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I’m posting this thread to generate some discussion on building a curved stairway and railing. With all the complexities and craftmanship that goes into the fussing and fitting that a lot of us are not familiar with, hopefully we can get some solid advice and pictures to go along with our chat session. I should point out that I’m on the learning end so only questions and thoughts from me.
Thanks,
Tony
A high-performance single-family home builder shares tips from his early experience with two apartment buildings.
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Replies
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I work for a stair company, and would think it would be very hard to build one by following directions over the internet, not impossible, just very difficult. Try going to a job with someone building one and watching. I can think of a lot of tricks to make things easier, but would be hard (for me) to explain in print. Alot of people here have much experience doing stairs/railings, and I'm quite sure that they (and myself) can answer specific questions reguarding a particular problem, but to explain in general how curved (or somtimes straight) rails and cases are built are the things entire books are written about.
*Tony: Chris is right. Curved stairways are hard to explain. However, if you have a specific stairway that you could give us the floor to floor height, foyer size, etc., there would be several including myself that could take you through the layout procedure.From there, I would give my methods for actually building this stairway. Everyone has different methods, but in the end, what is important is that we all end up with a nice stairway.I would be more than happy to make some drawings, post some figures showing how you arrive at a stairway that has a comfortable walking line, meets code, etc. Curved stairways are complex, but can be broken down into a bunch of simple steps, no pun, Ha.
*Tony: If say you do not have a particular stairway you need figured out, I could post one of several that are stored in my computer that have been built, or are being built.I have many pictures that I could post that should be able to help you see that you can build complex curved stairways with a minimal amount of equipment.In my case, I have a small stairshop, with just my wife as a part time worker. My equipment consists of a cheap table saw, 8 inch jointer which I just upgraded from a 6 inch one, thickness planer, a good router with lots of bits, the rest is just simple jigs and hand tools.
*Stan, How 'ya been?, somehow I knew you'd find this one. Figure how to cable a curve yet?
*Chris: How is it going? I am still going in circles, myself. I never got the cable idea to help much yet. I will pursue it big time on my next freestander.I don't do many of them, its just I am always experimenting.
*For starters I would like to emphasize building staircases is like skinning a cat, namely there is more than one way to do it. Most of us who do it full time for a living have developed our own methods to make the job go easier (for us). I for one would like to see how other people go about it and learn something new in the process.
*Armin Hammer: I agree. However, I get a lot of closed minded visitors to my shop that come from some of the nationwide stairbuilding firms out of Chicago. They do not think like you or I.They are out of the shops that have millions of dollars of equipment and over a hundred employees. They just don't get how I build curved stairways with such little equipment. They don't realize that a lot of us had to train ourselves, buy our own equipment, and also pay the bills. I love to visit their huge shops that kick out 12-1500 stairs a year, but I only do 12 to 15. However, when they start mocking my little shop, I quickly let them know that it is paid for, my wife does not have to work at all, and my biggest problem is the taxes I must pay for being successful at it. Sorry about that, I will step down from my soap box.Anyway, like you said, there is more than one way to skin a cat. I need to ask you more questions, and I will be soon, cause you look like you can really skin cats quite well.
*Stan,Maybe you could start by explaining how you approach a job like the one with the Enkeboll balusters or the hickory unit. After you get your floor to floor numbers how much of an opening space do you need, to have a smooth flowing curve? Once you have all the numbers above, how do you start laying out your assembly? What determines the radius of the curve? How are the stringers made?Thanks Tony
*Tony: It will take a lot of posts to handle this. Lets start off with a basic stairway. Do you understand laying out a straight stairway? If you have a little trouble with a straight one, we should discuss their layout first.
