I’ve been following the discussion about shingling a 12/12 roof quite closely as I am about to sheath and shingle my new garage/workshop 20×18 with a 12/12 pitch.
I have few questions about roof jacks that I’m sure will be very easily answered.
1. I bought 12 jacks from HD they are red and they have three slots-for nailing them to the roof–do I need to use all three nail slots or will one nail do the trick?
2. Does anyone use screws instead of nails for attatchment?
3. What is the process of using a roof jack and also ensuring that you don’t leave holes in the roof when you remove them.
Any other words of wisdom would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
cje
Take what you want, leave the rest
Replies
You hook the jacks on roofing nails in (or above) the top row of shingles, then you just shingle over them. Once you are done with the jack, you slide the jack up & over so it is no longer hooked & leave them there. The shingles cover the nails.
Maybe you use roofing nails. But since having them fail, I use 8d and try to hit a rafter. Watching your tools, watch, het, etc. tumble slow motion for 26' while you balance precariously on the very end of the staging plank that just happened to catch you initiates a review of jack fastening practices.
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1. I bought 12 jacks from HD they are red and they have three slots-for nailing them to the roof--do I need to use all three nail slots or will one nail do the trick?
Yes, you should use all three slots. (Pro-quality jacks usually have four slots.) And make sure that you nail through the sheathing into the rafters or trusses. (If you're on 2x6 roof-decking, don't worry about hitting the rafters; the sheathing is solid enough.)
2. Does anyone use screws instead of nails for attatchment?
You don't need to use screws, as almost all the force on the fasteners is in shear. You should be using 2½" roofers, with the large head, so the nail head can't pop down through the slot.
3. What is the process of using a roof jack and also ensuring that you don't leave holes in the roof when you remove them.
To install a roof jack, you fold back a shingle carefully so as not to crack it, then nail the jack on through the shingle in the next course down, through sheathing, and into the rafter. Then you smack the jack down-slope to seat it solidly on the nails, and let the upper shingle lie back over the tongue. Install the plank and nail it into each jack through the hole made for that.
When you're done and you want to remove it, remove the planks, then drive the jack upslope with your hammer until it slips off the nails, then lift the shingle carefully again and swat down the nails flush. You can daub the heads with pitch, but it's not necessary as the shingles in the next course will lie over them.
Any other words of wisdom would be greatly appreciated.
Use the width of plank the jacks are designed for; some use a 2x6 and some use a 2x8. Use rough-cut planks if you can get them; the extra grip you'll get under your foot won't be bad to have and they are thicker hence more solid.
Place jacks at least every 6 feet laterally, to limit the unsupported span on the planks. Place rows of planking vertically so that you're comfortable working. If you're 6'4", you won't need as many rows up the roof as if you are 5'1"....
Remember roof jacks are not designed to hold the weight of a pallet of shingles. Do not load more than a few (5 or 6 max) packs of shingles at a time onto a single run of jacks or you will be looking for serious trouble.
Have enough roof jacks to be able to set up two full-width runs of planks at a time, plus 3 extras. This will make staging your way up the roof a lot easier as you won't find yourself standing on nothing while you remove jacks to re-stage further upslope.
If you are not going to erect pipe scaffolding all along the eaves edge of the roof--I highly recommend that you do--leave one run of jacks and planks set up down near the eaves to catch you or any tools/whatever that get away and slide down the roof.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Edited 10/28/2005 12:58 pm ET by Dinosaur
"You should be using 2½" roofers..."
Like mike4244, I never use roofing nails for this. The heads are just too weak.
Anybody can become angry - that is easy; but to be angry with the right person, and to the right degree, and at the right time, and for the right purpose, and in the right way - that is not within everyone's power and is not easy. [Aristotle]
make those 16d the sinkers / framing nails w/ big heads & shafts
Yes, the heads on roofers are thinner than those on commons or sinkers. But a strong head won't do you much good when it slips right through the slot on the jack. Maybe your jacks have narrower slots than mine, but I can lift a jack straight off a common nail by just wiggling it slightly.
I'll stick by my advice, but I'll emphasize you do need to put a nail in every slot. I prefer my 4-slot jacks to the DIY-quality 3-slot models for that reason (among others).
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Once there's downward pressure on the jacks, I don't see how they could slip over the nail head. It generally takes a fairly good wack to slide the things back uphill and wiggle them off the nails.
