hey guys,
i got a ridgeboard, on a house(gable roof) I’m doing that spans 60′ plus 2 exposed 16″ lookouts. The rafters are all 2×12 and the length is about 21’6″. I’ve have ordered 2 LVL @1 1/4 x14″ deep.I am thinking of arrow splicing the with a two foot lap and liquid nails. I know a lot of people down here would just splice the two with a piece of OSB, but there’s got to be a better way. i think an arrow splice would suffice. Any suggestions?
RTC
Use these assembly techniques when installing crown risers and molding to minimize visible gaps and nail holes.
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Replies
please help me out! i need you!
Without collar ties that ridge is substantially weaker than what an engineer would specify. Collar ties would help but thay should be in the bottom third of the roof system. I would ask for proper engineering for a span of that size.
Wood is Good
Adam Greisz
>> Collar ties would help but thay should be in the bottom third of the roof system. <<
Bottom third? Haven't we discussed that about 10 times?
i believe they go in the upper 2/3.
RTC
Upper third.
I think that's what I meant to say,but thanks.
RTC
we will have 2x10 collar ties in the uper 2/3 of the roof. 60' ridge span:1&3/4 x 14" ridge , 24' 2x12 rafters with the tail included,everythings open inside, except lofts which are basically gable walls on the inside 2/3 of the house. sitting on top of icf walls, sitting on top of 3' beams in the slab.everybody makes such a big deal over everything.thanks.
RTC
RTC
Edited 1/20/2006 3:01 am ET by RTC
It is a ridgeboard not a ridge beam. The splice does not matter.
the splice should definintely matter if you take pride in your work. that's why i posted here.
RTC
"the splice should definintely matter if you take pride in your work. that's why i posted here."Rtc,Your 100% correct about taking pride in your work. The only thing is with a ridge you don't need to make the arrow cut at all. The ridge isn't going anywhere and the arrow cut isn't going to hold the ridge up from dropping down either.The second one in my drawing you don't need also but it's easier to work with. You set the ridge first the way that the second one will sit right on top.The quality of the arrow cut and the other cut is the same. There's just no reason to make that cut. If you want, that's fine but you asked about the cut and my answer to you anyway is you don't need it. I've never once mad the arrow cut for a ridge before. I've only used that cut on hips and valleys because when I first started framing they had no microlams.Your collar ties specked at the right height on the plans will hold everything in place.There was a thread on this a while back also.http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=48714.11Joe Carola
Edited 1/20/2006 7:04 am ET by Framer
thanks joe i appreciate your response.
RTC
you probably posted a tad late in the day to get a good set of response.
I have no idea what an arrow splice is, but I would think it's gotta be better than the alternative.
Perhaps someone will catch this in the morning.
Good luck.
E
yourcontractor@aol.com
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Why bother using LVLs? If it's just a ridge board you're wasting money.
If it's a structural ridge beam with supports at various points, you neded to splice it where the designer specified that it be spliced.
RTC,
You don't have to do the arrow splice at all. If you want to do something you can come over 2' and cut a triangle out on one side and do the opposite on the other so one sits on top of the other like in my second picture. The first picture is what I used to do 20 years ago before microlams came out on hips and valleys but never on ridges.
Butting the ridge half way on a rafter makes no sense to me because all it does is split the 3/4" of ridge you have. If you do the triangle way everything is solid.
well i agree with ya about not making joints on 3/4 of an inch .I don't even join facia like that i always use splice blocks makes a nicer job and i can nail it easier my self
you sound like a real carpenter
I
i'm going to go ahead and do the arrow splice like in one of your pics.the one that looks like a wedge. that's how i was taught by my former mentor.thanks.
RTC
Edited 1/20/2006 3:02 am ET by RTC
rtc... taking pride in your work and wasting time and labor are two different things..
learning new tricks is also taking pride in your work
the engineer spec'd a 2x12 ridge and you changed it to an LVl.. why ?
you want to do an arrow joint.. fine..... but joe's triangle lap will do the job.. ( thanks joe.. my 2x12 ridge will have a triangle lap now too )
it's a ridge.. simply an interface between a pair of rafters..
they used to be 1x material.. and they worked fine..
so spend your money and your effort on those LVL's , but don't come back asking for advice if you don't really want it..Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"they used to be 1x material.. and they worked fine.."
There are a couple of 100 year old horse barns in this county that run for about 120 feet that don't even use a ridge board. The rafters just connect flush against each other where the ridge board would be. These roofs have barely a sag after 100 years. My non-expert guess is that one purpose of the ridge board is to make it easier to get the rafters in place. I'll get a photo the next time I am by one.
>> taking pride in your work and wasting time and labor are two different things. <<
TAKING PRIDE IN YOUR WORK AND WASTING TIME AND LABOR ARE 2 DIFFERENT THINGS. Sorry, I just had to repeat that out loud!! and, I'd like to add 'wasting time and labor and money'. This is what seperates a professional from an ameture - knowing what is good enough. Is he going to screw the roof framing together too? :-) LOL
Matt,
He's 23 years old and trying to learn something from the professionals in this forum. Do you expect him not to be confused? In the search for answers, he needs to ask the questions he does.
