I started an office build out for a client a few weeks ago. This person came directly from one of my best clients and (the new guy) is a rather large developer so I wasnt too worried going in.
Everything started out well, we got a nice deposit and got things rolling.
Then the scary music began playing.
The electrician (his not mine) came in a day late and took two extra days. When he finished he became the proud recipient of a red tag from the city which he didnt come back to address for a week and a half.
The client was getting the office doors and were still missing one.
Both these things are holding us back from completion and in the process i’m literally flat broke (meaning I cant even pay my week late $35 gas bill).
I asked for a draw after drywall to make payroll. First I get “i’ll pay you on Friday”. Friday came and no client. I call hiim and he’s “stuck” on the other side of town.
Okay then Saturday, nope his mom had a stroke and fell down the stairs. (in retrospect I wonder if his mom is even still alive).
Monday, no contact.
Tuesday, big apology i’ll meet you whereever you want.
He shows up with half the money (which only meets payroll and buys a few materials)
“But not to worry, i’ll be back tomorrow”
Yeah, right. Havent heard from him since. I’ve left voice mail, text, e-mails, and had the pleasure of standing next to two people on the same day that he called but he hasnt called me.
Thursday we’d gone as far as we could (waiting for the door and the sparky to finish). I cleaned the whole site and loaded out.
I’ve since called and emailed him twice telling him we only have one more day call me to let me know when we can get back in.
Nothing.
What would you do?
I could suck it up find money for the last parts and get it done, but at this point whos to say i’ll ever get a call back from him?
Or I could blow it off and wait for him to call back before I finish.
Either way ive already financed about a grand of this job and am owed enough money to pay all the bills on my desk right now.
Any help?
Family…..They’re always there when they need you.
Replies
Have your atty send a nice but firm letter now indicating your intent to file a lien within the next two weeks or 30 days (whichever is standard in your area).
When he calls back after he receives the letter, which I am sure he will! Indicate thats your standard "company policy" and that you do that for all jobs where on-time payments aren't made.
And when he says "but YOU are the company, why is this your policy?". Tell him thats how you run the business to assure you get paid and the job gets completed as if you DON'T get paid, the job cannot get finished.
You'll likely owe your atty $200 for the letter but at least its the legal way to assure you get paid eventaully.
Good call. We'll see what Monday brings.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
I can't be of much help other than find out where he lives if you are that worried.
For a big developer to call you on a job should have thrown up a warning to be on top of it. Doubtful in these times that he couldn't get his regular guys, good bet he's stretched them thin and might have lost them. Another is all the talk here over the past months on the lack of loan money being let out.
I'm sure the sizeable deposit check probably blindsided you. To be out a thousand and whats left only covering the current billing is a bad spot to be in. The electrical problem is one often generated when you are subbing and not in control of the job.
Best of luck is about all I have to offer, sorry.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
We met in a meeting at my other clients house. Were getting ready to start his addition and we were asked to bid the office build out cause he said it was a small project. It is a small one, but my hopes were to show him what we can do and possibly get in with him.
Now im not so sure I could survive if we did.
I've provided everything I said I would and fixed any errors that were made (of course) at my own expense and without holding up progress one minute.
I just dont get the whole no contact thing. Even if its "your policy" not to pay till completion, I havent even been calling for money. I need to know if were clear to close up the ceiling and I dont know where he bought his doors from.
He told me he was acting as Super on this one.
I could probably find the door pretty easy but if he wont return calls, I dont know how much more I should put on the line.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Couple other things. Its really not that big a job (under 10k), and the deposit wasnt that large (although cash for whatever reason) but it was a little more than I asked for.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Having worked for commercial concerns and individuals a whole of times over the years I have come to the conclusion (early on luckily) that they are always the slowest to pay (with a few exceptions). Stories come out of their mouth like a horney college boy away from home for the first time.
You are lucky that he's into you for such a small (in the scheme of things) amount. I know with cash flow that it is no small potato's, so don't feel I'm minimizing the impact.
I carry money on larger remodels in the thousands, but I also know the paying history of the indidual. If slow or non responsive I keep them ahead of the billing. If consistant and prompt I have no problem taking draws upon completion of certain phases.
