          improves the cohesion...

          and the scent is good for the HO.... 

          Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

          WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

        2. User avater
          IMERC | Aug 09, 2008 02:43am | #23

          I think cohesion is the word I want.... 

          Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

          WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

  7. MSA1 | Aug 08, 2008 11:20pm | #11

    Not a pro at this but, I start with bag mud for the first two coats (on flat seams & first coat on corners). It drys harder than the bucket stuff. Then for final coat I switch to light weight in the bucket. I add a little water and mix well. This shouldl help get rid of the boogers.

    It takes a little time to learn how to work a knife. When I float out my last coat, I put more pressure along the outer edge of the seam to kind of feather it back.

    When you sand, dont try to tunnel though to china, I mainly take the edge (of the mud seam) off and lightly go across the whole seam for smoothness.

    Its really something to learn. Take your time you'll get the hang of it.

     

     

     

    Family.....They're always there when they need you.

    1. DanH | Aug 08, 2008 11:40pm | #12

      Yeah, in keeping with my "less is more" comment, if you have to sand off a lot of mud you put too much on in the first place.
      It is an ironic habit of human beings to run faster when we have lost our way. --Rollo May

      1. rasher | Aug 09, 2008 12:02am | #13

        A trick I learned this year is to use a high-build "surfacer" type primer. It's really thick, like nacho cheese, and fills in lots of gaps, voids, whatever. Really makes my hack mudding jobs look much much better. Sherwin Williams makes one. Super cheap and real good.

        1. DanH | Aug 09, 2008 12:10am | #15

          When skim coating a surface that's got lots of paper dings I find it helpful to first prime the surface, to bind up the loose paper.
          It is an ironic habit of human beings to run faster when we have lost our way. --Rollo May

    2. User avater
      BillHartmann | Aug 09, 2008 12:05am | #14

      "Not a pro at this but, I start with bag mud for the first two coats (on flat seams & first coat on corners). It drys harder than the bucket stuff."What is "bag" mud.The bad mud that I buy comes in a plastic bag put in a carboard box to hold it's shape.Exactly the same thing that is in the bucket, except the bucket.And it like the bucket comes in several different flavors.Or you you mean the dry mud that you have to mix with water? Never used the stuff?Or do you mean the setting compound?.
      .
      A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.

      1. MSA1 | Aug 09, 2008 12:19am | #16

        Should have clarified. "Bag Mud" is the setting compound. 

         

         

        Family.....They're always there when they need you.

  8. ClaysWorld | Aug 09, 2008 01:40am | #17

    Just say no to boogers

    clean up the bucket when you put it away with a worn scotch brite and water on top of the mud. poor it off at next start and then mix a bit.

    1. rasher | Aug 09, 2008 01:56am | #18

      Maybe a dumb question: I have one of those hoop-type mud mixers. Do I need to clean it completely every time I use it or what? I've always figured that any mud left on it will flake into clean mud and so I've always spent like 5 minutes cleaning it completely every time...

      1. DonCanDo | Aug 09, 2008 02:32am | #19

        I'm not going to be of much help here other than to say I don't pre-mix joint compound.  I know, I know... I'm supposed to mix it first as any good drywaller would, but I don't do a lot of drywall and I've found that if I work it back and forth between 2 taping knives (a 12" and a 6") a couple of times, it loosens it up good enough for me to use.

        When I need a larger quantity, I mix it after scooping it into a mud pan or sometimes I'll mix up the top layer right in the bucket using one of my taping knives.

        This means I don't use any additives (like soap or water).  I do use the regular compound (or Durabond) for the first coat and topping compound (or EasySand) for the top coats.  Lately I've been using Sheetrock's Dust Control compound for the top coats.

        I've been tempted to get a "potato masher", but so far I haven't really needed it.

      2. User avater
        IMERC | Aug 09, 2008 02:42am | #21

        clean....

        no sense contaminating yur new batch of mud... 

        Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->

        WOW!!! What a Ride!Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!

      3. ClaysWorld | Aug 09, 2008 04:04am | #24

        Either keep in a water bucket or clean it cause it helps grow little boogers. It will flake off and contaminate the mud.

        If you keep a water bucket handy you can scrap/clean the knives into it and such it just goes to the bottom, as you work and if you need to loosen up the mud just poor some out, the top water is still good.

  9. Danno | Aug 09, 2008 05:36am | #25

    You've gotten a lot of advice--I don't know how you are going to sort out good from bad, good luck with that (though most is good).

    Here's my take on mudding: As others said, always scrape the sides of the mud bucket and I don't scrape it down--I scrape and use that so it doesn't have a chance to dry. I open the bucket of mud and use it--rarely mix it. Sometimes if it is really stiff, I'll cross hatch it with my knife and dump about a half cup of water in there and smush it around to mix--just mixing the top about two-three inches only. I work with two knives, no tray. I think trays are hard to keep clean and lead to dry mud making streaks in your work.