"This is what seperates a professional from an ameture - knowing what is good enough. Is he going to screw the roof framing together too? :-) LOL "
What separates the men from the boys is the quality of the product. I have thrown guys off my jobs for saying "that's good enough". If your not getting paid well enough to produce the quality necessary to satisfy the client, yourself, and the architect (in that order), you didn't bid correctly.
Overbuilding is only a waste if your not getting paid for it. If you are more concerned with speed than you are with quality, you bid too low, or you are in the wrong market section. I tell my subs and my own guys that I am not impressed with how fast they do something, but the quality of the finished product that they create. Granted, they better produce it in an efficient manner, but I don't get paid from my clients for speed, I get paid for quality.
I'm not trying to be a **ckhead, so don't take me wrong.
The CM
I don't think we are opposite sides of the fence. And yes, I have thrown guys off of my jobs for lack of quality of workmanship too. And I positively hate those "good enough" type sayings!
But... once you have bid a job, are you gonna substitute a LVL in for a 2x12 ridge board specified by the eng/arch just because an LVL is better than a 2x12? That was one of the things that jumped out at me when I read Mike's post. As far as an "arrow joint" in a ridge board, I just don' see the purpose, I mean, why not do a dove tail along the length of the board end :-) ? Joe'c triangle seems like a great addition of quality without hurting efficiency.
I guess nobody liked my crack about screwing framing together. :-)
Matt,
You are right. We are not on opposite sides of the fence. I agree with you that with fixed bids you don't add structure to play hero and loose money. It was the approach that bothered everyone. Sorry if I came across to strong.
The CM
Edited 1/20/2006 9:00 pm ET by the cm
Edited 1/20/2006 9:01 pm ET by the cm
Most of your posts are snotty and without useful info for the thread. Try harder.
OK - I'll take that into consideration. And you are right I didn't add anything in this particular case. Not sure why though I'm the one getting flamed since I was simply repeating what one of "the popular guys" said. And I did like very much what he said.
Matt,
"This is what seperates a professional from an ameture - knowing what is good enough."
I submit for you consideration that what differentiates between an amateur and a tradesman is the knowledge of what is NOT good enough.
SamT
>> I submit for you consideration that what differentiates between an amateur and a tradesman is the knowledge of what is NOT good enough. << Great point. But there is a point when better than required is a waste and becomes overbuilding. That is one of the responsibility of whoever is in charge of the project's overall outcome both from a quality standpoint and with regard to the budget. A tradesmen is but one part of the equation, and sure a framer might frame with all interior non-load bearing walls on 12" centers if paid to do so but is it the right way to build?
Put another way, once you become somewhat expierenced building quality is not so much of a challenge as is building quality and value.
Edited 1/20/2006 7:54 pm ET by Matt
first of all it's a cutom home with funds availabe, I 'm the GC and the framer and the trim guy and the siding man. I can do it all at age 24 believe it or not. The house is ICF usually only done on perimeter walls. The HO wanted all walls interior icf as well , I talked him down to 2 interior, the only load bearing. The engineer is off his rocker the architecht couldn't draw a circle,no spec sheet. I think 14" LVL's will be fine.
RTC
OK- you're 24 years old, and neither an engineer nor an architect, and yet you're passing judgment on their work? And you do that on the basis of WHAT?
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing...
the engineer spec'd a 2x12 ridge on 2x12 commons. I like my ridge to stick out from under the bottom of the rafters. If you to one look at the basically one page of plans I have to work with that are out of scale and have been revised several times over without being redrawn.Nothing is included in the plans not even a door & window schedule, no elevations,no cabinet dimensions,headerheights,ect. I know what good plans look ,my brother works as a partner in a commercial architechture im in Houston currently designing a multi mil. complex in the medical center on the new light rail. I can easily work a good set of plans, it simple. I can easily solve this problem on my own, also.
RTC
RTC,
Didn't the town / city / municipality require a clear set of detailed plans along with a structural framing plan when the permits were pulled? What was submitted to the building department for approval?
The CM
I agree with the others here: somebody didn't pay the archy or the engineer to do a complete job, and tried to get away with some concept sketches or preliminary plans. You say yourself that you know what a complete set of plans looks like because of your own brother's work, so add two and two: somebody didn't pay for a complete set of plans!
Don't put yourself into the position of practicing beyond your competence. By doing so you put yourself at serious risk of a lawsuit if something goes wrong.
As SamT said, the difference between a professional and an amateur or a hack is that a professional knows when something ISN'T good enough. To that I'd like to add another qualifier: a professional is wise enough to understand the limits of what they know, especially in relation to areas of their practice which can cause serious harm if done wrong (i.e. designing and building a structural frame is one prime example!). A true professional's respect for what they don't know DEEPENS as they gain experience- it doesn't make them overconfident.
Have a talk with the engineer and respectfully ask him what's going on, since the plans submitted under his signature or seal are incomplete and missing important structural details. Be respectful- don't go in there with guns blazing or you'll get nowhere, any more than he would do if he came after you for building it wrong without knowing you or your level of skill. If he's been ripped off, it'll be a heads-up for you about the client. If he's made an oversight and you help him catch it, he'll owe you one big time- and he'll be more than helpful to you on the rest of the job. Or maybe he's not an engineer- he's just claiming to be one- in which case you need to report him to the state to get him put out of business.
