please!
I’m thic close to getting this bath remodel. It’s become more apparent now than in the past that I am dealing with a shew wants it he doesn’t couple. Or maybe they’re playing that on me.
I’ve found this type of situation one of the toughest to overcome/deal with. I really need to sell this job.
How ’bout some quick tips from some of you ace sellers out there?
I’ll cut you all in when I get it!
Thanks
“When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking.” — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
Replies
Eric,
This is one of the hardest you can come up against,very tough to read,it's been my experience that if mama wants it ,she's going to get it, but not always.
I try to lay back and let her do the selling while giving hubby the sympathy looks ,like I'm married too,I understand, I'll make this as painless as possible, without being to obvious about it to either one of them.
Middle of the road kind of thing, try to be on both their sides.
Vince Carbone
Riverside Builders
Franklin,NY
I'm gonna hit him up big time with resale value and the level of service they will receive from me.
For her it's more of an emotional thing as it is there guest bath in their summer home and she needs to impress her guests with a nice bath.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
Good way to go,
help her get the updates she wants without being to outlandish,and help him keep the cost reasonable while still increasing the value of their house.
Like I said you got to work both sides of the street. Vince Carbone
Riverside Builders
Franklin,NY
Thanks Vince
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
For her it's more of an emotional thing as it is there guest bath in their summer home and she needs to impress her guests with a nice bath.
You need to zero in on that emotion. Remember, sell the sizzle.
One of the things I mentioned to the lady I'm working for now was that together, we were going to create a "WOW" room. Her eyes lit up when I said that and she clearly agreed that that was exactly what she wanted. We were truly and emotionally connected to HER dream.
Papa was focused on the finances but was a willing accomplish. I didn't have to "fight" him but I did have to prove competence and he checked my references. I passed that test and we did in fact deliver a "wow" room. I know that for sure because the wife of my worker walked in yesterday and her exact word was "WOW"!
Don't be afraid to get emotionally involved with Moma if you truly believe in what you are offering. If you're not excited, why should they be?
DANGER Will Robinson DANGER............
I've never seen one of these not end up in the contractor getting screwed in some way. May not be a major screwing.................but you may well find everything you do under a microscope as a way to justify his objections.
Robert, I'm going to mildly disagree on that point. I've worked for many reluctant spouses and have had many pleasant experiences.
I think the kind of people that will screw with you are that way whether they want a project or not.
Eric,
Vince brought up some good points.
This is the typical client I used to have when times were tough and I lost my shirt trying to please both husband and wife, figuring they would provide future leads. What I did not realize was that the couple had this dynamic because, strange as it sounds, it works for them. How it affects you doesn't enter into their equation.
One part of my adjustment was to state that I need one person to sign the contract. This would be the rep who I communicate with on a daily basis, sign the Change Orders and pay me. When I did not have this solution I was known to have had painted rooms twice because he would want color A and she would want color A that was more like color B. It was always MY misunderstanding. They won't pass the blame. They'll just never accept it.
Next, where they are in disagreement, try to restate the problem/ issue as simply and clearly as possible - offering two choices, maybe 3. They need to say "no" to something and you need someone to get rid of the BS. They may try to re-confuse the issue, but stick to the points.
Also understand that, consciously or not, they see you that are in a service industry and should want to please them - both. We all know this will delight them but lead you to the poor house.
Be reasonable. Be fair to them and yourself. Give them what they pay for. One of them will always be disappointed with each decision - price vs luxury. That's their dynamic. That's cool. Just you never be disappointed trying to please.
Frankie
Flay your Suffolk bought-this-morning sole with organic hand-cracked pepper and blasted salt.
Thrill each side for four minutes at torchmark haut. Interrogate a lemon.
Embarrass any tough roots from the samphire. Then bamboozle till it's al dente with that certain je ne sais quoi.
Arabella Weir as Minty Marchmont - Posh Nosh
Frankie, I think you are sending mixed signals. Actually, I think I agree with you but mabye you are just using the wrong words or examples.
I think you are trying to say "write a strong and firm contract and stick with it".
In some states, you need both signatures if you want to protect your lien rights. That would negate your suggestion to "have one sign it".
After it's signed (by both), the contract rules. Any deviation is a change order and that should be explicitly covered in the contract. Color selections and number of coats should be part of the contract. That would rule out having to repaint a room because one or the other didn't like it.
I like (and use) the idea of offering alternative options. I see it as a way of upselling. It is also a way of ruling out a lot of "extra" free, "while your are here" handiman stuff.
About painting rooms twice.......
I always make both of them sign the contract, and put a clause in something like, "instructions given by one shall be as if given by both". Get the selections/changes in writing, at least have the paint chip circled and initialed & dated.
Make or break makes it extremely hard to learn sales techniques.. Darn near impossible to not sound desperate and almost no-one will buy from someone who's desperaite.
Well you need to know your competition.. who is likely to be your competition.. you should know before going into it about where they are price wise and know enough about them to be able to help the people put relative values on them.
What you don't want to do is walk in there blind knowing nothing, toss your quote down and hope the low price makes the sale for you.
You need to connect with these people in a way that causes them to accept you as a consultant rather than a competitor.. Once you are the "consultant" on a job you can control things to their satisfaction and complete the sale..
Learning to be the consultant is hard, requires a lot of training and experiance.. It's not a magic bullet but a smooth practiced approach that requires a lot more listening than talking..