In the over 20 yrs I've left employ and been on my own I've only had one roofing contractor owe me 500 for 3 yrs. The turd probably didn't have a chance at easily a couple hundred thousand because of my reverse referral. I've been either well ordered or as I seem to think, one damn lucky guy. I only work from referrals which (not in your case) usually goes a long way in prequalifying the client.
But enough about me, it don't help you one bit.
When confronted with a tall story (or series thereof) I find the right in your face polite statement of I want my draw now and we can go to the bank to get it. Come'on hop in, I'll drive.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Good points but I can't get a phone call back to simply find out if he's got his door yet.
This is what I don't get
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
And he won't call back. That is until he's ready to pay you. He's already given you about as many excuses as he's got in his arsenal.
Of course we could be wrong. His mother could really be sick, no one else could run the business in his absence, he never checks messages, emails etc.......
Unless it's the main entry door, he may wait quite a while.
What's he look like? If I see him down here I'll grab his worthless ####.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Were just short one office door and about a hundred ceiling tiles.
I don't know where he bought his doors or I could just go get it. But once again I still can't get ahold of him so that's why im not sure whether I should go back or spend anymore cash.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Well, seems like you gotta go back or you definitely won't get what's owed. But spend more? nope.A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Similar circumstances put me out of business in the early 90's. Probably a larger sum of money, but the circumstances were similar. Carried a job for 6 months, 300k worth.
Drove me to swing a hammer for someone else for a while.
Can't tell you what to do, other than call, email and try to find him. I always made collecting into a full time job. I once took a vacation to Cape Cod, to find a customer that took a vacation when he owed me money! Collected!!
Must've been priceless when you strolled up behind him on vacation.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Edited 10/18/2009 4:02 pm ET by MSA1
I wish I had it on video!>G<
Time to lawyer up, I'm afraid.
In many areas you can search for law suites and liens online.
I would check out the record on the building, on his own home. And look for suite or judgements in his name, his wife's name, and any business names that you know of.
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
What does your contract say as far as pay schedule and delays not of your doing?
Now there's your problem. We never really discussed it. As a residential guy I'm used to one thing and as a commercial guy he does another. Mutual and accepted mistake. I'm willing to suck that part up. Were so close to being done I'd let that go this time. I need a return phone call! I have legitimate questions that I need answers to. I'm not gonna drive 45 miles across town to find out were not cleared to finish the ceiling or the doors not there.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
I need a return phone call! I have legitimate questions that I need answers to. I'm not gonna drive 45 miles across town....
For a grand or whatever it is he owes you, you won't drive across town? Come on, bro. Wake up and smell the coffee.
This guy is giving you the ol' run around. All the signals are there, bells dinging, red lights flashing. He's done this to more than one poor schmuck before you, too.
But what you gotta remember is that he's hiding behind his answering machine 'cuz he doesn't wanna face you. He's a worthless, scuzzbag, chicken-guano, cheating little toadturd. But he's afraid of you, or he'd call you back.
So show up on his doorstep, unannounced, with Clint Eastwood sittin' on your left shoulder. Stand nice and tall. Wear black. Sunglasses are good, too. Especially after dark. But don't actually threaten him. Don't say anything but 'You need to take care of this.' And hand him the bill.
Then just stand there and don't move until he does.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
toadturd.
Never heard that one before.
Be glad. I've met a few.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I'd contact the mutal friend and say
"hey I can't seem to get a hold of so and so and i have some questions I really need answered to finish .he said his mom was sick .do you have a way to contact him?"
Done, done, and done. No good.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
i'd file the lien then.
But tell us how you really feel!!! LOL
How I really feel?
I effin' hate deadbeats. I purely love scaring the piss out of 'em....
That technique works. I used it 30 years ago to get some dough out of a slimy magazine publisher who went by the name of Big Vinnie, who wanted everybody to think he was Mafia connected.
He wasn't.
He owed me $45 grand, and had been ignoring phone calls and lawyers' letters for three months. I didn't get it all, but without doing the least little illegal thing, I got a check for half right on the spot just by going out there in person.