*Tony: They say a picture is worth a thousand words, so I will post a few here. These are pictures of curved stairways being built in my shop. If you notice on the floor the poster board? I have drawn the inside and outside radii for the stairs I am building. The risers are also plotted on the arcs. Basically it is just a full size plan than I build vertically from. The 2 x 4 forms are projected vertically from the stringer lines. Each riser face is plotted equal distance along the arcs I have drawn. I use the forms to laminate my stringer material to. These laminates follow a constant rise from each riser face point, thus making a nice helical path. This path this stringer takes would be nothing but a straight line if this stringer were flattened out. So basically, if you follow a straight stair layout, then you are ready for going in circles. Imagine the layout out of a straight stairway along a wall as a big right triangle. The horizontal side is the run of the stairs, the verticle leg is the rise, and the sloped side is the pitch of the stairs. Now imagine this triangle drawn on a big sheet of paper. A curved stairways outside stringer is nothing more than this triangle being wrapped aroung a vertical cylinder. You have a constant rise/run elationship as the straight stairs has, its just also turning at a set radius.There of course are a few formulaes you need to apply to figure these out, but as we get into this slowly, I am sure others will chime in. I will post a few pictures of these forms and you can study them to think of some questions to ask. This is a very typing intensive topic as there are a lot of variables in laying out a stairway.
*Another shot of same stairs
*A third shot
*Heres a jump to present time. Obviously we skipped some steps, no pun, but the stairs on the right is the almost finished stairs. It is all in hickory.
*Heres another view of the almost finished hickory stairs. There is no scotia trim on as yet, as I am getting ready to clamp my rail bending forms to the tread nosings.
*Tony: This particular stairway that I just posted several pictures of, turns 170 degrees, has a floor to floor height of 132 inches. It has 17 treads/18 risers. Each tread turns exactly 10 degrees. The outside stringer has a wall face radius of 96 inches. The inside wall radius is 46 inches. I would be more than happy to run the figures for you to show that this is a comfortable stairway. I can also show you stairs I have been forced to build that I thought were less than comfortable. I try and stay away from them and let someone else build them. I have noticed that a lot of homes are designed first, then the stairs are made to fit the available space. The most desirable way is to design the stairway first, having comfortable parameters, and then build the house around it. I am amazed at ARCHITECT designed homes that have stairways that looked like a high school freshmen class designed the stairs.
*Stan, Judging by times on your posts it seems like you get less sleep than I do. I attend college at night and have been busy writing literature papers, not my major by the way, (your never too old to learn something new!) So my participation will be sporadic, sometimes during the day but mostly later at night.Anyways this is turning out to be a excellent learning post with yours, and hopefully others, extensive efforts. And you back up your words with pictures which allow us to analyze your work. (I also have to mention Pro-Dek for his contributions in outdoor work as well)By the way I do understand a stair layout. Not yet on a curved one. Do you use a center stringer for support? How do you determine the wall radii? What is the width of the stair? How do you attach the stringers to the walls to make their removal easy for disassembling? In the second pic the inside stringer has a horizontal cut while the outside stringer has a vertical plumb cut, any reason?Thanks Tony
*Tony: That vertical cut on the outside stringer is the finish cut for it. The horizontal cut on the inside stringer is just my stringer laminates running wild. They will get cut vertically right behind the first riser.I do not use a center stringer at all. I pocket screw and glue the top of the risers to the bottom of the treads. It makes an i-beam effect out of it. This is far stronger than nailing through the treads. I also screw and glue the bottom of the risers to the back of the treads. The wall radii is determined by measuring from the top landing header to the wall that the circle will be tangent to. I then set the spring line of the stairs about 1.25 inches in front of the header. This gives 1/2 inch behind the top riser for wiggle room when installing. The spring line is the face of the top riser projected to the center of the stringer radius.In the case of this hickory stair, the outside wall radius is 96 in, the stairs is 49.75 inches wide to the inside stringer face. If you want, I can go through the walking line calculations. This assures a comfortable and legal stairway. I am going to have to go right now, but I will post much more, I promise.Attached is a picture of the inside stringer on my workbench. Notice the pocket screws on each tread cutout. I use 2-3 hundred screws each stairway. This stringer has a solid hickory face laminate. The stringer consists of 4 layers of 1/4 inch luan, along with a 5/16 face laminate. Solid strips of hickory cap off the laminates making it look like it is all solid hickory throughout. The outside stringer is just temporaily screwed to the bending forms. When I am ready to move it, the stairs is just left standing on props. Then I get about 8 guys to load it on a trailor. I move the whole stairway right through the front door ,and set it in place. The outside stringer is lagged to each stud inside the stairway with 3/8 x 4 inch lag bolts.