If you want I'll be glad to help you further.. Just ask.
You need to connect with these people in a way that causes them to accept you as a consultant rather than a competitor.. Once you are the "consultant" on a job you can control things to their satisfaction and complete the sale..
Totally agree!!!
http://www.cliffordrenovations.com
http://www.ramdass.org
"Well you need to know your competition.. who is likely to be your competition.. you should know before going into it about where they are price wise and know enough about them to be able to help the people put relative values on them."
this is remodeling ... not equipment rental and sales.
Who cares about the competition ... why would you suggest to even think about what the laid off firefighter charging $12/hr is gonna charge?
The customers are either price buyers or not ... and no amount of talk will change that. In my mind ... the competition doesn't exist. Thinking about them is the quickest way to go broke.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
ditto
hard to talk yourself into a sale ... but easy to talk yourself outta one.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
You proved my point!
If a professional cannot make a case that some laid off firefighter is not likely to do a good job well or properly protect the owners against loss without proper insurance. etc.. Then the professional needs to learn how to deal with objections..
Cheaper is an objection.. if you know your stuff it should be a very easy case to make.
When I sold equipment I never sold it as the cheapest because there is no bottom to cheapest. I sold it as the best and justified the price..
Now that requires care and skill to do effectively. I can help you if you are interested but it's not easy..
Yor are missing the point that Jeff tried to make.
You said: "What you don't want to do is walk in there blind knowing nothing, toss your quote down and hope the low price makes the sale for you."
I don't agree with that statement. You can make that statement when you are selling equipment because the prices for each piece of equipment is easily determined. It isn't so easy in remodeling because each remodel job is unique. Each company bidding on the work might have a different approach and the price can vary widely.
So, we ALWAYS walk in blind knowing nothing. I will agree that you shouldn't toss the quote down and hope...
I'm sorry, you are underestimating your competiton..
Let's assume there will be say 6 bidders.. 3 "legitimate" companies with full insurance and experiance, 2 smaller operations who normally don't carry insurance and rely on a smaller group to build and one fly by night operation..
Beating the lowball fly by night shouldn't be that difficult a task.. You must be tactfull and intelligent about how you bring it up but it's relatively straight forward.
Same with the smaller operations plus you have the ability to put in more man hours per day so the work should be done faster..
Finally you need to compare work done by your legitimate competitors.. Hopefully you've kept track of their work and know for example that company A tends to work"messy" while Company B cuts corners such as using 2x4 instead of 2x6's or whatever.. and finally company C tends to wind up with real friendly walls (they wave at you <grin>)
That's how you compete..
You need to know your competition well enough so you can explain why you aren't the cheapest in a way that means something..
I've listened to too many people who claim they do better work without any sort of backing or justification other than simply saying it..
Too put it in a better way, Imagine you were buying the work done. If everyone who gives you a bid tells you they do the best work who do you believe?
Finally you need to compare work done by your legitimate competitors..
You are still missing the point.
In Austin, there are exactly 2,496 remodeling contractors. Next week, there will be exactly 4,476 remodeling contractors. 3,244 of them will be new and 1,785 of the old remodeling contractors will be bankrupt and gone.
When you sold equipment, your clients were choosing between 3 different comanies and it was easy for you to know the prices and nuances of each machine. It's impossible to transfer that same idealology to remodeling contracts.
I don't know a single competitor, nor do I care to know them. I don't care what they do and I never mention anything about them..good or bad. They don't exist in my presentations.
If I decide to focus my efforts on a smaller segment of the remodeling industry such as roofing, I may decide to invest some of my time learning about some of the bigger roofing companies but if I continue in general remodeling, there is no way I could possibly "know my competition". I'd have to know every Tom, Dick and Harry in the county.
You're wrong again.. I had 18 differant competitors in Minnesota who sold 23 differant brands.. in addition to that there were countless private parties selling and that doesn't begin to count the internet and magazines etc.. all of who attempted to sell the same basic product..
See you and others are guilty of the same thing that makes it so hard for me to get a job.
Somehow If I sell A I can't possibly be able to sell B, C, Or D.
Like somehow the priciples of sales changes when another product is being sold..
That's pure hogwash.
I started selling at age 5 selling magazine subscriptions and flowers.. I suppose in my lifetime I've sold thousands of differant products.
The principles are identical.. the product changes.
So how do you go about finding out about your competition?18 companies that you compete against is a lot, but I could probably find 18 competitors without getting past the "A" section in the yellow pages.I wouldn't even know where to start with this kind of research.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
So how do you go about finding out about your competition?
try asking your subs. They may have worked for the competitor or know someone who has had experience with them, or somebody who has worked for them. Both my regular plumber and my regular electrician have been good sources of info on other builders.
Also while doing a job I might engage a client about other experiences they or somebody they know may have had. I have been told some good examples of why others were NOT hired by doing this.
In the office at the lumberyard, I can usually find out who is busy or not, and maybe why they are not. Talking with the main guy out in the yard has been productive too.
Asking other builders and subs at the HBA meeting if they know anything about a particular company or individual has helped some too.
Heck, your insurance agent probably insures some of your competitors, ask him about it.
Sounds like you are in a much larger market than I am, so maybe these ideas wouldn't work for you, but it could be a start.
Bowz
That's my exact point too Jon.