Listen to the wise folks here. And take care to explain your situation the best way you can so they can help you.
just read my tag line...
knowledge witout experience is just information....
Charlie,
How true that is.
(put an "h" in there)
The CM
"The engineer is off his rocker the architecht couldn't draw a circle,no spec sheet. I think 14" LVL's will be fine.""But, I'll figure it out, I always do(somehow). It'll be the strongest house in Flour Bluff, and that's what the HO wants. thanks"OK, let's get down to brass tacks, Young'un.
I don't know why you think that 14" LVL will do just fine....it takes some engineeering to figure that out. Seat of my pants would guess that you wpould be needing a doubled 18" LVL for this.I'll tell you why I think what I think and you can tell me why you think what you think. One of us at least can learn something and the HO can be more sure to get the strongest house in Flour Bluff, no bluffing!Take a normal roof frame. It is a triangle. In order for the peak to go down,( ridge sag) the twin legs ( rafters) have to slide out. It takes a load from above to exert enough force to make this movement. The bottom chord ( Rafter tie or cieling joist) of this triangle prevents this from happening.In the design you describe, this bottom chord is missing, so any weight (load) placed on the roof from above - sheathing, shingles, snow, wind, roofers, trees, etc - is working to puish the twin legs ( rafters) down and out. Since you have no cieling joists to resist this movement, you need another way to hold that weight up in the air, or as the rafters slide down and out, the ridge will sag, and the walls will tilt away from each other. Now part of what I meant about something else going on, is that this house could be designed with addons, wings, or buttresses that have shear designed in to prevent that wall tilt froim happeneing. From what I hear so far, I think not, so the walls will tilt and the ridge will sag - that is unless the ridge is designed to be strong enough to hold up itself, the weight of the roof structure, and the live loads that can be reasonabley expected to be placed on it. Well, half that load anyway. The other half will be borne by the walls.So let's see - you have a building that is what? I forget 32x60?
That means that each free spanning one foot length of the ridge is going to have to hold the load on a roof area that is 16 square feet.
Typical dead load for that assembly would be about 15# per sq ft.
The requireed live laod varies from another 15# to as much as 120# per sq ft in the snowy mountains. So if you are in say misissippi or Alabama or maybe Louisianna or georgia, you might be allowed to build with only 15-20# live load design. Figure the live and dead loads at 35#/sq ft and you have a load of 560# on every lineal foot of that ridge. So if it has support at every 20' with no splices in the distance ( sixty feet long is way different than sixty foot span for structural purposes) then each segment of the ridge beam is to be expected to support 20 x 560 = 11,200# That is over five tons! Imagine taking all the other goop away from the discussion and prop that beam up and brace iot off so that it has nothing else on it. Now balance a couple of Ford Explorers up on it.You suppose it will hold up and not fail?I don't know, but all you need to do is to go to the yard where the LVLs are sold, and tell them exactly hopw you will be using them, and what loads you expect on them, and they will do the engineering for free. The manufacturers provide the retailers of the product with the software top do this because it is in their best interest to make sure their products are used properly, because if this ridge collapses and the HO is looking for someone to sue, they will be looking first at you, then the engineer, then the manufacturer, and anybody else along the way they can pick up and throw in the pot of stink soup.Collar ties were mentioned. The design purpose of a collartie is to prevent the ridge of the roof from acting as a hinge and allowing the roof to open up in high winds like a tornado. They are placed in the upper third of the roof for that purpose. They do not add any acceptable strength to the ridge. Rather, in an underdesigned system, they transfer the stresses directed to the ridge to the center of the rafters, adding to the likelihood that the rafters temselves will sag or break.For what it's worth, I'll agree with you that the engineer has lost his hat, and the updraft has openned a leak in his cranium if he thought that a 2x12 would handle this job, but then, you sound like you have re-engineered other parts of the house if you eliminated some other ICF walls. There could have been some factors in the ICF that were intended to resist the outward thrust of the sagging rafters/ridge. That is the next portion of what I had in mind when i said that there must be other things going on here.I'm not an engineer, I don't have the original plans or the as-built plans, so all I can do is specualte. mostly, this is to open a window for you and shed a little light on what we are trying to talk about here. Kind of a primer on these structural issues.
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paul... one of us is misreading RTC...
i read that it is a ridge board..... your read ridge beam..
no way can it be a beam.... at least not with a 60 ' SPAN..
it's a ridge board..
but hey, whadda i no ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
dam, RTC... why are you fooling around with 1 3/4 x 14" LVL's ?
try one of these..
a 6x18 x 36' Anthony Power beam..... and it's only spanning 20'
View ImageMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
a friend warned me against them because they have a crown.?I have installed one 5.5x16x32' for a floor
RTC
that wasn't my point:
either you are grossly over spec'ing your ridge BOARD
or you are sorely underspec'ing your ridge BEAM
14" LVL's give you not much in terms of beam strength
but they are simply window dressing as a ridge boardMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
It's obvious that RTCs' previous teachers have left dangerously wide holes in his information set.
SamT
Let's go easy on him if he's willing to learn. Sounds like that is why he is here.He learns well from us and think of the hundreds of potential HOs enjoying living under his roofs after you and I are dead under daisies.Alternate case, think of all the lawyers children who will be well dressed.