*Tony: Here is an outsidecurved stringer that shows how I have mortised for the treads and risers. I use oak wedges from inside to drive the treads and risers up tight into their mortises. It is a very strong, and time proven method. I use a template that guides my router to do this. There have been several articles in FH about this detail.
*This is an elliptical stair on moving day. I took a vertical shot of it showing how each tread is a different pattern.
*Tony: Here is another stair that I installed a few months ago. Again, these are the stringers being worked on on the forms. You can see the outside stringer already routed.
*Same stair with the treads and risers in, and the handrail being glued up on the treads.
*Tony: Here is this same stairway installed with a view down the railing before the balusters were put in.
*Tony: Here is another view of the hickory inside stringer. It goes in the stair to the right in the background.
*Tony: Heres a stairway after the forms have been stripped away. This is ready to load.
*Hey Stan,I admire your contibrutions to alias tony's education.But your first few post, as well as the others, are correct.This is just too much to try to explain in words. However, you're doing a fine job of it. You should write a book.Those of us, like you, who do this for a living know that this is a subject not for the beginner or the faint of heart. It can take many trial and error efforts to refine a method that works for the individual. I always build them in place. You, and others, build them in the shop. That idea scares me to death.One mans meat is another mans poison.I'm enjoying your post and pictures.Thanks,Ed.
*Stan, A few questions. How much does the typical stair shown weigh? How long does it take to build one? How fast could you do it if rushed? How much extra would that cost? Do you cut the open stringer with your router? Wanna give a 'plug' to your router? How do you actually mark the stringers? A jig? Ever seriously damage one in transit? What is the farthest you've ever shipped one? Do you insist on installing them yourself? ThanksRick Louquet
*Ed: Thanks for the comments;Now for me, I love doing as much in my shop as possible. I do not like working in the field near as much. I have a system that works for me. So far I have never had to trim the wall stringer. I have always supplied the curved wall plates, and also marked exactly where they go according to my springlines. It would be a nightmare if my stairs did not fit!That hickory one I have in the shop is going to be the largest I have ever moved. The largest stairway I have ever built, I installed early this year. I had to build it in my shop. disassemble it then reinstall it. It was a freestanding stairway with a 153 inch floor to floor height. I will post several pictures right now of it.Thanks again Ed.
*Anothe shop view
*some finished shots;; pardon the clutter
*StanYour work is beautiful! I think Ed is right on... write a book if ya do I'll put in an order for my copy right now. Tauton Press will help you with this I believe, at least a few articles in FHB. You have alot you can teach the rest of us. I can build simple stairs but the curved stairway adds so much! Wish I could watch you work for a few weeks, I'm sure I'd learn volumes.Humbled!WTN
*Heres a shot of this stairs stringers being built
*Western: Thanks, but seriously there is so much more talented stairbuilders than I. I just am a small stairshop, minimal tools. Hey, I may as well post a picure of it. This was taken last winter of course.
*Edward, I agree with you circular stairbuilding is a bit to complicated to descibe in words, Stan however seems to be pulling it off nicely. Like Stan I build everything in the shop but take it one step farther and disassemble the stairs into components prefinish everything and deliver the pieces to the site. The first two I ever built I did on site. Never again, just to much travel time plus I prefer to have my whole arsenal of tools handy. The downside is wondering weather it's going to fit in the opening. Sofar knock on wood they all have.
*Western: Thanks, but there are stairbuilders much more talented. Just look at some of Armin Hammers work. I enjoy what I do, I just have a little shop in the woods. Heres a picute of it, in Illinois.
*Rick: Sorry, I almost missed your post. A stairs typically weighs around 600- 700 pounds. I did a brazillian cherry one early this year and it was much heavier. That hickory one I have posted will take at least ten guys to install it. It is extremely heavy. I just figure around 3 to 4 weeks on a total start to total install. I am very layed back about it, and am not killing snakes in my shop trying to see how much money I can make. I am enjoying making less money and not rushing anything. I am at a point in my career where I can pick the projects I want to work on. The open stringer, mitered one, is cut with my little dewalt cordless. I have router jigs made out of mdf to route the mortised stringers. I just have a three horse Makita. I am going to buy a DeWalt soon however.I have never damaged one yet in transit. I try to stay within 50 miles, but have gone 120 miles to Springfield Il. I always install the stairways. I try to have the contractor do the railing because I do not care to work in the field much. But rarely do I get out of installing the railing also. I just would rather set them, then get back to my shop.