I really don't feel I need to know my competition. Perhaps if I was doing a more focused business, it might be critical but if I'm offering general contracting, there are far too many firms, large and small, for me to get a decent handle on any of them. I might be lucky and know a little about one of the other bidders but I certainly wouldn't have enough information about their operation for it to be meaningful.
I'm not going to spend five minutes studying any of them. I've got enough to do.
Keep A NOTEBOOK. I hated the record keeping requirements to be effective But I knew that I had to make legitimate comparisons between myself and others to be effective.
I also took a lot of picture to have in my notebook on competitors..
Organize it well.. if you have hundreds of competitors you need to understand what they do and what it is that makes you better or superior..
Little things should be noted such as a stud slightly off the plate or miscut angles on the rafter tails etc.. In addition note where wood is wasted or poor load tranferance exists. (theres where pictures are much more effective than words..
In additon note things those not familar with the trade would understand such as poor storage of trash, not cleaning up, large amounts of excess materials in the dumpster or awaiting return, wasteful building practices such as cutting a corner off a sheet of plywood and tossing the rest away, messy wood piles etc.. Those are things which imply poor value to owners..
Note also the quality of materials used.. If you are selling solid wood cabinets have a particle board with a piece of veneer with you so they can actaully see what you are speaking about and why solid wood is superior.. Show the differance between dovetail joints and glued and stapled joints.
Show and tell is really big and makes you more of a consultant than someone who drops off a quote saying how good he is etc..
I spent a lot of nights and weekends making a complete set of books on all of my competition.
Unlike most contractors equipment manufacturers constantly change the equipment.. Lull for example used 19 differant hydraulic systems in the time I sold them.. Caterpillar had 7 differant models from one importer,, 9 differant models from another importer. There was a total of three importers who built for Caterppillar alone. Virtually no commonality between them.(other than the same color paint)
John Deere today buys from a early supplier of Caterpillar who Caterpillar rejected because the product wasn't reliable.. Aside for the color of the paint the equipment is still radically differant from what caterpillar originally bought.
Little things like switches made a great differance. There are 9 differant grades of switches used in construction equipment Some are vastly more expensive and superior to others.. While the lower grades of switches are unlikely to survive much beyond the intial warrantee..
So once you add models and options etc.. we are speaking about similar amounts of data needed to be competitive..
Since I looked at soooo many houses being built I quickly learned to judge just who built what and what problems or flaws I noted in all of them.. I was actually looking for a builder to build my house because untill well into the process I never expected to build my own. I found 9 differant timber frame builders but all but 2 of them simply assembled kits built by others.. Both of the 2 who scratch built were booked up solid for years in advance with deposits made. (Ironic, they still are working slowly catching up to their built in back log)
You can do it.. In fact as competition gets more fierce you will be forced to become more effective selling or lose out..
You missed the point again or maybe you just want to argue about nothing.
My numbers were intentionally facetious so we wouldn't get into the exact number argument. And, I really don't care who or what the competition is.
I sold lemonade at age 4 with my big brothers and sisters. I guess that makes me something better? Why would you bother telling me that ridiculous thing about magazine subscriptions?
Try to focus will ya?
I told you about starting selling at age 5 because I went door to door selling.. My father was a salesman and my grandfather started selling when he moved from Wisconsin to Minnesota. I've got not only my 5 + decades of sales experiance but also those of my father and his father..
That's a whole lot of sales experiance. I honestly know what I'm talking about..
As to your point about the competition it is important even if you don't think so..
Knowledge is power..
If you knew that a competitor only used one nail per stud don't you think that would make a differance in your sales presentation?
Go find those things..
Build a book of your competitors weaknesses. then next time you make your presentation and that contractor is also bidding have some nice pictures to show or a notebook of comments about his technique..
One final point..
Don't be surprised to learn that he may do some things better than you as well. Even that tidbit can be helpfull if you use it right..
Build a book of your competitors weaknesses
Okay Frenchy, please explain to me how I'm going to find the time to investigate the 4,327 different contractors, knowing that half of them will be out of business next week and 3,673 new ones will be taking their place.
I just looked in the yellow pages and there hundreds of entries. Should I start the book alphabetically or reverse it from Z?
Well ignorance is bliss they say..
Walk in and just tell them what a good job you will do and how cheap your prices are.. then throw down a bid and walk on to the next one..
That's the approach most use so why should you be any differant? I mean you all have all the work you want and it's massively profitable isn't it?
Where in this thread did I suggest that anyone should "Walk in and just tell them what a good job you will do and how cheap your prices are.. then throw down a bid and walk on to the next one.. "
Thats a pretty weak cheapshot Frenchy. And this one: "That's the approach most use so why should you be any differant? I mean you all have all the work you want and it's massively profitable isn't it?" is quite easy to answer.
I have a lot more than you.
I guess you didn't have an answer for my request on how to create a book on the thousands of contractors so you've decided to drag the conversation down to the gradeschool level?
Blue, of your thousands of competitors you need to be able to be constructive about what they offer and how you differ.. Otherwise you become a commodity. commodities are sold by low cost..
But you know all that..
Why do I need to go to extreme lengths to make a point with you?
I've never said it's easy to be a good salesman have I?
It's darn hard work that some are only beginning to understand now when they need to become more effective and not just toss a bid down.
With regard to those thousands of competitors are you telling me that homeowners are willing to endure thousands of bids and presentations? Of course not!