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Piffin,
I know. It just hurts to see this young guy who's got the gonads it takes to be in this biz maybe looking to get burned real bad and it turns him away from construction.
He just needs a slap up side the head with a 2x4, and then a few years with a good mentor. I know now that's what I needed way back then. Or at least Breaktime.
SamT
Can't wait to see these pics.
The CM
"He just needs a slap up side the head with a 2x4,"It's looking like this one might be asking for a 4x4.
It's such a shame.
I'm starting to think/wonder now if the HO deserves this...
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Paul is right, it looks like you're being taken for a ride. If you continue with this project, you better get things straightened out right now. Start with the HO.
The CM
This sounds like a multi-span beam with spans of 21'+/-...? And it's a ridge beam and not a ridge board? If so, the ridge sounds a little undersized, but I assume you have engineering for it. The splice will almost certainly have to be over a column and like Boss says, splice it how and where the engineer specifies. If you're just buying stuff that looks about right and going for it... no one here can help you. Beam sizing like that costs me $100-200 with a stamped calc and a detail to work from. Not a place to save money.
it's really hard to explain over the internet. All the rafters are 2x12 @ 16 O.C. i have 4 gable walls almost equally spaced across the 60' span sitting onn top of icf walls. Plus 2x10 collar tie 7' down the rafter. Doesn't that sound like plenty of bracing? the engineer called for a 2x12 ridge.thanks
RTC
Edited 1/20/2006 2:53 am ET by RTC
If there are four support points evenly spaced, then you do NOT have a 60' span, it is more like a 20' span from point to point. So you use three separate ridges. Whether this is a board or a beam is in the eyues of the engineer, since it's his neck on the block. this must be down south, cause no way would it hold up around here.You must be leaving something out of your description, cause it sounds to me like a beam that needs to be about three times a large.Collar ties do not provide much in structural loading support. Rafter ies - in the lower third, do. there must be more going on in the overaall design that doesn't show here.
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there is more going on and half of it is the HO and under eng. in more ways than one.Being that I'm only 24 doesn't help much on the experience factor.
But, I'll figure it out, I always do(somehow). It'll be the strongest house in Flour Bluff, and that's what the HO wants. thanks
RTC
RTC,
You're a bit confused.
The CM
Another way it could be designed would be to have a center beam running the 20' way and the 16' way perpendicular to the rafters and then your ceiling joists would run parallel with the rafters nailed along side them and then nailed into the beam off hangers or the beam could be dropped and they sit on top.That way you would have to post down on the inside walls to a column and footing underneath.Here's the floor plan I drew before but look at the left side where I changed it to what I've just described and the right side stayed the same as you described.Joe Carola
this is plausible and problably more expensive but i like it.too late we're setting the ridge next week . I try to pos pics to clarify this whole thing. your floor plan is flopped around
RTC
"too late we're setting the ridge next week "so why'd you bother asking if you're gonna be bull-headed and go ahead with something won't work?oh well, we tried. I had such high hopes for you, son.
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Unbelievable.
The CM
I just asked about a splice i didn't ask to have my roof eng.. i have that under control. i will post pics soon.
RTC
Kid, ya got a crew here with multiple hundreds of years of cumulative experience trying to tell ya to CYA 'cuz you got it hanging out in the breeze.
If you don't wanna listen up. . .well it's your azz.
One can lead a horse to the watering hole. . .
Unique. Hunh! I threw that T-shirt away 30 years ago 'cuz it wuz worn out and raggedy.
" i have that under control. i will post pics soon."thanks. That will be entertaining!
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Listen up
The reason you asked about the splice was because you recoignized that the situation was a structural one. You followed up by claiming the reason behind your thinking was that you wanted to be proud of your work and do the best possible bulletproof job you could. All of that conversation from you is engineering/structural oriented.Then after having a good half dozen experienced repliers that what you plan to do in at least the center section of this building and probably the rest of it is doomed to failure ( failure here is defined at the least by a scary noticeable sag in the ridge beam and roof lines that will take away from the future value and saleability of the home, and at the worst by a collapse that could hurt of kill somebody) you announce that you intend to go ahead with using wjhat you now know is inadequate to the task.You like having your ride beam show from beneath the rafters.
This is good - because by putting your blinders on and bulling ahead now before the engineer does his thing, you are setting up a scenario where the only solution he will be able to offer is to insert a monster beam under that winpy little LVL after the fact. It will cost you a whole lot more to do that then, than to do it right in the first place. Trying to save your azz here, kiddoNow, I'm going to go a bit further with looking into your situation. Maybe the problem is not with the HO. Maybe you are the source of all this difficulty. Maybe the archy and engineer decided you had such a cowboy attitude about changing things and ignoring good advise, that they refused to provide plans for you to work from, so they could avoid the liability that is sure to be created by the way you are going at this.
Maybe you came along and implied or even directly told the HOs that you could "save" them bucketsful of money by re-doing the plans. Maybe they are innocent enough to believe you in your ignorant self confidence, as you ignorantly believe in yourself.
But if that is the scenario, what neither of you are realizing in this cost counting is that for every thousand dollars you "save" them now, they will have to spend ten grand in repairs later. That is far more than false economy now that you have been forwarned. It is a form of fraud.