*Tony,
View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Joe: I still shake my head at your graphic capabilities. I take 40 times as long to draw something 1/40th as nice as yours. Your stairs also are to be complemented. This would be a good time to post some pictures. I never will forget my FIRST curved stairway. I went over to Bloomington Il. sniffing around for a moonlight stairway to build. I ended up coming home with a contract for a curved stairway and a $5000 up front payment. I spent much of the money on parts, etc, and remember getting this awful gut ache out in my shop one night. I just grinted my teeth, and said to myself, I will get it built somehow. Anyway it turned out well for me ,and I did two more for the same guy right away.Nice hearing from you again, Joe.
*Joe, I agree with you, that circular staircases are much less difficult than many think. There is no black magic, just numbers, the same one's we deal with everyday. I think circular stairs give the same tremble to experienced carpenters that roofs and straight run staircases give to novices. Once you get into it and start figuring things out, it all makes sense. That is not to say that Stan, Armin, yourself and all others who have posted don't do nice work. I think everyone would agree that they are impressed by the pics so far.Stan, Joe's graphical calculations are merely CAD drawings. I think every professional tradesman should have at least rudimentary CAD skills. The flexibility that they give one to modify drawings is invaluable in working on complicated layouts. I'm sure Joe would attest to this fact also. Joe is not a computer wiz (at least his CAD skills don't make him one), he just uses every tool at his disposal, and invests the time and effort to become a skilled user of the new tool, much as he has practiced the other tools in his shop (want proof, see his website). You know the old cliche, a picture is worth a thousand words. Well, Joe understands this and uses that principle to clear up misunderstandings by posting a picture to explain what many words cannot. Having said that, great work everyone.Jon
*Stan,
View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Jon,
View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Stan,
View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Joe Fusco,Does this sound familiar?000-Main-Module Perform 100-Initialization-Rtn. Perform 200-Process-Record-Rtn Until Are-There-More-Records = "No ". Perform 300-Termination-Rtn. Stop Run.Tony
*Joe: The numbers are real close. I tend to use a walking line 15 inches from the center of the habdrail. My 3.5 inch newels are flush with the return nosings, so that makes it 16.75 inches.My stringers are 1.25 inches thick, as this stairs will have a wall under the stringer.The treads are just over 49 inches.
*Stan,Nice hideout in the woods, is it still snowing in Illinois!! In my part of upstate N.Y. we had snow on the ground from mid November until April this season. I just got through my cabin fever only a month ago.Your stringers look heavier than 1 5/16". Could you explain this spring line a little more. Also the walking line. In post #24 you have a closed skirt and an open side any reason both are not closed? How do you determine the wall radii when the stair is an open stairway with no walls on either side? In post #32 what is the length of each lamination, and when you first start how do you make up the total length? At what point do you cut out your treads and risers?Tony
*Jon: You are right. There is nothing really extra hard about curved stairwork, just a few different techniques. However, what is so nice about it is that most people do not realize this. With a little extra effort, they could be building these things and making a decent living at it without working that hard at it.Stairbuilding in general, not just curved stairways, as we all know, scare most people away from the start. They fear what little math one needs to know. Its not rocket science, but just a bunch of simple steps, no pun intended, Ha.