The pulisher's office was in one of those suburban 'professional' buildings full of dentists and lawyers and suchlike. I'd taken the train all the way out there with no warning and then just walked into their offices looking like death on a pale horse, wearing cowboy boots, a beat-up slouch hat, mirrored sunglasses, and a black leather jacket inside which I'd stuffed my gloves when I took them off.
LOL. I guess somebody in the office thought the bulge those gloves made in my armpit was something else. When I walked out of the building, there were three police cars in the parking lot. I smiled and tipped my hat, and walked on down the road to their bank branch where I paid $10 to put the check in 'for collection'...which meant that no other checks that company wrote could clear until mine had been paid.
The check cleared in four days.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I didn't get it all,
Shoulda worn the speedo. You might have got it all. Plus a tip.copper p0rn
It was February or March IIRC. Little chilly, even in New York, for that sort of thing.
And there was no force on earth that was gonna get me the whole thing; they didn't have it. Mag went teats up a couple of issues later. My own fault for letting them run the bill up so high; a lesson I try to remember to this very day.
Expensive lesson. But I did key the bastard's Datsun Z real good another time. That was worth something....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
my first inkling was create a serious code violation, then turn yourself in, sort of...
but, farbeit for me to advocate any such thing
get my drift?
Not a bad idea.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Still not able to find this piece of debris. I called the owner of the building, we'll see if that does any good.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
I went through this same thing back in feb 2009. We were framing house and the GC owed us $10,000 and wouldn't return my calls, wouldn't return my emails, and never came by the job.
So do we keep going, hoping he'll pay us eventually, or do we go to another job and return when we get paid up to date? We chose the latter. The GC had a new framing crew in there in 2 days, and finally returned my call saying we walked off the job and now he's not paying us. Let me tell you it took every ounce of my self control not to go to his office and choke him on his office floor till I knocked him out.
He ended up paying me $4000 of the money but I got stiffed out of $6000, the amount he claims the new framer charged him to finish the house. BS. I filed a lein but it didn't do anything. I could have sued but my lawyer advised against it, saying his fees would be $2-3,000 and it'd be a tough case to win since the builder can tell the judge we walked off the job.
I hope I never run into this guy around town. Infuriating.
In the old days, we would have had a barbecue.
I hope I never run into this guy around town. Infuriating.
When I was a kid a guy stiffed my father on a frame. he was arrogant about it to.
One day when he didn't have the check he promised?
He some how managed to fall out of the house thru the panel of an Andersen slider.......and then somehow fall back into the house thru the other panel.
Funny, dad never got stiffed again after that, by anyone.
yep, that usually does the trick!
Mark, what is this developer's name? I'm just curious to see if I know him.
I wouldn't take the advice "threaten to file a lien". That's just bad advice. Instead, FILE THE LIEN. Those liens can be powerful tools. For instance, this might very well be a lease situation and he is violating the terms of his lease. The true owner might want to know eh?
I don't know the regs about commercial liens but I do know that if you want to protect your money, you have time limits. Don't let them expire.
Incidently, I've had a few guys threaten to file liens on me. Usually, we are in dispute about the quality of their work. I always laugh and offer to help them fill out the paperwork.
If you are paying subs, make sure you get a signed unconditional waiver of lien. Without them, your owner can refuse to pay you. You'll then have to chase the sub down and some of them are disappearing pretty fast.
What is the name of the electrical firm that is stiffing you? You would think that they would be ready to work and do good work in an economy like yours.
Blue,
You might be right. I guess I always give folks a second chance before I get to the point where I push them. I also suppose thats why right now three different folks owe me around $6k.
Even the wife says I am too nice to be in business. She (and you) are probably right. If I can ever hire a full time employee, it will be a female who can be a hard nose and push people more than I can. Go for the looks to sell yet the authority to collect. Two things I am REALLY bad at! :)
Mike
Mike, filing the lien isn't "pushing". Its just good business. I used to have a charge account with Erb lumber. Every time I charged something they wanted to know which residence it was charged for. Every time, they sent me letter requesting the legal info and the notice of commencement. Were they pushing me or protecting their money? When you provide services, you are creating money. The lien protects your money.
One company I worked for in HVAC used to put a lien on EVERY job they worked on at the beginning. Not sure how they did it. Maybe because at the start of any job a contractor is owed money.