If you provide them with false information for the end goal of putting their money into your pockets, you need to check your motives.
Is it greed? you want the bucks saved from doing it right?
Is it envy? you want the power, prestige, respect that accrues to the architects and engineers and want to usurp their position without doing the training ?
Is it ego? you want the recognition for doing it all yourself?
Is it pride? you can't admit that the beam you have is too samll and are afraid to admit to the owners that you need to add more beef there?Regardless of what your intent and motivation is here, I am sure that the intent of the owners is not to have a house that looks like a scene from a disaster film in a few years. You need to figure a way to be sure they get what they are paying for, or you will need to find some other Flour Bucket town to live in. Your reputation will take a big hit wheere you are as people drive by and see what you have done to this house. They'll nickname it the "RTC Swayback". That will cost you far more in lost work in the future than you can possibly save on this one beam now.One more piece of advise -Print this thread out.
Fold it up
Put it in your hip pocket
Sit down
Let the advise here soak in
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Read this whole set of posts at one time.
This houses open structure is very similar to the first addition I built for one of my builders for his brother.
He had a 2 page set of plans with few details.
It had 14' walls(2X4) with arched windows 12' tall side by side,no ceiling joists or collar ties.
After looking at the plans I told the builder that I didn't think the walls would be strong enough nor the ridge adequate.
Talked him into going with 2x6 walls and getting an engineer to design a ridge system.
The engineer's design was a doulbed up laminate beam bolted and glued and the rafters were doubled up and glued on 12" center.
My point being was I had no clue as to what was needed but I did know my gut feeling was that this was not going to work.
The funny part was the home owner and the GC both thought I was being paranoid because an architect had designed it so it should be alright.So all I said was I will pay for the engineers letter just to be sure and we went from there.
These guys have been my friends and customers for the last 10 years and both have aknowledged that I made the right call.
When hurricane Elvis struck Memphis with a 100 mile straight line wind a 200 year oak fell on that ridge beam and didn't phase it but it put a bunch of holes in the decking his 2 and 3 year old daughters bedrooms were under that beam and he has thanked me a dozen times since then.
ANDYSZ2
I MAY DISAGREE WITH WHAT YOUR SAYING BUT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH YOUR RIGHT TO SAY IT.
Remodeler/Punchout
Shalom in building!
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Paul,
Words of wisdom once more. That was a work of art.
The CM
I finally read the whole thread...You and Sam and Joe really, really tried. I hope some one in texas has a cell phone handy wit the "9"-"1"- already punched in ready for the "1'' and send key.
I can relate to the kid's attitude, Godd know I was just as bad way back then..( well, up till last week, when the Nyquil wore off,,LOL).
I wish him the best of his educational yrs, hope he can stick around and enjoy the rest of them..
You guys did good.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Save a few posts, fill in your Profile, we can help!
Tanks,( where, oh where 'ave the H's all gone?)This is one I rteally wanted to see have a good conclusion. Real chance to not only solve the immediate problem at hand, but to educate someone so they realy know the basis behind what they do so the next hundred houses they build will be better too. But htisis now a case where it looks like he will be bringing our wole industry a notch lower
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this has gotten way out of hand.i work by the hour for the HO he got his plans eng. and then changed. I don't care what he does I just want it to work. I've never met the eng., I don't even think the arch has a real licesnse, and I've never met her either.
I guess it's a little hard for me to communcate through a keyboard. I'll learn how to pos pics.
please, no one else tell me how dumb I am until I post some pictures.
RTC
I really don't believe anyone here thinks you are dumb, just stubborn and full of yourself. We really are trying to help.
Out of hand - maybe so. It was probably out of hanmd on siote before you posted here. Let's help you get it in hand. your hand. Under your control instead of a HO with tight bank account...Take yourself back to the second post you made here where you said, " 68410.2 in reply to 68410.1
please help me out! i need you!"OK, Maybe you have a hard time with verbal text, but you are getting better.Now it's clear that you are not the GC, The HO is acting as his own GC. You may be simply an employee with no liability here except to do your best.That would include verifying that what engineering you are handed is complete. Does it have a stamp - can you call the engineer and ask him details about what he speced like several suggested above? The time is billable. You get paid same for making the call as for running the saw. Tell the HO that "This engineering is just not right the way it is shown here. I have consulted with several professionals who have clued me in that this needs to be redone or clarified."
You are intelligent and have enough confidence to let them know what I've told you here - that if it is done wrong, it will cost them a lot more to replace and repair later and that proper engineering now is the only thing that is proper to do. I've even told you one way to get that done for free at the yard that sells the structural lumnber, though since explaining that, I think that is probably not the best way to go about things. You want them to pay for a stamped, signed structural plan by a licensed engineer. And you want to keep a copy of that in your files.
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Been thinking about your problem a little more. when you talk to the engineer, pose the possibility of stringing cables and turnbuckles through to take the place of rafter ties if the owners will accept it, or using cables to create resistance to the tension in the ridge beam.But
Those would have to be VERY carefully detailed by the engineer and you would have to VERY carefully follow every singe detail in how he specs it for it to mean anything.