Beer nuts are about a dollar, and deer nuts are under a buck.
Thanks for the detailed reponses--now I get it.
cheers
cjeTake what you want, leave the rest
don't use roofing nails for roof jacks.. the heads WILL pop off..
there is no roof jack i know of that will slip off a 16d nail.. we use (3) 16d nails into the rafters..
i've been on planks that pulled their nails out and i've been on planks that popped the heads off roofing nails
in both cases the jacks were installed by someone else.. now .. we don't go on roofs unless we install the jacks... too many people using roofing nails, or nailing into the sheathing , or using 8d nails
in the one case, the homeowner who installed them went down with the plank, fell into the foundation area for his new addition and broke his leg... he was lucky.. as he also fell right between two pieces of rebar sticking up 3 feet
after you tap the jacks up ( the nails should be firm but not tight ), you lift the shingle and drive the nails homeMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Were again in agreement my flaming Liberal friend.
I set my own jacks and I use spikes. Roofing nails heads pop off much to easy for this phat boy.
blue
I personally use slaters jacks with 2x12 planks. 16d common nails, into the rafters----2 per jack
the crews use fixed 45 or 60 degree jacks for 2x6
They are scared of my slaters jacks---they fold up----------I am scared of wimpy 2x6 planks.
I won't put more than 2 bundles of shingles on a plank-------I lay em on the roof( decking carrys the weight)---planks just stop em from sliding down hill.
BTW 2x6 planks encourage foot traffic and scuffmarks on the new shingles
2x12 planks make a nice sidewalk up their and limmit the foot traffic---they are heavy 'though.
stephen
Wow, all the time I worked as a framing carpenter and we did roofing, we just used one 16d nail per jack! Never had a problem. Guess we were lucky! If you use all the slots though, how can you bend the shingle up enough to nail them all home when you're done?
If you use all the slots though, how can you bend the shingle up enough to nail them all home when you're done?
Gently, Danno; gently....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Mike, Boss & Blue:
All I can say is, you three guys are no dopes, so your jacks must have smaller holes in 'em than mine. But just so you don't think I'm a dope, take a lookit dis:
View Image
That's a 16d common. I had to prop it in there so it wouldn't fall through all by itself while I shot the photo.
View Image
Sorry this photo is outta focus; too much light in the shop to use a flash; to little not to, dagnab it. That's the pro-model jack I use on steep roofs; if you look carefully you can see that each slot is enlarged at the end, which is why the heads on commons fall through. But it's got four slots instead of three; every second slot is staggered so all the nails don't go into the same line on the stud and split it, and it's made for a 2x6. The spec sticker on it calls for one jack every four feet, but I'm a skinny-arsed bastid so I cheat and go to one in six....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
It's different when the nail is driven into something solid, rather than just lying there on a bench at an angle.
Middle age is when you choose your cereal for the fiber, not the toy.
Not different enough to persuade me to take that kind of a chance. I have rolled a jack right off the common nails one of my boys used by mistake one day. Good thing I wasn't standing on it while it happened.
Maybe I'll get ambitious sometime this winter and drag all 45 jacks down into the shop and braze over the loops in the ends of the slots and then grind 'em down flat and re-drill 'em to fit commons. In the meantime, I'll stick to roofers as they've been working for me for 10 years without a single incident.
Gotta go; supper's hot....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Do you know the heads can pop off of roofing nails when they are drawn up tight against the steel of a roof jack? I have some roof jacks designed for 8 to 16d nails. You would never be able to release them if you used roofing nails. It is a keyhole tab instead of an open ended slot
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I guess mine were designed for roofing nails. You can see how a 16d will roll right out of the enlarged hole in the upper end of the slot. (An 8d will drive right through it in a straight line.) If I want to use commons with those roof jacks, I would have to use 4" spikes, which would mean putting an awful lot of fat metal into a pretty small area in a rafter....
There are only two sorts of roof jacks on the shelf up here; the ones I showed in my pix, and a DIY-grade made by Superspike, which has three slots, is made of much thinner steel, and only comes in 12/12 for 2x8. I have four of those, left over from many years ago. I don't use them very often. The yellow ones I use are available in two fixed pitches or in an adjustable model with four pitches. I can't remember the name of the Mfgr offhand....