*Tony: One side is closed because that side is against a wall. The open side is for the style of stairs where the balusters go to the treads instead od a curb wall.The wall radius has to be such that you have a run of say at least 10 inches on your walking line. The walking line is theoretically the path the centerline of your body travels as it is ascending or descending the stairway. This is typically 15-18 inches from the inside of the stairway. This walking line is not comfortable to me unless it has a run of at least 10 inches. So with a typical 1.25 inch nosing, this gives you 11.25 inches of tread to walk on. As far as cutting out the treads and risers, I start at the top of the stair forms, and install a tread and a riser. Then I remove a 2 x 4 form stud, and repeat this all the way down. This assures that the stairs follows a true cylindrical form. If done carefully, the stairs will fit the wall in the new house as long as I supply the curved wall plates at the correct radius and set them to the springlines correctly.The outside stringer in post #32 is roughly 29 feet long. These are double stringers each 1.25 inches thick. This was a freestander and every trick I knew had to be incorporated into it to make it as strong as possible. The stringers consisted of 4 laminates of solid poplar each 5/16 inch thick. These laminates were 29 feet long and were made by milling down two 1 x 12 x 16 foot poplar boards to 5/16 inch. Then these two 16 foot laminates were scarf jointed together with an 8:1 ratio. That means that the laminates were milled on a long bevel that wa 2.5 inches long. 2.5 inches is 8 times the 5/16 laminate thickness, thus the 8:1 ratio. This gives a lot of glue area and minimizes the strength loss that a butt joint would cause. Of course each of these scarf joints were staggered in the stringer.Tony, as far as figuring radii of stringers, one has to take in available room, floor to floor height, etc. There is several things to consider on each stairway.
*Stan, I'm impressed, you must be very orginized to build such increadable stairs in a small shop. How do you manage to crank out 12 a year. My shop is 2300 sq ft. plus a separate building for lumber storage and finishing room.(see photo below.) The first floor is shop with a high bay at the far end for stair assembly. We live upstairs. I only manage to build 3 stairs a year max, I did one in 99 that took me 9 months, I thought I was going to retire on that one. How many people do you have working for you? I work alone with my wife as a trusty sidekick, good right hand woman.
*Armin-Hammer I just have myself and my wife comes out part time for glue ups, pocket screwing, etc.I usually take 3-4 weeks on a typical curved stairway. Each stairs is spread out over a 2-3 month period as I usually have 3-5 projects goung at the same time. Now that hickory one is about a 6 week project.That freestanding one took about 4 months. That stairway had Enkeboll stairparts in it. There were 404 balusters at $121.00 each. I had to turn down three curved stairways just to get to build it. I am glad I took it on, but this thing went in a $10 million dollar home. Lots of responsibility. There were many projects that had to be done over. I did not plan on being one of them. I did have a callback. One of my helical shaped rail fillets split. Heres a picture I took in my shop of my setup room. That stairs on the left has been in storage since January waiting on the house to get drywalled.
*Armin: I am really impressed with your spiral stairs. Now to me, these take a lot longer as there is much more handwork. Heres a spiral I built last year. The hardest part was the railing which was two rails seperated by 1.5 inch maple balls.
*some more views
*Heres a down view. The owners wanted the grain going symetrically like it is in this picture. I would have preferred it going parallel to the nosing myself. However, it creates a nice effect.
*Armin: Beautiful shop. Let me guess--- I bet you have one heck of a stairway inside that tower! Please post pictures of it, ok?
* Tony,
View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
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View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Stan, Ah,ehemm,cough, sputter, sigh!!. Yes the 1/4 tower should have a circular staircase, cherry and birdseye. BUT Like the shoemaker who's kids don't have shoes I'm the stairbuilder who still has a set of temporaries. I'm glad though I didn't build them with the house since back then I knew enough just to be dangerous. It's on the list for next year. I decided to put most of my money into tools and let a few things on the house go, my wife is into horses so I built her a barn instead of the stairs, she's all smiles. Below is a interior photo of the tower ceiling under construction. The towers were prefabed inside the shop and set with a crane, look for prefab tower post in breaktime tommorrow.
*Armin Hammer: Now that is impressive! I am sure from what I have seen of your projects, your stairway will be nothing but a masterpiece. I am kind of embarrased by all the compliments my work gets, when there are many others, and especially you that really deserve it more. I just happen to have gotten picture happy and have a bunch stored in my computer of various types. So it is almost too easy to attach them to various posts.Keep sending pictures Armin, I know when I open them, I will say WOW!