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I've been watching this thread but haven't taken the time to participate because you have been getting some very invested advice from extremely accomplished and experienced professionals. I have also been putting in 18 hour days on my own house REPLACING A RIDGE BOARD WITH AN ENGINEERED STRUCTURAL RIDGE BEAM. I do a lot of work with a structural engineer creatively remediating structural problems in existing buildings, and the most frustrating part is knowing that it takes 10 to 20 times as much work and expense to repair as it takes to do it properly in the first place. Piffin and the others here at breaktime have made a caring and informative attempt to illuminate the issues, so I won't belabour that part. I will however describe what I am trying to straighten out. It is a 36' long cape (10/12 pitch) with a 32' shed dormer (4/12 pitch). There are ceiling joists at top plate height nailed into the side of the rafters and the top plate. The 6' studs in the front wall of the dormer have short rafters that bear against them at 30", and from there up are bowed out 2" from plumb with about a third of them actually split. all the upstairs walls are about 2" out of plumb and the ridge (board) sags 2". With the bows and sags set into the wood over time, this is a nightmare to rectify. We are cutting out the existing ridge, installing a ridge beam of 3-1 3/4x14" LVL's bolted per schedule and posted not quite in the middle. Then we will pull everything as close as we can get it to where it is supposed to be, and reattach it all. I will try to attach some photos, if they are too large perhaps someone would be kind enough to resize them, I haven't had time to figure that out yet. MY POINT IS: unless there is some substantially redeeming info missing here, LISTEN UP!! You have been given the gift of some very caring advice and information. Please take heed, daniel
It might be 60 feet long, but there is now way that it spans sixty feet
and if you are splicing it, it can only be a ridge baord and not a structural ridge beam.
get us up some correect information for some beneficial responces, eh?
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He says it in his first post that it's a ridge board that spans 60' so I take it that the rdige is 60' with 16" fly rafters. Why is anyone assuming that it's a structural ridge. If it is he's got big problems.
"Why is anyone assuming that it's a structural ridge"He is the one who seemed to think it was, indicating so by the scenario he proposed. I thuink he was confused or just plain don't know the difference, which is why I asked for clarification.
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What is the roof pitch? How are you going to fasten the collar ties? I see a lot of stress happening there.
It all depends how it is on his plans. I framed an addition last year with the front wall 2x12 rafters 24'sitting on a 2x8 16' high wall with a cathedral ceiling and the back rafters sat on the second floor plate about 38' back. The owner didn't like the collar ties so I came in 24' to the end of the great room wall and came up 16' the same as the front wall and pit rafters in to make it look like a new gable inside the house. I nailed the new rafters along side the front rafters and nailed them into the collar ties and then cut the collar ties out flush to the bottom of the new rafters leaving the collar ties in. That was designed buy the Architect after I gave him the suggestion and he revised the plans and they worked.Who really knows what RTC has but it has to be designed right.Her's a shot of the rafte4rs outside and the second shot is what we did afetr we cut the collar ties out.Joe Carola
Should have been designed that way to begin with Joe. good one for you and glad you have an architect willing to work with you. Everybody wins that way
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A picture is worth a thousand words..but I guess I'm a little slow here. I think I need a blueprint or one of your nice drawings,side view, so I can see how those rafters arent spreading due to load. I am new to this and book learned in statics but I am confused as to why those walls wont spread without some kind of collar tie. I realize terminology on the left coast differs from the right and also from top to bottom.
Keith
Keith,I just drew a cross section rteal quick for you. I hope it makes sense.Joe Carola
the pitch is a 6/12 and i will nail the collar ties with about 10 nails in each side.
"the pitch is a 6/12 and i will nail the collar ties with about 10 nails in each side.""The rafters are all 2x12 and the length is about 21'6"."You have a 40' rafter span which gives you a 20' rafter run without ridge deduction. How do you come up with 21'6" for a 6/12 pitch with that run?With a run of 20' and a 6/12 pitch your rafter with no ridge deduction would be 22'4-5/16"If you say that your length is about 21'6". Then your run would be 19'2-3/4" giving you a span of 38'5-1/2" for the span and building width. Joe Carola
i am sorry the run is 22' 3&3/4".
RTC
BTW, PL premium is a far stronger construction adhesive than liquid nails. That stuff is just a mastic fine for trim or sheet goods, not structural - too much creep.
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Piff,
That was beautiful.
The CM
piffin,
i appreciate your post first of all the icf walls i ommitted were not in the plans to begin with and we added 2 more interior icfwalls with according beams in the slab.
Basicall the hous is 60x40 60 being the front and 40' being the gable end.
the interior icf walls run the 40' distace from the front to back of the house. one wall is set in @ 16' from the outside and one @20'.both of these interior icf walls will extend with wood as interior gable walls.
so the house is in three sections. the 20' sec. is joisted in 2x12 and then 16' , in 2x10. the joist run perpendicular to the rafters w/look out joist run off a double 2x's.don't all those joist act as rafter ties.
the only rafters that don't have "rafter ties" are in the mid section of the house.ther is one wall w/ an archway and a triple 2x12 header in the back half of the mid section that goes all the way to the rafters.
that's all I know for now.keep the comments coming.i don't have any older carpenter friends anymore to show me the way.thanks
RTC
with joists running perpendicular to rafters they cannot possibly be acting as rafter ties - they are not tied to them and do nothing to keep them from spreading.So with some updated info - you seem to have one room that is about a 24' span foir that poor ridge. Since I was wrong assuming only 32' wide that means that one ridge beam will need to hold a load of 35# x 24' long x 20' ( half the rafter spans ) = about THREE Ford Explorers! OK, I looked at your profile and see you are in Texas. Make that two fairly well loaded Suburbans instead...16,800# on that one poor little old LVL.