I am aware that the heads can be pried off new roofers; it happens every once in a while when I try to pull a long one out of dry timber with a hammer. But it takes a fair amount of force to do it, even so. And a roofing jack can't put anywhere near the leverage on the nails holding it in place that a long-handled framing hammer can. It would require the planks to be grossly overloaded, so much so that the shafts of all four nails started to bend down and transfer the load to the heads.
Funny, the older roofing nails seemed to have a more resistant head on them than the stuff I get nowadays. I've never popped the head off a nail when stripping an old roof. They were dipped, too, instead of electrogalvanized....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
un-freakin'-believeable!We'll haveto put this one down to regional differences and say that you Canadians get better nails than we do. I have torn off roofs where a third of the nail heads popped under the spade.I do see that your jacks have a wider slot than any I have ever seen. I have six old steel jacks that must be what were called slaters jacks earlier. They have adjustable angles, hold a 2x10 plank, and have cross wings welded at the bottom to keep them from tiolting so as to pull out a nail.But the failure i refer to is , i think, caused when driving the head of the roofer tight against the hard steel at the slot. A good whack can propel the shaft ofd the nail deep into the wood, while the head is restrained by the steel surronding the slot, causing the fracture that may not be apparant immediately.I also have oak and metal combo jacks that are common here. They have the pattern that denies me use of roofers, butr the metal is also softer and more maleable, so it would deform and follow a nail when whacked too hard. After much use, most of them have divots surronding the nail head so it nestles in nicely.
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I don't know if we've got better nails; the old roofing I usually get to tear off was mostly nailed with 1-inchers, not 1¼". When I push down on the shovel, they just pop right out, sometimes sailing right over my head and down to the dumpster all by themselves, LOL....
There is a big difference in the quality of standard 1¼" roofers and the 2½"-3" ones, tho. Standard roofers are all hot dipped, and are huskier all around. The long ones are electroplated, and seem skinnier and lighter. The heads don't fracture off them, tho; what happens when they come off is, first the two sides where the claws are pulling fold up like little wings, and then if I turn the hammer 90 degrees to pull on the unbent part, either the nail will come out or the head will tear off in slow motion....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
When I first moved south, I couldn't believe the inferior qualities of nails and sheetrock screws. The screwgun bit would shear off before the head of a sheetrock screw would in Canada. I don't know if Canada has gone to importing that junk from Asia, but I sure miss Stelco and Dofasco Ardox nails and Robertson screws.BTW I used to use 2 1/2" roofing nails for my jacks, till one day one let go, then went to 16d.
our friend up north must have a stash of real roofing nails...no way on God's green earth I'd use those chinese aluminum big box babies on a roof jack...
my tired old brain remembers seeing a tool once that slipped up under the shingle & had a knob lower down you smacked with the hammer to set the jack nails when you were done...might've been combined with a ripper for pulling nails when replacing one shingle...
Roofing nails for jacks are asking for it, the heads will fail before the shank. Screws are too brittle, a 150# plus roofer carrying a bundle stomping on a plank could cause it to fail. To hang a jack (and the red ones suck a$$, the galvanized adjustables are much better without compare) use at least a 12d, nailed into a rafter PLUMB as many as you have. Driving the nails plumb increases the thickness resisting shear on the nails' shank versus relying on the nailhead staying attached to the shank. It'll bend before failing. If you nailed a jack with roofers, you'd be lucky if you lasted past lunch on my crew. Two men with bundles on their shoulders will put a lot of stress on a jack, screw around and you have two brothers busted up permantely. Everybody thinks they can stop themselves from falling but experience proves otherwise.
Well I spent the whole weekend sheathing and felting the garage roof.
All went well.
I ended with two rows of jacks 4 jacks for each row with a 20ft 2x10--nailed each jack three times into studs with 16d and face nailed through the jack.
After I got used to being up that high it went really well so well in fact that I had to keep reminding myself that I was in constant danger. I didn't fall off the roof but a had a few mishaps (triping on wood while carrying the framing nailer, having a roofing stapler fall on my head when I tried to move a ladder) over the weekend that it made me realize that when things go bad they happen really quickly--there is no slo-mo in real life.
Anyway, shingles will go up in the next few weeks.
cjeTake what you want, leave the rest
Thanks for letting us know how it's going. We often don't hear back after someone gets their questions answered. Pics are always appreciated, too.