You however will need to recognize your competition and have something informed to say that differs their work from yours.. Otherwise you merely become a commodity.
"Why do I need to go to extreme lengths to make a point with you?
I've never said it's easy to be a good salesman have I? "
You missed the point - your salesmanship is being tested by making you 'sell' the idea of salesmanship. You'll never make it if you keep insulting the 'customer'.
You may be right.. maybe I can talk someone into doing something they refuse to do..
Maybe I shouldn't have to..
You however will need to recognize your competition and have something informed to say that differs their work from yours.. Otherwise you merely become a commodity.
Again, I don't agree.
THE OTHER GUYS might have to learn about me and have something informed to say. I am what I am and I'm quite confident that I'm the best choice out there and I don't care who the competition is, nor do I care to learn about them.
FYI, my current client called me today to tell me that his wife re-positioned all the furniture last night (we had finished the job) and sat down on the floor and cried tears of joy. He called me because he wanted me to know how pleased they were with our efforts.
How arrogant to imagine that all of your potential customers know and understand that.
I am what I am and I'm quite confident that I'm the best choice out there.......
Now I can understand why you don't accept any help.
Blue, the whole tone of your posts has been that doing the job well is too hard and you are the best..
If you're rich and well rewarded then you are correct. That's how society judges these things.. If however like most of us you're a working class guy living from job to job than perhaps others have some things of value to teach you..
Frenchy, your interpretation of the "whole tone" is quite skewed.
My focus is on me, and the client. I don't care what Pedro is offering them and I don't care what the competition's prices, level of services, products, skills etc are. If I'm a good fit, then I'll get the job. If I'm not a good fit, them I won't get the job.
YOu keep ignoring the fact that there are 100 times more competitors in our business than the equipment business.
Regarding your claim that the job is "too hard". You might be right. I don't have the time to investigate all the possible competitors and you haven't offered one shred of help on teaching me this. I think there's a good reason....because IT'S IMPOSSIBLE!
Blue I wish you had my depth of experiance selling.. if so you'd realize what hogwash you just said..
I've been selling for far to long to ever accept there is a limit in competitors but you have done the job so you aren't aware of it yet..
Tell me, when you show up how many competitors will have submitted quotes or will be submitting quotes?
What is the maximum number you've ever competted against for any one project? (did you win it?)
Frenchy, the last five replies to me, from you, have been personal in nature and although I have skin as thick as an elephant, and I really don't care, I wish they would stop. Not to protect me from you, but to protect this site from that type of conversation.
We are going to have to agree to disagree. In the future, if you want to carry on conversations with me, please refrain from getting personal.
Hey blue,There are some gems in this thread and I'm hoping to return to...a couple of quick selling tipsIt's funny how markup and sales both end up in the same place-our personal philosophy of life...Anyway,thanks for the reminder of the wow factor-that is a great selling tip.And that we should have lots of leads to pick from and not be in a situation of having to sell this one job...A lot of my customers get my name from a local supplier or a friend and are already "sold on me"...I am still honing my salesman skills but a few of my best
quick selling tips:I forgot the competition a long time ago-the real competition is in your own mind. We sell by being confident. A firm handshake, a warm smile exudes the reassurance that the person who is standing in front of the customer
can deliver the goods...LISTENINGand one of my favorites-I add the following on my proposals-value added and I hope it helps to separate my company from "my competiton"• The best service in the industry.
• Professional installation with attention to detail.
• Work areas are always safe, tidy and as clean as possible.
• We take care of your home like our own home.Women love a man who picks up a vacuum at the end of the day! cheers,silver
"We sell by being confident"
I agree.
I'm confident when I know I am going to project manage the sold job. I can then talk in the first person and explain exactly how the entire project will unfold. This is the same thing that Stephen does when he walks his client around the house and points out how he's going to protect that bush and set that ladder.
I've had that same success when I walk with the client through their house and really start focusing on the issues. Then, I start thinking out loud and before you know it, I'm right there, assuming the close, and explaining how I'm going to protect their house and deliver the remodel that they want/need.
I really don't care what anyone else is going to do for them. I can only do what I do. When I try to re-invent myself, it doesn't work and I lose my confidence and sincereity.
So, for me, the key is to honestly, in my heart, intend to deliver a great remodeling experience, using all my skills and devoting full time to their project. I am not a "multi-tasker" when it comes to remodeling.
ya can't sell what ya don't believe in.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Flip that over and think about a con artistall he's got in his bag of tricks is confidence...ain't my style but look how far that one trick pony will get ya-and I think that a con artist does believe in himself...but I agree with you totally ... it's one of the reasons I work for myself and sell myself daily...I believe in myself and the unique service and product that I can deliver to my customers...they then assume belief in me when they sign on the dotted line.silver
What goes around comes around...I'm a little nervous about a living room media unit that I'm selling tomorrow. My selling price is 14,000 and change and I'm waffling on the price-and setting my selling agenda in my mind...call for supper...I'll be back...sil;ver
Hey guys, Finished a job today, collected money-added a small extra, passed GO tomorrow:I'm selling "Custom media wall cabinets" 14,700.00 Total of all described work 35.00 5 % G.S.T.