Think about it
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we have changed the roof design since the original engineering, which was a 5/12 -6 3/4 /12 the ridge span in the middle of the house (24')was still the same and all four gable walls are still the same.why would the eng. spec 2x12 ridge and 2x12 commons
RTC
I'm as confused as you are about that one! You have a set of plans on a napkin basicly. You said you had no specs and now you wnat me to say why he speced a 2x12 ridge? when I don't have the napkin in front of me!I'm sure some info is being lost in the trasliteration, but this whole thing sounds Mickey-Moused to meHow can you say you have eliminated walls that were never in the plan in the first place? They had to be there to be able to eliminate them!Somebody asked you about your local AHJ and how you managed to get a permit...I assume you are in one of the many jurisdictions where no specific engineering plan is required in order to get approval.But you keep refering to an engineer. Everything you have to say about his work is laughable, if true. You need to either get back to him for clarification and correction or you need to hire another engineer to reconstruct the paperwork on this. Flying solo with this underdesigned structure will mean that eventually you will be getting to know a lawyer so it is better to get to know an engineer right off. One that knows what he is doing re residential structures.There is a story here about how in the world you come to be building a house that has inadequate plans that supposedly had an engineer and how you have come to be re-engineering things by the seat of your pants without knowing the difference between a ridge board and a ridge beam. That story would make for some very interesting reading. Believe3 me -I am, not beating you up here. I am trying to warn you to deal with a reality that can fall down on your head and crush all that youthful exuberance.I can tell you from experience and hearing from others that there is at least a 60% chance that the way this came about is that the owner is a cheap cut and run artist. He got a concept drawing from an archy and then failed to pay him to carry it forward to a fully developed plan, so all you have to work from is a cover sheet. The engineer worked up some conceptual ideas and options and then never got paid to finish his work. Then the HO went looking for somebody to build his dream house and found a young guy with a lot of energy and self-confidence just itching for his first big opportunity to tackle a big one...maybe I am wrong on this one, but I've seen the scenario several time before. You could be doing yopurself a favour by finding out exactly why these guys don't have this job fleshed out properly. There is more to this than meets the eye
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Hey "Old Man"
hehehehehe
"There is more to this than meets the eye"
That is the single most telling statement in this thread.
I'm not real worried what size ridge board RTC uses as the longest span on the exterior concrete walls is only 24'.
I am worried about the size of the ridge beam because RTC hasn't told us anything at all that would be need to figger anything at all out.
See my next to RTC.
SamT
i appreciate your post first of all the icf walls i ommitted were not in the plans to begin with and we added 2 more interior icfwalls with according beams in the slab. Basicall the hous is 60x40 60 being the front and 40' being the gable end."the interior icf walls run the 40' distace from the front to back of the house. one wall is set in @ 16' from the outside and one @20'.both of these interior icf walls will extend with wood as interior gable walls.so the house is in three sections. the 20' sec. is joisted in 2x12 and then 16' , in 2x10. the joist run perpendicular to the rafters w/look out joist run off a double 2x's.don't all those joist act as rafter ties.the only rafters that don't have "rafter ties" are in the mid section of the house.ther is one wall w/ an archway and a triple 2x12 header in the back half of the mid section that goes all the way to the rafters.that's all I know for now.keep the comments coming.i don't have any older carpenter friends anymore to show me the way.thanks"RTC,From what you wrote above, I drew up a floor plan as what I think you mean. Tell me if it's close.If it's close it can be built that way with the ceiling joist and doubles perpendicular to the rafters and outriggers nailed to the doubles and nailed on the top plate and along side the rafters with joist hangers on the doubles with two rows of strongbacks. It's just like a hip roof and they will hold the rafters and walls in place. That's basic framing.The center section doesn't have any ceiling joists at all as you said. They have collar ties. Those collar ties have to be set at a certain point on the rafters in order to hold the outside walls in from spreading. That whole house can be built without those two interior gable walls and without those perpendicular ceiling joists.That house can be a 60' x 40' wide open building without any ceiling joists and NO Structural Ridge. But, your collar ties have to be set at specific height and specific size to hold those outside walls in place to do so. This type of building is built every day.The difference between what you’re doing and what I've been doing after framing for 22 years is that, EVERY building I build like this is specked from an Architect or Engineer and those collar ties have to be designed to hold this whole building together without a structural ridge.I've used collar ties that were just 2x8's and nailed to the rafters only. I've used 2x8's where they were nailed to the rafters and I had to use two threw bolts in every rafter. I've built them with 2x10's and 2x12's with the same process. I've built them with a 2x12 on each side of the rafters every 16" centers with threw bolts going threw all three members. I've built them where I had to use plywood gussets at the top.I've also built them where we had to use vertical 2x4's or 2x6's nailed to the bottom of the collar ties and rafters.What I'm telling you and everyone else in telling you that you’re designing this building with just your THOUGHTS and NO STRUCTURAL or ARCHITECTURAL or ENGINEERING training. You can't do that or you will have severe problems on your hands.Yes, after 22 years framing I can design something in my head because of every single house and addition I built all these years but that doesn't put a degree or license to back up my thoughts or gives ME the RESPONCIBLITY or LIABILTY to do so.Everyone here is a blessing to all who asks questions here and no one here is trying to offend you at all. Everyone here talks from many years of experience and does not want to see you get in over your head.I hope you do the RIGHT thing and try to get this designed the right way.Here is what I think you are talking about.Joe Carola
that's the basic floor plan and the collar beams will be set to an eng. height.thanks.