Sex is like art. Most of it is pretty bad and the good stuff is way out of your price range.
D**m, how'd you swing that long stick up around on the roof !
Use 16d penny nails,two of them in each jack. Nail into a rafter when ever possible. After you determine your horizontal layout, jacks are nailed away from the slots so there is no nail in the slot area in this row. When done, tap the bottom of the jack up towards the ridge.This makes the jack go up and slightly over to slide off the nails.Lift shingle a bit and tap nail down flush with the shingle. I used to use 2 1/2" roofing nails until I popped the heads of the nails on one jack. Luckily this jack was in the middle of three. The plank sunk down from my weight but I was okay. The heads on roofing nails are larger in diameter but they are much thinner than common nails.
mike
Why only two? With three the odds of failure are only less than one percent, with two, they up to maybe 20%, and with only one somewhere around 50%I'll use all three
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You're right, I have only used two 16d nails in the past. You make a lot of sense, I'll use three nails from now on. Sometimes old dogs can learn new tricks.
mike
better by far to learn here than two feet before you hit the ground;)
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I do just like the last poster - Put them in on top of a row of shingles. I hole them down as far as I can, and use tow 16D nails to hold them in. (I would never use screws)
When I'm done with them, I bump them up from the bottom until I can slide them up off the nails. Then I lift the shinge up and drive the nails down flush. Don't want them to pop up through the shingles they're under.
But that's only because I can't convince my Wife it takes three to tango.
If they are the red jacks thast holds a 2 x 8 from HD. They are only good for up to a 8/12 roof. They hold the 2 x level not like the ones that old 90 degrees to the roof deck.
___________________________________________
Common sense is a gift from God that cannot be taught.
here's some of our typical jacks.. we use 2x8 PT 14' planks (SYP ) with 3 jacks per plank ( 6' OC )
and they are good for all pitches 6 to 14
View Image
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 10/28/2005 10:26 pm ET by MikeSmith
I use 3 wafer-head screws (for hardie board underlayment) per jack. Strong, wide head and easy to install/remove.
Troy Sprout
Square, Level & Plumb Renovations
You'll be fine using 10d nails. I've always used 10d nails since we never used 16d nails for anything before.
joe... i never saw a 10d or a 12d until we switched to guns... never saw a sinker either..
it was always 6d, 8d, or 16d.. and on my jobs , no brights... only HDG
nowadays, we use a lot of 12d tooMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I have seen and used everyway mentioned here. My latest method relies on (A) whats in my pouch ( B) what exactly is going on the planks (C) who else is gonna be on or hvae to remove them (D) how far is it to the next bus stop safty.
I will use 2 8D's in EACH hole if I lack a single 16 for each hole..rarely would I dream of using a roofing nail being as I mostly only have 1" copper roofing nails on me..LOL
My coworker swears by screws for EVERYTHING even toe boards, I get too lazy to drag a drill around for the tear down, so I try to use nails, being as I always have a hammer and a weenie bar on me at all times.
Latlely tho, the closest we come to jacks, has been visegrips on the standing seams and chiken ladders..yikes! Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"I don't think it's funny no more" Nick Lowe.
Sphere, I saw those vice grips on your pics of that amazing roof job some where in horse country. I couldn't believe that they would hold, as it appeared that one was holding the whole ladder. You guys live dangerously.<g>
I've been doing it for close to 20 years and never seen one give way. The one's we use are vise grip brand and I buy about 15-20 new ones for a job like this. The Harbor Freight crap won't do for something like this. You also have to remember that your weight is mostly on the roof. The vise grips are mostly just stabilizing you.Birth, school, work, death.....................
"joe... i never saw a 10d or a 12d until we switched to guns... never saw a sinker either.. it was always 6d, 8d, or 16d.. and on my jobs , no brights... only HDGnowadays, we use a lot of 12d too"We toenail studs with 8d and rest of the framing is done with 10d.All bright commons except for going into the ACQ.Do you facenail or toenail your studs?Joe Carola
Joe, pardon me if I ask you to clarify what'll for sure seem like a 'dumb-arse' question to y'all down south, there.
Canada hasn't used penny designations on nails for as long as I've been here. Nails are spec'ed by length and type instead. All I remember of the penny sizes is from when I was a little kid, 'helping' my Dad work on our house. So I could be misremembering, duh....