$15,435 TotalI've attached the proposal for anyone who's interested
My quick selling tips :be confidentsell the wow factorTo cover a potential objective: yes it is a high estimate but it covers a lot of give and take
Besides with what I think is a very generous hourly estimate I have added 67% to labour costs to cover a customer with high expectations who has the potential to be a PITA I'm dropping off some chairs we repaired and refinished-we took them back to shop because she wanted a higher gloss so after I bring in the chairs I'll hand her a drawing of what the unit will look like in her room, a drawing of the unit and a proposal.she'll look at it and probably say:Wow that's a lot more than we wanted to spend on that wall:I would like to hear what you would say...thanks!silv;er
I would reply " good things aren't cheap and cheap things aren't good".
I love that line. I got it from Zig.
that is good-and I could see myself saying it...thanks bluesilver
This is great stuff Jim..."So, for me, the key is to honestly, in my heart, intend to deliver a great remodeling experience, using all my skills and devoting full time to their project. I don't think I can say it any better but it is my intention as well.
I think I will try to paraphrase it and add it as a value added bullet to my proposalsI was thinking today of another quick selling tip-from Zig Ziglar-the job is sold before you see the prospect. And I think this is huge.I've heard the opympics is 95% mental/5% physical. How many times has
an athelete who wins a gold metal pictured himself with a huge smile on his face and the gold metal around his neck.I'd say at least a 1000 times-
1000 images of winning which today is basic sport psychology.It works with sales as well- see the customer smiling and signing your proposal after you have walked them through their project...Sell it first in your own mind and then expect the customer to sign.I just clipped a quote from Napoleon Paul out of the paper that I am posting by my desk-"Ideas are the beginning points of all fortunes"Every morning I read an affirmation from his book-Think and Grow RichI have to say-I think it's helping...
silver
I've listened to too many people who claim they do better work without any sort of backing or justification other than simply saying it..
Too put it in a better way, Imagine you were buying the work done. If everyone who gives you a bid tells you they do the best work who do you believe?
I don't claim I do "better" work. To me, that is a disengenuos line because I don't know who the other bidders are and they might be Mike or Stan or a host of other guys that would mop me up in remodeling or stair building.
I do point out that I served a formal apprenticeship and went to school for four years. I also like to mention that little tidbit that you gave me about the Captain Sulley (he landed his jet on the Hudson River) line: "For 35 years I've made small daily deposits of experience. That day, I made a huge withdrawl." I tell my clients that the same idea applies to me when I start their remodel but it certainly is less dramatic.
Sit down and ask yourself would such a glib and common response work on you buying say a boat or a airplane? (the whole withdrawal remark)
No indeed you'd need reasons That I will want to buy the product and ways to deal with objections I might present..
To get those you need to understand what has been said and ways to not only counter those statements but to make them valueless to the customer (in this case me)
Like most people looking to buy.. I sure don't want canned answers, instead I want reasons to believe in you and what you are telling me.. Reasons that I know are honest and real..
Huh?????!
Frenchy,
I'll throw most of my hat in your ring on this. And give a couple of examples.
I have another remodeler in my market that in the past i have "bid" against. I hesitate to say that because I believe before the customer gets to price, one of us is already chosen. I'll call him Phil.
For years I heard Phil's name mentioned when I looked at jobs, and was somewhat intimidated by him. Then one day at a golf outing we were paired on the same cart. After a few beers, there were obvious differences in our personalities and styles. Doesn't make one wrong or right, just differences.
So if I really want a job, and Phil is looking at it too, I know how I am going to leverage those differences BEFORE the customer gets a real price from me. And that talking to the customer may change my mind about whether I want to work for them.
one of the differences is yearly volume. If I do $150K Phil has told me he does a little over $1 million. Quite a difference, No? So I am going to point out to a customer that hiring me will get me personally doing their job, and their $15,000 job will get 10% of my yearly attention. They may value that way over whatever Phil can do, because they are getting only 1.5% of his attention at the most. Oh yeah, Phil has this "tough guy" take it or leave it attitude that I have absolutely leveraged in my favor. (actually I am finishing up a basement that Phil's attitude lost for him a long time ago. So what though, we are both still in business) My laid back style has probably been leveraged against me by others, or caused a customer to not choose me.
As another example, in the past I have always assumed when I didn't get a job, I was the high number. That is wrong!! I have been beaten by a higher number because my competitor was able to get in and get out faster than I could. The customer valued a compressed time frame more than the extra money in their pocket. So if there is an indication that time is of the essence, I may eliminate myself right off the bat if I can't meet their time frame.
Another example, though I haven't bid against him since I found this out, is a contractor named Matt. He told me how he believes his hand written proposals show customers that he is down to earth. "Oh really? is that what your torn jeans, and dirty shirt say too?" So if Matt's name comes up with a customer, I am going to leverage appearance, and a semi-professional proposal. Not that it is going to sell the job, but it is one more way of separating myself.
Finally I don't think you have to walk into this blindly. Next week I have an appointment to look at an addition with kitchen and bathroom remodel. On the phone I asked who else they had looking at it. he gave me two other names, one I knew, and one I didn't. Since my area is about 80,000 in population, (Way smaller than Blue's area) I think I do have a handle on the names that have been around for a while. so before I hung up I mentioned having been in business since 1991 and in the trade since '84. That puts me on a par with the guy I know, and should separate me from the one I don't know.
But something the customer said may have eliminated this customer already. He told me the other two were working up designs so he could compare ideas. If they are doing that for free, I probably will walk away from it, as I have leads for other work and don't want to do any designs for free.