RTC
RTC
68410.1 Ridge board spans 60'. With splices.
First a ridge board doesn't span anything because it is just an ease of construction aid. Second you can use 1/8" luan for a ridgeboard but it's easier to use something stiffer. Third, you can butt splice a 2x ridge board with 2 @ 16d toenails top and bottom.
68410.13 everythings open inside
OH SHID! Better make that ridge BEAM outa 4' deep steel I Beam
68410.17 have 4 gable walls almost equally spaced across the 60' span sitting onn top of icf walls
Whew, Ok. we gots a concrete wall tie in every 12'. We can go back to the 1/8" Luan ridge board now.
68410.45 engineer spec'd a 2x12 ridge on 2x12 commons. I like my ridge to stick out from under the bottom of the rafters
Excelent engineering Rule-O'-Thumb: Ridge should stick out under rafters.
68410.45 one page of plans I have to work with that are out of scale and have been revised several times over without being redrawn.Nothing is included in the plans not even a door & window schedule, no elevations,no cabinet dimensions, headerheights, ect
68410.50 all the icf walls i ommitted were not in the plans to begin with and we added 2 more interior icfwalls
Who is "We" as in "We added"?
You did give a lot more structural info in this post. We here at BT now know that you basically have three concrete shells butted together; 16'x40', 24'x40', and 20'x40'.
Now you claim that you have rafter ties in the outer two sections, but earlier you said that you only had collar ties. Which is it? They each meet a different structural need, ya-no?
We also learn that the center section of the roof span is only about 30' vice 40'.
68410.54 a friend warned me against them [LVLs] because they have a crown.
Even an engineered composite beam will sag. The crown is built in so that after it sags it will be straight.
68410.55 why would the eng. spec 2x12 ridge and 2x12 commons
2x ridge because 1 1/2" is easier to use than 1/8" (Luan) and 12" because you do need full face bearing at the rafter butts.
Ridge Board: makes it easier to frame the roof. Bears no load.
Ridge Beam: supports 1/2 the weight of the roof.
Collar Tie: prevents a type of wind damage.
Rafter Tie: prevents wall spreading from roof loading forces.
I agree with Piffin. You've ran into the worst kind of HO. Run, dont walk, as fast as you can. Better yet, start an argument and make him fire you.
SamT
I have been reading now for 45 mins trying to decipher your thread - initial question, replies, defenses, explanations, solutions and rebuttals. Ha! Now I want to add my 2 cents!
Those who have replied know more about structure than me and from my experience, you would be well served to heed their advice.
What I would like to address is the project's dynamic. A few have commented on what being a professional requires. Allow me to boil it down to 2 things:
1) You bill for your time and efforts. Hopefully you get paid, but you always bill.
2) With every minute of time and ounce of effort you understand that you are ACCEPTING liability for your actions. Therefore you only spend time and effort on those things you know about, are able to bill for, and for which you are insured.
I don't know anything about the Client, Architect or Engineer other than your few comments and this is not enough for me to draw a conclusion. But, I have a comment regarding your handling of this issue and the project as a whole.
It looks to me that you are doing more than GC'ing the project and acting as a framing and siding sub. Input into design - structural and/ or aesthetic - should be billable, but more important; should be covered in your liability policy. You screw up on this one and YOUR FAMILY pays. When you were youngER and single, it was easier to play it loose. However you are now married and have a child on the way. You certainly don't want the healthcare $ or college fund to be devoted to paying lawyers or worse yet - judgements against you.
I admire your self-confidence, abilities and energy, but don't let these cloud your judgement. Stay within your liability boundary. That is the boundary that really matters and will keep you in or out of business.
TELL (not ask) the Client to get you an updated set (full set) of drawings which show someone else taking responsibility/ liability for design. This will also come in handy when "errors" are made due to lack of clarity. Without a clear set of documents, including specs the "do-overs", especially once half the budget is spent (funny how this is a common time benchmark), will be on your shoulders.
Setting limits and managing the Client are two of the most important parts of your role as a GC. Step up to the plate. Though the Client may resist at first, he/ she will thank you in the end.
Frankie
There he goes—one of God's own prototypes—a high powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live and too rare to die.
—Hunter S. Thompson
from Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas
Edited 1/22/2006 12:55 am ET by Frankie
thank you for your post. i agree in many aspects and my wages are hourly whether i'm on the phone or the roof. the relationship between myself and the HO is unique.
RTC