I am getting ready to build a new house in Wake County, North Carolina. I have a question that I am wondering if you might know the answer, or could point me in the right direction. Our plans call for 15 risers on a 9′ ceiling. My wife wants 10′. The problem that I see is that if we went with 10′, we would have to add two risers to the staircase. This staricase would then encroach into the 6′ opening between the kitchen and family room. My first question is… For North Carolina, does the 25″ rule apply. i.e. 9″ tread with 8″ risers? I figured that I am right at the 8″ riser height with the 9′ ceilings. 9′ x 12″ = 108″ + 10″ for second floor joists & subfloor = 118″. With 15 risers, this makes for 7.87″ risers. Is that correct? If I wanted to go 10′ ceilings, by code would I have to go 2 more steps?
Also, do you know how far a staircase can encroach into an opening between kitchen & family room? I might have to extend the rear wall of the house out by a cinder block.
My other concern with the 9′ vs 10′ is that.. Will the elevation of the house look “off” as the windows were designed with 9′ in mind. Do you use the same windows and split the difference in placement by 6″ to make the extra 12″ up.
This seems overkill for a house that has multiple vaulted ceilings, treys, etc.
Replies
Yes, you would need two more risers.
IMO, you need another one as it is. A tight steep staircase has no place in a house such as you describe, and an 8" riser is too steep for that.
Can't offer a better opinion on the resst of it without seeing plans and sections.
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>> an 8" riser is too steep for that.He also mentioned 9" treads, which makes it even steeper. 11" treads would be a lot better.
I know. Sounds like a HO DIY design. That's why I hinted show the whole thing to improve it.Wives are hard to please, especially when they demand the impossible.She wants a longer staircase to carry the laundry up and down....
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Hmm, makes a person wonder doesn't it?
108 / 15 is 15 @ 7.2"
120 / 17 gives 7 1/16" rise
120 / 16 gives 7 1/2" rise
With 10" treads, either is about 13' of run.
What struck me though, was the link of window sizing to ceiling height.
Now, here in town, that "simple" change would require a brand-new Res-Check energy compliance work-up.
The extra height can be elegant, even useful; but it can take a deft hand to remember to "deal" with all of those spaces less than ceiling height in width and depth, too. Simple space like a powder room that is "airy" at 8x6x9 can "loom" a bit at 8x6x10.
But, it's what the customer wants; we can but speculate, nu?Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
"Simple space like a powder room that is "airy" at 8x6x9 can "loom" a bit at 8x6x10. "Just hang a smallish gargoyle up on the freize to look down and protect you while on the potty!;)Somehow, this house is reminding me of that other one where the budget is gone off into the deep end...
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this house is reminding me of that other one where the budget is gone off into the deep end.
Wondered if you would come to that same conclusion too.
Or if a, well, "similar circumstance" may tie both together--at least to we outside observers.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
> that "simple" change would require a brand-new Res-Check energy compliance work-up.
It depends on the climate. Heat rises. So in cold country, high ceilings are a bad thing. But if it's hot, high ceilings and high windows can be a good thing -- let the heat out.
-- J.S.
You don't want a 9 inch tread either. 7 +/- 3/8" riser, 10ish inch tread.
If you're going to change the ceiling height by a foot on the main floor of a multistory home, you need to go back and properly rework the plans. Not the type of thing to do as a quick hack.
But it's your wife.
Check the local code on any ammendments to the IRC code. IRC has 7 3/4" as your maximum riser height.
For me, 10 is the run for stairs, and 7-3/4" the max rise. I will do anything I have to do, to keep it to that.
I prefer stairs down closer to about a 7.4 rise, but that is me, with my 62-year old legs.
Walk up any courthouse steps in America and you'll likely be feeling a lower rise than my preference.
IMHO, big rises and short runs are for old farmhouses, and certainly not for new homes.
Especially those with 10/0 ceilings.
IMHO, 10/0 ceilings cause more problems than they are worth. Talk to your lumberyard and get prices for "precut 9" studs. Talk to them also about 54" sheetrock. Then talk to your framers and your rock sub. You'll quickly get the idea that 10/0 is worth some bucks. More in sheathing, more in rock, more in siding, insulation, and finally, labor.
Using precut 9s and a 2x10 upper floorframe will give you, depending on floor finish thickness, more or less a total rise of 119-1/8", and at 16 risers, a nice comfortable rise of 7.445 inches per.
But hey, what do I know? Maybe you and your wife are in training for an Everest assault! Maybe you just won the lottery!
I was just thinking more about this. Thanks to Genes comment about the Everst assault - I think that some codes restrict you further than max rise and min run, but also that you cannot have more than fifteen risers without interrupting the run with a landing.
Check it out locally for codes restrictions and design to code.
Then with your steepest design in mind, mock it up or find similar layouts in freinds houses and rtun up and down a few times.
Staircase is one of the first things I design in a house, because everything has to fit and function around that.