Bowz
Excellant and well said.. You looked for differances to help you close and understand that low price does not always succeed.
I wish everyone else understood that..
With regard to the take it or leave it close.. that can be effective depending on what preceeded it.. However one thing you probably don't understand is the strong arm tactic of take it or leave it results in a lot of buyers remorse..
You know what buyers remorse leads to and not much of it is good..
So keep it up.. You're on the right track!
Jim's initial advice is right on...
I would only add, you've got to sell to the guy, which means saying "I know where you're coming from, it looks like a good deal of money, but if you make her happy, you'll both be happy, and she'll owe ya one." And explain that happiness is not a dollar figure, but the joy you'll receive from this new bathroom.Expert since 10 am.
Excellant and well said.. You looked for differances to help you close and understand that low price does not always succeed.
Umm....the discussion was about "you need to know your competition". No one was disputing that low price does not always succeed.
Bowz, I'm not sure you made such a strong case for Frenchy's position. Frenchy was trying to say that knowing your competition is important.
Before you met Phil, you won and lost jobs, probably at the same rate as after you met him. The reason? Because each buyer has their own particular needs, wants and desires. If personal attention is important to them, they will choose you even if you don't know Phil.
If you know your competition gets in and out quicker, will that change the way you get in or out? Won't you be presenting YOUR services in the same manner? Wouldn't you ask them the basic question: "When do you plan on starting and what is your desired completion date?" If they indicate to you that they want a two week job done in one week, are you willing to ramp up to meet that demand or do you stick to your normal game plan?
If you are bidding against Matt, will you dress up or down or will you wear your normal appointment clothes?
On your upcoming appointment, you tossed out some credentials and qualifications. Wouldn't you go over those qualifications in your presentation whether you knew the competition or not?
I guess my main point is that people are going to buy a remodeling project from someone they can afford and also that they like and trust. If they can't afford you or I, it really doesn't matter who the competition is...they aren't going to buy from us. If they can afford all of us and they like all of us and they trust all of us, they still are going to choose only one. If we've put our best presentation forward and offered them good value on a well written proposal, it really doesn't matter what the competition does. They have to meet or exceed our standards and price and/or be more likeable or trustworthy.
Blue, you are costing me money this morning as i have windows to put in. But the job I am doing is a great illustration of what i am talking about. But I need you to take a step back and look at a little larger picture.
Won't you be presenting YOUR services in the same manner No I won't be. I will be looking at perhaps the twenty or thirty arrows in my quiver and selecting the best few based on what i think the customers hot points are or will be. Better yet is knowing what the customers hot points are from our conversations.
If they indicate to you that they want a two week job done in one week, are you willing to ramp up to meet that demand or do you stick to your normal game plan? At this point I am not willing to change my game plan to suit that situation. And I have passed on work because of it. I once had a friend of my wife call about doing a whole house remodel before the next baby was due. I knew I couldn't do it, and Phil had looked at the job, but was dragging his feet. I told DW's friend to call Phil again, and stay on him, as he would do a good job. I called Phil and made sure he knew I wasn't doing the job, but the clients were shopping. He got on the stick and I think the job was in the parade of homes. A few years later Phil returned the exact same favor on a job he couldn't get to.
If they can't afford you or I, it really doesn't matter who the competition is...they aren't going to buy from us. I'll grant you this is often true. But it is also NOT TRUE enough that to not be aware of it is to shoot yourself in the foot!!!! People can get creative in ways they can find to come up with the money if they desire the project enough.
case in point is the job you are costing me money on at this moment. LOL!! I did the homeowner's bathroom last year, and while doing it they asked me to look at enclosing the back porch. I glanced at it but mentioned I couldn't get to it until spring. They said that was fine as they needed time to save for it. they mentioned Stu's Improvements had looked at it too.
So as things were slowed down this winter I called this client and looked at the project again. She told me Stu's bid was $5,000. So what should I do?
Well, I know Stu promotes these all the way to the floor flexible vinyl windows. I also see at least four cats, and two dogs in this house. So I ask if Stu quoted her the windows that go to the floor. She tells me yes. I ask does she think that they will last long with the cats in here. Before she answers, I point out that I would frame walls, and have something solid come up at least two feet off the floor.
Further I point out that the City is a real stickler for having an enclosed porch wired like a standard room, and that it would be difficult to get wiring in windows that go all the way to the floor. "Even though it will be more, should I work it up doing it my way?" "yes"
So I come back at a little over $8000. They tell me thay only have $5000 saved. So I say let's just do the framing and exterior, and do the rest later this summer. "OK, we can do that"
So before I started she called and had to delay a week as she had an emergency with her parents in another town. When she came back she called and said "I spoke to my dad about the porch, and he wrote me blank check for the whole thing, because I came and helped out while my mother was in the hospital."
So from a bigger point of view, I used what I know about the client to create a different project, because I looked at the bigger picture. And I could do that because I knew what a competitior does. Does that make it a little more clear? But it is not just a project where differences are. It is in personality, style, equipment, interests, and so on and so on.
OK, gotta run now.
Bowz
Yep...I think you pretty well made my point Bowz.
This tangent started when Frenchy mentioned that we need to know our competition and in each of your examples, it's plainly clear that you DIDN'T need to know your competition.