*Welcome to catskinning 101, Joseph's math is certainly one way to approach the subject. Initially I tried the math method but when it was all said and done the numbers still had to be trans-mutilated into reality. CAD drawings and reams of mumbers are handy to impress the client but beyond that they usually end up behind the seat of the truck. I start by going to the jobsite after the rough framing is in place.Just because the plans call for a 10 ft. ceiling ht. doesn't mean it's gonna end up that way. Having spent many years framing homes I'm all to familiar with the "That's close enough and it's good enough who it's for" measurments. I make a story pole with all the necessary virtical measurments marked and noted. Then I measure all openings, headers, check walls and floors with a digital level noteing deviations from level and plumb. I also take an abundance of photos. Back at the shop I cover the floor area with 1/8 hardboard, Light colored stuff so pencil lines show up, then I proceed to duplicate the walls and opening headers. This gives me an exact replica of the jobsite framing. Then I layout the risers on the story pole, shooting for the most comfortable rise. Next I swing the outside stringer arc going for the maximum size I can fit into the opening, (watch out for headroom)Next swing the radius for the inside stringer, usually the width of the stairs has been determined by the designer. Then swing a third arc, the line of travel or walking line (I use 14" from the inside edge of the handrail. Starting at the top of the stairs I step off 10" (minum) treads. Once the bottom tread is drawn you know exactly where you are in relation to the rest of the structure. If you still have room left you have the option of widening each tread a bit. Once I'm happy with my layout I coat the template with a fast coat of poly, this keeps the lines from wearing off while I'm working on the project. If anything looks questionable I peal the template off the floor and haul it to the jobsite and check it in it's final setting. Now I have full size layouts of everything, newel locations, baluster spacing, landings, turnouts the whole nine yards. Like the old saying goes "numbers don't lie but templates are idiot proof."
*Stan, I'm new at this computer stuff it's only been the last couple of weeks that I figured out how to post pic's. In case your wondering why I have so much free time on my hands to sit at the keyboard today. I had a wisdom tooth excavated on monday, It was a complicated ordeal and it feels like they used LUKA'S truck to yank it out, you know the truck he used to pop out the stump the size of a VW bus. My wife claims she never knew a grown man could whine so much. Anyway you need not apologize for the praise you are getting, your stuff is certainly worth it. I have a feeling you are a better businessman than I am. I am an artist first and worry about the money later kind of guy, looks good in the magazine articles but not always the best in the bank account department. Sometimes I get to bid against ARCWAYS and hit the motherload and other times I should have worked at the local filling station pumping gas, but after it's all said and done I like what I do.
*Hey Armin,Have you ever had a project like that "grow" on you during fabrication? That's gotta be my greatest fear. We do a lot of template and story pole layouts like you. I really don't trust the math either. I have been burned before by correct numbers that didn't work in the field.We are building some tight radius cabinet fronts right now. 5" radius. Flat panel drawer fronts and doors with stiles and rails and curved inset panel moulds.I took the half scale drawings from the architect and had them blown up full size. Try as we might, we are fractions off here and there, but the design is forgiving enough to accept that.I would worry about the integrity of the framing from floor to landing. If there is a bump out in the wall, wouldn't that affect the installation? I must admit that in my opinion it really takes a lot of nerve to build them off site. However, having seen yours and Stan's sucess with this method, I am starting to think in a new direction.I love the ceiling in your shop. We are now steam bending the mouldings for our curved doors with great sucess. How did you bend the ceiling boards?I'll charge up the digital camera tonight and take some pictures tomorrow. I must warn you, they will be large. I haven't learned how to size them down yet.Regards,Ed.
*Tony: You were asking how we go about making the curved railing. On this 170 degree hickory stairway, I will be clamping some shop made bending jigs to each tread. I will post pictures in a couple of weeks. I am presently awaiting the hickory bending rail to arrive. The rail profile I am going to use is 6510. It is 2 5/8 wide with 7 laminates. A curved rail twists about its long axis as well as bends when one is forming it up. We had a real excellent thread on this last winter. Joe, Ken, Ted, several others and myself contributed a lot to this thread. I started the thread asking how much the rail had to twist when bending around 90 degrees of cylinder travel. The answer is that it twists in degrees the amount of its inclination angle. In other words, if the rail is at 37 degrees pitch, then one has to twist the rail 37 degrees as one bends it around 90 degrees of cylinder.This is really not necessary to know as I made curved handrails for years not knowing exactly what it does twist. The bending jigs on the stairs automatically twist it the correct amount.