    I use one big knife as a hawk and remove from it with a smaller knife for the initial coats. I often scrape the "holding" knife free of mud every so often to keep it from getting gunky too. I do as someone else mentioned and work both knives, keeping them clean. Position the mud at the front edge and middle of the knife. Any time you pick up dried mud lumps or nibs of paper, scrape those off into a garbage can or any other way to get rid of them. If the mud on your knife is lumpy, discard that whole knife of mud and get fresh. Keep your tools clean.

    Use thin layers--easier IMO to fill than to remove. I never sand until just before the last coat and after it and then as little as possible. I scrape off ridges on the first coats with my clean mud knife, holding it almost perpendicular to the surface unless there is something that can be shaved off. The second coat with a wider knife fills in grooves and divots. Scrape that off to remove ridges when it's dried. To be honest, I usually end up doing more than three coats, but they are thin coats.

    When applying mud, if you need more, hold the knife at a shallow angle (handle close to surface and little pressure). To apply less mud, lift the handle so the knife is at a steeper angle.

    I could show you all of this in about two minutes--it is hard to explain in words.

    Number one, however is to keep your tools and the mud bucket clean and free of dried lumps of mud and other trash. Never put mud back into the bucket that you've had in your pan or on the knife you use as a hawk. I also take the mud out of the bucket and load it on my hawk knife with a three or four inch wide putty knife which I keep stuck in the mud in the bucket and I often keep the lid on the bucket while I work to keep it from drying out and to keep saw dust and other crud from around the job site out of it.

    1. BradG | Aug 10, 2008 07:21pm | #32

      Danno has the best advice yet to solve the "booger" problem: once mud leaves the bucket it never goes back in. Keep two buckets near by - one for "used" mud from cleaning your knives and one for water to constantly cleaning your knives / tools. Keep a scrubby pad+sponge around in the bucket.

      After that (and it solved TONS of issues for me) here are a few more tips:

      always use a paddle mixer at the beginning of the day to keep your mud smooth

      "hot" mud, or the setting stuff, is great for everything but the taping. I like silverset 40. Mix it well and clean your bucket after 30 minutes so it doesn't set up.

      less is more - go for many thin coats

      use a 10" knife to scrape between steps - don't sand unless you really over-applied. After scraping take a minute to use a big bristle brush (like the paper hangers use) to dust your walls, esp. in small rooms (bathroom). Lots of little corners and stuff create tons of nooks for potential boogers to lurk

      on the JLC site there are some good videos of the basics that helped me.

      I don't do a lot of drywall and only do it if budget is tight and it is less than 10 sheets. Once you wacth a crew come in with bazookas and do a better job than your best job in 1/5th the time then you'll throw your tools away and buy them cold beer. 

  10. wood4rd | Aug 09, 2008 03:21pm | #26

    1. flick the boogers.

    2. yes

    3, yes
     
    4. not unless your HO insurance is current.

    5. do you know any tapers that need some framing done?



    Edited 8/9/2008 8:30 am ET by wood4rd

  11. bobbys | Aug 09, 2008 10:45pm | #27

    I keep lying to myself that im a great taper yet everytime i mess up and wind up calling my taper friend to bail me out of jail..

    now he took my knives and hawk from me and im branded, never to tape agin

    1. tsekas | Aug 10, 2008 01:13am | #28

      That was funny.

       

  12. alwaysoverbudget | Aug 10, 2008 04:54am | #29

    ok this is for us that can't run a knife,everyone else move on.

    go to sherwin williams and buy a  "magic trowel" this is a 14" rubber squgee. there will be instructions on the package about how to use a paint roller to put the mud on the hit it with the magic trowel. it works pretty darn well for us that can't spread mud. you still do 3 coats. larry

    heres a link http://www.texmaster.com/magictrowel.html

    oh and by the way don't worry about what your momma told you,just eat the  buggers,that way there gone.

    if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?



    Edited 8/9/2008 9:55 pm by alwaysoverbudget

  13. User avater
    dedhed6b | Aug 10, 2008 05:14pm | #30

    Usually framers arn't around when the mudding takes place,but the best way to learn is to watch some body who knows what they are doing. Most important is knowing when to leave it alone,it took me a while to learn that one.

    1. Danno | Aug 10, 2008 06:26pm | #31

      Good point you had about knowing when to leave it alone. The more you fuss and fool with it and try to achieve a perfect finish, the more you mess it up. Quick, thin, coats in a couple passes is the best way. Leave the grooves and ridges and take off the ridges when it's dry and fill the grooves with the next coat. Over the screws, I just make two quick light swipes with the knife in an "X". One swipe puts mud on, the next swipe pushes it into the dimple and removes most of the rest. Zip-zip, you're done.

  14. arcflash | Aug 10, 2008 08:21pm | #33

    I like those corner knives, speeds things up a bit for me. Wet your tape before putting it on the joint, one of those trade secrets. I start thinning the mud with water sometimes as soon as the second coat. I will use a wet sponge for a particularly stubborn area. Make sure your knives stay clean, and unload them often. Bend a little curve on your knives, the good brands already have them. I go 6,10,12", stay to opposite sides of the joint with the first two passes, lightly float down the middle with last pass when your happy. Good luck, mudding is the most difficult part of the whole process and practice makes perfect.

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