In the first example, you first stated that won't be presenting your services in the same manner, then went on to say that figure out what the hot points are then pull that arrow out of the quiver. That sounds like a normal routine to me, doesn't it? You didn't need to know the competition, but you DID need to know the hot points, the needs of the clients.
In the second example, you need to know your limits and stick to them. They needed something fast and you weren't willing to compromise your methods and therefore one of the competitors, someone who produces faster, wins the job. It wouldn't have made any difference if you knew who you were up against or not.
In the third example, the competion fell short of fullfilling the needs of the client. You swooped in and made a logical presentation and gained their trust by being honest, knowledgeable and helpful. You gave them something....and education. Then, you offered to solve their problems and they accepted. You didn't need to know the competition, you only needed to know their needs and you also needed to know how to satisfy their needs in a professional competent manner. Price was a sidebar. It really doesnt matter what Stu's bid, or George's bid, or Tom or Dick or Harry's bid is. And, you really don't need to know who else is bidding. They were going to use your services because of YOU, and your professional and competent presentation.
In the second
You didn't need to know the competition, but you DID need to know the hot points, the needs of the clients.
And if you know how your competition will handle these hot points differently, there is your opportunity to close, and keep from babbling your way out of the job, by talking about a bunch of other stuff that is irrelevant to the client, but you may think is important.
It wouldn't have made any difference if you knew who you were up against or not.
I don't see it that way at all. If I can't do it, I'd rather have someone I know do it and take them out of circulation for 6 months, cause I am going to pick up some of the slack when they can't. I'd rather have Phil doing the job, than Larry, Curly, and Moe, because they probably won't be there a year from now, and would offer little by way of real competition on any projects while Phil is tied up.
We'll have to agree to disagree.
good night Blue
Bowz
Blue,
wait a minute!
You submit a quote without knowing if that's what the person wants?
(you used price as the objection but it could be anything)
That's the role of a good salesman; find out the customer..
What do they want? like, need, hot buttons, pet peeves etc.. Some things you ask directly. Some things you figure out due to a variety of factors such as body language, eye contact, and attitude..
However before you attempt to close, which is exactly what you need to be doing when you submit your quote. You need to have learned all the relavent details and possible objections and be prepared to deal with them..
As to dressing properly,, if you do this properly it's not relavent.. I wore the same basic shirt and pants for 20+ years. Rarely did I ever switch to a suit or any other attire..
The way I dealt with clothing objections was, "I was out in the field with my customers when I recieved your calland knowing how important this is I hurried right over I hope you'll excuse my casual attire.
I didn't always use that line because in a lot of cases I was dressed as well or better than they were..
That line did two things.. It acknowledged that I respected them and felt their time was important and dismissed the issue of clothing..
"I can help you if you are interested but it's not easy.. "
fix yourself before you try to fix me.
I'm still working.
yer a trip.
got no clue how to sell remodeling.
peace out.
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Well when you let a discussion break down into a personal attack you know you're wrong..
I'll wait for your apologee,
Edited 4/26/2009 7:58 pm ET by frenchy
Sorry man, I gotta go with JB on this one. dont forget the only thing you ever sold was tangible goods. I can buy heavy equipment on the net w/out ever talking to a desk jockey.
the last thing I'm trying to sell is price. there are much more important issues on the table when I'm closing a deal
as far as knowing the competition, thats bunk!
If I've done my job right they're not even talking to anyone else
Keep waiting.
this is the business section ... should be real, serious topics and advice given.
You've given poor sales advice on remodeling/building for years.
I'm in the same position as the people you're giving bad advice to. If I don't sell my kids don't eat. Sorry if I take such things seriously.
I couldn't care less if you feel personally attacked. Learn to translate equipment account babysitting into real world remodeling sales and I'd not have to attack.
"Well when you let a discussion break down into a personal attack you know you're wrong.. "
btw ... that's funny. What .... are you new around here?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Your inability to understand the similarities between selling product A and selling product B. shows the limits of your imagination..
Every poor tradesman I know blames his equipment or tools rather than accepts responsibilty for his own weaknesses.
what ever.
no time to argue hypothetical ...
too busy wrapping up one job and bidding 2 new.
yup ... that's me ... can't sell nothing.
Yer the pro.
Have at it!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
we gotta get frenchy a job..............maybe rjw has one for him.
Talk about two birds and one stone!
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
They're more entertaining when out of work.
"It's become more apparent now than in the past that I am dealing with a shew wants it he doesn't couple."
Not clear what this means
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
typo?
She wants it he doesn't.
You ever go to look at a job and the wife is all giddy and the hubby is kicking stones looking at the check book?
She's gunghoe, he would just a soon not change a thing, i mean after all it works fine.
"When the spirits are low, when the day appears dark, when work becomes monotonous, when hope hardly seems worth having, just mount a bicycle and go out for a spin down the road, without thought on anything but the ride you are taking." — Sherlock Holmes, 1896
You'll never get the job by calling her a gunghoe thats for sure.View Image
I make a glossy picture of my 3D cad drawing and maybe a glossy picture of a previous job. She puts it on the refrigerator so they can discuss it at each meal."Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Bob
I was initially confused myself - are we talking about a shrew or a she, or perhaps both :). I figured finally that shew must be she.
Ha - I totally read it as "the shrew wants it." Made sense to me.
"How 'bout some quick tips from some of you ace sellers out there?"