But my memory seems to run counter to what you just posted to Mike. I've been operating on the belief that a 20d is a 3½-incher, a 16d is a 3-incher, an 10d is 2½"; 8d is 2". I don't believe for a second you're framing with 2½" nails and toenailing studs with 2-inchers. So can you give me the 'translation', please?
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
When I toenail studs with an 8d it's 2-1/2" and a 10d is 3". I think that a 12d is 3-1/4" and a 16d is 3-1/2. I'd like to try double D's because I think that they are pretty big...............;-)Joe Carola
Thanks, Joe. I'm gonna write that down somewhere if I can find some paper around here, LOL....
IIRC, the nailing sched in the code up here is a bit different than what you just laid out, but I oughta check before shooting off my big yap. What I used to use was 3½ for all stud, joist, and rafter assembly, but that was when I only had one Senco gun. Since I added a Paslode, we shoot a 3¼'s ('cause it won't handle a 3½) and I don't wanna have to keep two inventories. Then 2½" for strapping and 2" for sheathing and subfloors.
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Dino,
I've got the Paslode Impulse framer, and tho it says it's only good for up to 3-1/4", I've put both Senco & Grip-Rite 3-1/2" nails through it with no apparent problem.
Don
Good to know; unfortunately if I want to buy Senco nails I've gotta drive about 40 miles each way. The only local Senco dealer is an auto-parts store two villages down the 'pike. The local yards here carry Paslode and PC, and if Paslode makes 3½'s they don't carry them on the shelf....
Wish I still had the old Senco IV; that gun would shoot 2-3/8" concrete nails which was perfect for setting studs on floor slabs. My Senco III almost sets those, but not quite. I have to 'finish' each shot with a 2# sledge. The Paslode don't wanna hear about it. (OTOH, I remember driving 3" concrete nails by hand with a 16-oz claw hammer back when I was a kid. Talk about a long job....)
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
facenail the studs w/ 16dMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
never saw a sinker either
Never saw a sinker?!!!!
I musta hand driven a million of them. Occasionally the boss would drag in a box of commons that he found in his garage or bought at a garage sale. We'd dump them into the porch cavity.
blue
hey, old man..... i remember buying nails in wooden kegs...Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Oh Yeah? I'm older than that sonny.
In carpenter school, our books included information on building jobsite windows! And.....we were taught what that Octogon scale was used for on the framing square!
blue
you young bucks quit argyuing now. i gotcha both. bet neither one can cut square with a handsaw - and sharpen it too.
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I'll take that bet..what's the limit? Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
"I don't think it's funny no more" Nick Lowe.
Groan...
New old-timer on deck!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Why, when I was growin' up we lived in a shack, the water came through the roof when it rained...
two points if you know the punchline!
Hee Hee
I give upsounds close the the line, "We didn't own a pot to piss in not a window to throw it out of"
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"you had water?" said with an amazed/envious tone.......LOL
running water, no less, LOL
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Piffin, I'd have to own a handsaw to cut with one.
blue
bet neither one can cut square with a handsaw - and sharpen it too.
Daddy taught me to do that when I was six...using pieces of scrap red-oak strip flooring, the goniff! Took me twenty minutes to make one cut, kneeling up there on the three-legged stool so I was high enough to reach the wood clamped in his vice. The saw was longer than I was tall and I could fit both hands into the grip....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
It's a skill more youg'uns oughta have, but I'da started you out on pine.
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I started Ryan out on Bread, using a saw-toothed bread-knife. Same thing, but no muscle required. And if ya wanna talk about 'tear-out' from sawing clumsily....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
What kind of clamp you use on bread?LOL
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
and what kind of screws?Birth, school, work, death.....................
http://grantlogan.net/
Canadian, of course!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
You don't need clamps or screws if you use a good grade of glue...like home-made peanut butter. That'll stick to anything, especially the roof of yer mouth....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
hey, old man..... i remember buying nails in wooden kegs...
View Image
Ah, those were the days....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
I'd use as many of the holes as possible and, make sure you hit joists with the (LONG) nails. The one time (years ago) that I was not careful about this, I had installed jacks to paint a dormer. I was surprised (to say the least) to find myself unexpectedly rushing to meet the ground, with my planks and paint fast on my tail. Lucky I wasn't hurt, but I sure learned my lesson!
Mike Hennessy