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9" Tread on 8" rise? Make sure your insurance is paid up. 12/7 would be my choice, keep the ceiling low, it costs less, is easier to work with. High ceilings are passee. Read "The not so big house"
Are you sure you mean 9" tread or 9" run? A 9" run with an 1" or 1 1/4"nosing would be OK. Also check local codes around these parts any stairway with 15 or more risers would require a landing.
when I step on a tread I like my foot to rest completely on a tread, not hanging the toes over the edge. Build a few mock ups and try to see what feels best. Of course check local bylaws. I know of a developer who build some fancy luxury homes on a golfcourse. The homes sat for a long time. Reason: the prospective buyers shuddered when they looked down the long flight of stairs. The company re build the stairs with a landing in the middle. The homes sold in very short time.
I love high ceilings and don't have a problem redesigning how everything fits to make it work. It will look fine as long as everything is designed with that in mind. Don't hack a set of plans and build 10' walls instead of the plan's 9' specs.
I'm also with the rest in that your idea of good stair design may not be the best route. It sounds good on paper, but that's about it.
Good building
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
I am with you.
Also, nine foot walls still mean two sheets of drywall, and that makes me happy.
I forgot to mention this, and I believe others have said something about this, but I'll chime in here with something about stair unit run versus tread width.
Treads in my designs overhang risers by 1-1/4", so my unit tread run of 10 inches translates to a tread width of 11-1/4".
A stair with x risers will have (x-1) treads, thus for my previous example, a stair ascending through 9/0 of overhead with a 2x10 floor frame upstairs, the 16-rise staircase will have a run of 15 x 10, or 150 inches.
Depending on skirt trim at the top and bottom, a straight staircase like this would require at least 12'-6" of space, in plan view.
I live and build in Wake Co NC, and BTW, I have 10' ceilings in the main part of my house.
Per NC code the max rise is 8 1/4" and the min tread is 9".
Take a look at this document to see how the tread of a step is measured, specifically Photo 8. This booklet is IRC2003. NC currently uses a modified version of IRC2000. So, looking through that booklet all of the stuff does NOT apply, however the way the measure stuff does.
If you want to take a look at the current NC code book go to this web site. You want the Residential Code, 2002 edition. BTW - if you permit after 7/1/07 you may need to comply with the 2006 code which has yet to be adopted. They say 7/07, but that is what they said last year too. :-) Anyway, when you are looking at the code book, anything that is underlined is a NC change to the IRC.
If you want to go buy a code book the place is over in Garner. They are about $60.
BTW as far as your 25 degree rule - forgetaboutit!!! We don't use that.
Anyway, 15 risers will work fine with 9' ceilings, but you do indeed need 17 risers for 10' ceilings. You need to understand the relationship between rise and run too. I have a document on that, but the summary is that rise x run should = ~ 75.
As far as the res check, etc people talked about above, some jurisdictions around here make you do that and some don't - even though they are supposed to.
For whatever it's worth, we have 17 risers, 7 3/4" rise and 9 1/2" treads, although we have an intermediate landing and a turn, and also these stairs are only used to access the bonus room and attic storage area. Our house is essentially a 1 story, but technically I guess you could call it a story and a half.
The houses I'm building now have steeper stairs than that, but they aren't expensive houses.
As far as changing ceiling heights on the fly, don't do it - you need your plans redrawn. Too many variables, The designer will help you make decisions like window height, etc. to get the proportions right.
BTW - this is getting a little ahead of things, but if you do go with 10' ceilings, I recommend a stud length of 116 5/8 to make your sheetrock fit right. Obviously each stud will have to be cut, regardless of what ceiling height you go with to make up for you sole plate and double top plate.
Somebody above said high ceilings are blasee (sp?) or something similar, but once you have lived with them, whenever you enter an 8' ceiling house if feels very confining. OTOH, vaulted ceilings aren't my cup-o-tea - my tastes run more traditional. I'm trying to talk my wife into a smaller house, but even still we will build at least 9' ceilings on the main floor.
Matt, Interesting note about the 116 5/8 studs. Around here, I can get up to 12' precuts from 3 different lumber yards, either 2x4 or 2x6....
I just got my heating bill, and I wish I had 6/0 ceilings!
Here the only 2x4 precuts we get are 93", 104 5/8", 105". Then there are 96", 120" and 144". 2x6 only available in the last 3.
Edited 2/7/2007 10:50 pm ET by Matt
I had the same question a couple of years ago and finally went with the 10' ceilings (Caswell County, NC). I like it, but there were a number of problems [stairs were not a problem because they folded back on themselves with 3 winders in between flights]. the problems included:
That's about it for problems. I do like it though; very dramatic; spaces look bigger. Keeps things cooler in the summer too. We did 9' cielings upstairs.
While I am unable address the stairs issue, we increased ceiling height by 1 foot after ordering windows. End result is the look of the windows planned from floor to ceiling changed once window in place. Windows were centered from ceiling to floor. If I had chance to do this again, I would prefer to have windows placed lower toward the floor rather than centered. I say this for appearance of more light to enter the rooms especially if there is a wide over-hang on the home.
p.s. Floor to ceiling windows are great for indoor pets who may/may not long to be in the outdoors. Lost this view with windows centered! Hope this provides some thought to placement.