I hope the ace sellers will surface fast to help you. In the meantime, I'll offer a tip that Zig the ace offers in his book "Secrets of Closing..blah blah blah".
Hopefully, you've done everything right leading up to this point: you've established value before you gave the price, right? You laid out your credentials in a way that clearly demonstrates your committment to quality, integrity and value.
Have you given them a very clearly defined proposal?
Have you established a rapport? With him? Her?
Are you looking at the thing from his side..in his shoes?
Here's what we know: she wants it and he wants his money. He fears parting with his money. She just wants the new bathroom.
Your task is to show him how it will benefit him.
One of the things I point out is resale value. Hopefully, early in the interview, you established that they were thinking about doing this for two reasons: to enjoy it for them selves (living value) and to improve their home for resale value (future value). If you've established those two conditions, then created a design that will fulfill those needs, then you have HIM where you need him. You can point out that future buyers will establish their value and therefore their offer on several major items inthe house and the bathrooms are one of them. If they make offers on houses with outdated bathrooms, they invariably apply a signficantly higher markdown because "we'll have to redo that bathroom". In a tight real estate market, the buyers can be choosey and they'll knock off 15 to 20 for any bathroom even if it only requires 10 k to revamp it right now.
Zig also teaches to "hold something back". You don't want to spill all the goodies about value until you've given them the price. Zig tells us that human nature forces us to say no to any offer, even when it's a good one and if you have something left up your sleeve to toss out after the first rejection, it is often enough to overcome the price objection and it give the buyer a way to "save face" and reverse the decision i.e. "Well....I didn't realize that you were including 10 hours of design consultation at the supply houses to help us pick out fixtures and flooring....when can you get started?"
Of course Frenchy will tell us the answer to that question...."When do you want us to get started?".
I really need to sell this job.
I wanted to address this "need". Instead of "needing" to sell this job, you probably really "need" more leads. If you had ten, twenty or thirty of these offers cooking, you wouldn't fell like you "need" to sell this job.
I do empathize and sympathize with you but the real issue is lack of leads and I just wanted to point that out.
I've got one regular client-couple who's like that. I got caught in the crossfire a couple of times before I learned how to deal with them.
Example: He wants the garden shed and the bathroom re-painted; she wants the bathroom remodeled and doesn't really give a damn about the garden shed.
As to the selling job, when they are both present at a meeting with me, I don't say much and I let her sell him on the remodel. I try to do no more than nod and smile and agree that I can do whatever they finally decide together that they want done. I thus put the burden on them to take a joint decision. This allows me to keep smiling and look patient and fatherly (even tho they're both 15 years my senior).
The last thing I should do is try to sell him what she wants myself; he will take that from her, but not from me. If I try that, I'll lose the whole shebang.
On the working side of it, I don't pay any attention to her choice of colour for the garden shed; I make him sign off on it. (This makes him feel empowered even while he's being henpecked by her outta an extra $3G for the john.)
Meanwhile, I don't ask him if, while I am repainting (and now tiling) the bathroom walls they should take this perfect opportunity to have me yank the old nasty carpet outta there and tile the floor too. I ask her, and get her to sign off on the tile choices and paint colours, too. I also let her decide when and how to inform him of this 'change order.'
Finally--He writes the checks, but she tells him how much to make them out for. So when she tells me: 'Don't itemise your bill, just send me a total--I don't want him to see all the details,' I listen and do it her way. This allows her to tell her own lies in her own way, and all I gotta do is cash the check.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
Edited 4/26/2009 12:37 am ET by Dinosaur
I know a ton of "quick selling tips" ...
I mostly never use any of them.
I just design what they ... she ... wants and go from there.
They're either playing good cop/bad cop ... or he's not interrested.
Doesn't matter if he's not interrested if she is and she works his wallet.
I'd "sell" them the same way I sell anyone ... ask alot of Q's, design what they want ... and while selling "the project" ... I really spend the time selling me.
People don't buy from people they don't like ... and yer never selling anything but yourself ... so skip trying to sell the fun and adventure of a bath remodel.
Desing it to make her happy ... sell yourself as not destroying his house and/or making his life more complicated for the time yer there ...
come up with a fair ... firm price ... present said price .... slide the contract across the table and say to get started I'll need a sig here and the scheduling deposit check ...
then sit back ... and shut the F up.
Just sit back ... and wait ... and smile nicely.
he who talks first ... loses.
there ... there's yer quick sales tip!
Let them fight it out, no need to get in the middle.
either it's getting done or it's not.
if he did balk ... loudly ... I'd say ...
Ok ... I know this bath appeals more to her than you, in this economy I came in as tight on pricing as I could and still get the job done and done to your standards ... but I'd be happy to give you a great price on any projects that YOU had in mind.
Something aside from HER bath ... maybe better garage storage ... a shed for the yard ... custom golf club storage ... ? I'd be glad to give a great price on any additional work you were thinking about. I can do that, as I'd already be here for the bath. All the tools are here, the lumber yard knows where I'm at ... I can probably combine the shipping on the materials and save some money there ... and most important ... the van knows already knows where to go before my first cup of coffee kicks in.
She's getting the bathroom of her dreams ... and aside from making her happy ... what'll make you happy? You should get something outta this too.
Then ... sit back ... and shut the F up!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
If you can't pleas both of them, you can't please either of them.