Anyways I was told it was "just business" and kept everyone on their toes.roger
You don't have to be owed money to place a lien. A signed contract allows the contractor to attach the lien because the work is being done on that house.
"You don't have to be owed money to place a lien."You better be owned money before you put a lien on a property or you could be hit by fraud charges. Now some states allow a kinda of "lien notice" to be filed indicating that work is being done a property and that amounts might be liened against the property in the near time future.But to file a lien you have to indicate that an amount is owned AT THAT TIME and you are not owed that amount at that time it is fraud.I remember years ago and on another forum someone was complaining about the upper hand that contractors had. This was in CA and the guy had his roof replaced. I never heard why, but me make the check out jointly to the supply company and the roofer. It turns out that the roofer was several months behind to the supplier. So the supplier credited this payment to a previous unpaid job, but put on a lien and removed 6 months later when the the contractors payments reached this job.But again the HO had paid the contractor and supplier 100% long before and the supply company would have been in deep do-do if he as gone after him..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Yes, I probably am confusing the lien notice with the lien.
That may have been a Notice of a Right to Lien. I do that if I suspect any problems.
About $15-20 here. We have approx 60 days from last work to file/record the lien. If we get paid in those 60 days then no need to go ahead and record the lien.
To actually record the Lien is Approx $250 plus some other fees. We have one going right now. Well, it's about 10 liens, but one project.
14k will turn into 20k
YMMV
Edited 10/20/2009 11:07 am ET by Scrapr
You know Mike, I can be bribed to collect for you!
Imagine the 2 of us coming to the door to collect!>G<
I did help a friend out once - a nurseryman, a guy was trying to stiff him for several hundred trees - we took a drive to his house, my friend knocked on his door while I stood to the back in a leather coat, sunglasses, and a black hat - along with my long beard and #### kicking boots - worked - don't know what I would have done if a bigger/badder guy would have come and stood behind him tho - <G>"there's enough for everyone"
Time to file a Lien. Used to be standard procedure down here, Lien went in place before the work started, that's what the release was for. Retail owners don't like Liens at all since it will affect refinancing, which they do often. It will probably make him angry but at this point who cares.
If the guy is married find his wife's number and tell her that you are owed money and need to get paid. If need be keep calling. She will get results!
Edited 10/20/2009 12:03 am ET by Griffin12
I was in the dentist office today, and a guy I know by reputation--he is well-off--came out of the exam room and went to the counter. I was sitting nearby waiting my turn. The receptionist asked for a payment of about $200 and the patient asked if he could write a check for $100, to be held until Wednesday, and pay the rest later. The receptionist automatically said yes, as though this question came up all day long, and these days it might well be.
These are turbulent times financially. A lot of people are cut off from their usual sources of money, have less than they used to, are worried about whether they will get more, etc. etc. People who owe money, more often than not, will not get face to face with you and confess that they can't pay right now. They're embarrassed, they're bummed, they want to avoid dealing with it. In about 2001 I was running a fairly large job for a guy who had made money in tech and was selling off stocks to pay for the job. The NASDAQ tanked and he stopped paying, started avoiding us.
I would probably do the lawyer letter, I might file the lien, and I certainly would not let the lien period expire. Continue to send bills, doing so legitimizes the charges and increases your chances of getting paid. When he has the money he will likely pay you.
Good point about keeping up the paper trail.Mark, you might want to send a letter, registered, informing the client that they have violated the terms of the contract and that you are enforcing the termination clause...or whatever language you have. Make sure you give him the proper number of days to respond, pay etc.
how can you be "well off" not be able to pay $200?
Just curious.
you drive an expensive car, live in an ostentatious house, wear stylish clothes, and send the kids to private schools - "there's enough for everyone"
Sorry, let's say "formerly" well off and possibly will be again. Investment income dried up, I assume. I know someone poised to lose a $900K house for lack of ability to continue paying a $300K note. Lots of folks out there moving back in with their parents or their kids, etc. Anyway, I bet our OP can collect his money if persistent.
use someone else's phone to contact him and tell him you have a job you would like him to bid on, set up a appointment and shazam you got that dogs full attention! well thats a little deceitful, but I would at least call him from another line.
now were talking.
have couple big buddies in hiding and come sauntering out about the time we start talking.
;)