Windows closer than 12" to the floor have to be tempered here, which adds significantly to the price. I make my cat jump up if it wants to look out. Not so good with dogs I guess.
Here, the code for windows close to floors is a window needs to be tempered if the window is closer than 18" to the floor and the window glass (normally of the lower sash) is larger than 3 sq ft. I think this is standard IRC stuff.
This close to the floor need for tempered glass normally only pertains to windows that are not double/single hung, and picture windows although there can always be other circumstances. Like maybe if a customer wants "cottage style" windows where the lower sash is larger than the top sash. Then, you got casements, etc, etc, etc. Again this stuff needs to be addressed at plan time.
Edited 2/8/2007 7:22 am ET by Matt
Around here, in NC where where the OP is from, for more traditionally styled homes, window height is indeed a function of ceiling height, however generally with 8' ceilings they are placed flush with the top of the front door (6'8") and somewhat higher for 9' or 10' ceilings, say 7'4". If the front door is a 8', then this effects things, and if the front door has a rectangular or elliptical transom this has some bearing too. Palladium transom effects things not so much. The window length is adjusted somewhat based on window height. It's all about getting proportions to look right on the front of the house. For example, a little while back I was building a house with 10' first floor ceilings. Customer changed to an 8' front door - on the fly. The plan was already for a 12" tall rectangular transom over the front door. I ended up changing the window height as the walls were being laid out, having realized that the house would look ridiculous with the front door system being 9' tall and the window tops being set nearly 2' lower. I think I went with a 7'8" window but can't really remember. I did not ask the customer about this - but rather told him... :-)
Additionally, he wanted all first floor doors to be 8'. A side effect of this was that I had to make the side porch ceiling somewhat higher than I think it should have been. I had suggested 7' high secondary and interior doors, but the client had something else in mind, which I didn't have a problem with, except that doing it on the fly was just ridiculous, and I think somewhat made the end result not as good. BTW - the plans had been drawn and approved with all 6'8" doors.
Just to add to the fun, at the last minute I had to run around to get an engineers approval and letter to put a properly sized LVL above the front door that would still fit the door and transom.
Again, my advice - don't make changes like this on the fly. These things have to be done at plan stage.
"don't make changes like this on the fly"AMEN!I had a customeer cange a door unit width on the fly which created a need to redesign a stairs which changed a floorplan after the framing was all finished. They had a choice of losing a few thousand on the door or losing a few thousand on framing labour. Why can't HOs let the designers do the designing....
I educate them at the beginning that a house is a tapestry and changing any one item changes all the other items in the house. Most listen. The ones who don't will waste money.
Theirs - not mine. But it's stil frustrating.
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Well, when they hear "tapestry", they figure that making changes is like changing curtains.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Why can't HOs let the designers do the designing.... Chances are the home owner did not do a good job in communicating with the designer as to exactly what he/she was seeking or just plain did not know what to ask for or thinking we can always decide later which is obviously "costly" on the part of the HO as well as builder.
Perhaps the designer failed to listen or chose to do what he thought was the best design. Chances are one one spouse may have been seeking lower costs while the other spouse did not wish to give up that "want" and won out in the end though costly.
If time allows, I would suggest HO live & work & agree on a houseplan for a year prior to beginning construction; certainly is cheaper in the long run to return to the designer for paper changes than materials & labor.
Personally we changed from 8 to 9 foot ceiling, raising ceiling even more in a couple of areas which should have been in the house plans but were not as we failed to communicate with the designer & sped right ahead with building. Worked out satisfactory but at a cost to HO as well as delaying builder.
Good points all.In the case I mentioned, it was a matter of them being swayed by the "advice" of a door salesman when I ws not present. His only job was selling doors and windows, and upselling customers for a bigger slice of the pie so they allowed him to force a re-design. I've had plumbers and electricians try the same game because all they see is one narrow piece of the pie.In every case, these subs and salesmen have learned that if they want to do businmess with me, they button up their lips and leave the design to me. If they want to make suggestions, they call me diect and don't do end runs around...That is to the detriment of the job, the client, and the business relationship. Everybody has their place.
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>>Personally we changed from 8 to 9 foot ceiling,<< ...
Good for you!!! Here, in the SE USA, 8' ceilings are so "60ish"... :-) In this case (ONLY) I applaud a change of the fly. We will give you one get out of jail pass for free - this time only :-) Really though, it's all about the future HO thinking it through ahead of time and doing their research - visiting about 1000 model homes, etc., etc. I mean heck - you are only spending, what - 1/4 million $, 1/2, 3/4, or whatever...
Even the moderately priced homes I build have 9' ceilings of the 1st floor.
BTW - back to the OP's Q. 10' ceilings are good, but only required on, probably $600k+ homes here in the Raleigh area - which is where the guy lives...
Erk. Not good.
Personally, anything with a rise under 7" annoys the heck out of me. I feel like I'm going nowhere. 8" doesn't bother me a bit.
BUT--and theis ia a BIG but--9" treads are SCARY. 10" min, 11" is better. I think the 25" rule is idiotic, myself. And I'm average height for a woman, with short legs.