*Armin,
View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Gacc: Even thoug you asked Armin about the bump in the wall, excuse me for butting in. The worst wall that I have had did have a bump in it. It was a rogue stud. I sawsalled it 3/4 through from the just under the outside stringer, it was not structural, and then then two studs on both sides of it were able to be lagged to the stringer and it closed the one inch gap right up. Otherwise, the very worst gap I end up with may be in one or two spots where say a pencil would fit. I always have them blade this right to the stairway. I have never had to put any trim to date on my stringers. I do not go for just caulking them in either, even if it is paint-grade. A good mud man can handle small gaps. Like I said however, I always supply the curved wall plates and see that they are set to the springline correctly.A few years ago, I had to measure for a curved stairway that the curved wall was already built and drywalled. I could feel that the curve was not consistent. So in this case, I used the "spiling" technique. I screwed a 4 ft square sheet of luan in the center of the foyer, and used a spile to accurately record the actual deviations of this carpenter built wall. Then I placed this template on my shop floor and used the spile to accurately lay out my outside stringer forms. Just for curiousity, I checked this layout with a true arc, there was more than 1.25 inch deviation +/- throughout the curve. However, when I built the stairs, it could not be detected. Most important, the stairs fit fine.This is the picture of the stairway. It is a walk under style.
*same stair
*Ed.,
View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Tony: I have posted a bunch of pictures to maybe stir up any questions you may have on how I went about building these stairs. Beings this is a how to build a curved stairway, I just need some questions. Otherwise, like Chris said, books have been written on stairways, and it can be intensive at times.
*Stan,Allright I'm back in the mix again. Once again due to my night school and studies I'll will usually be able to log on in the evening and sometimes during the day. I'll do the best I can.That being said, there is a lot here to digest, but two excellent perspectives to look at. You and Armin with the site full scale plans and Joe with the CAD and mathmatical calculations. This is more intensive than a summer course in Statistics in college. Maybe the four of us should collaborate on a book in the future. Don't ever underestimate opportunity. Were all capitalists.I must admit that I'm still struggling with the initial layout procedure. But once I get it and I will, things will be much easier to comprehend.I think we need to go back to the stairwell opening and explain what exactly you all do when you first visit the jobsite. I'm still a little vague on the stringline and walking line and how it relates to the opening. Maybe a picture of an opening with an explanation of your methods would help. Sorry if I'm being a pain, but as long as your willing to work with a student of your work I'll keep firing questions. I'll bet a lot of people are getting something out of this too.ThanksTony
*Joe,What version CAD do you have? I'm getting a Auto CAD 2002 in September. Sounds like you took courses in CIS in school. By the way that is my major, I've taken Visual Basic, Access, Cobol, and still to come Advanced Cobol in September and RPG.Your diagrams are excellent and as any engineer will tell you the calculations never lie, only if you correctly take the correct measurements at the site. How do you actually take a wall radii measurement?ThanksTony
*Tony: I have a drawing that I can scan and post soon of this 170 degree stairway. It is too hard to try and explain the layout procedure without a drawing to follow along. I will try to post it tonight. I will attempt a brief overview below.In a nutshell, when I go to a jobsite, the upper landing is already in place. So then I figure a springline that allows 1/2 inch clearance from the back of the top riser. Note: The springline is the top riser face extended to the center of the layout. All the riser faces point to this center point. The springline is the starting reference point to layout the stairs from.In the case of this 170 degree stairs, I had 97.75 inches from the top header to the wall that the stairs will be tangent to after 90 degrees of rotation. I need 1/2 inch clearance between the back of the top riser and this header for some wiggle room. Since the riser is 3/4 inch thick, I subtract this plus the 1/2 inch clearance, and end up with 96.5 inches for the outside wall radius for the rough framing. Subtract 1/2 inch from this, and I now have a 96.0 inch outside finished wall radius to now start running numbers on to see if this stairway will fall into comfortable guidelines. Comfortable rise/run figures along the walking line.I will have to post a drawing to continue. I may have to repeat the above and keep it all in one post.It will be a large post when i do. Hope this is something to chew on till I get back with a drawing.
*Joe,I guess what happens with the math is for example:We calculate the rise and run using the same math that everyone else does. Sometimes the math won't hit on a solid fraction. Sometimes it's 6 7/8" heavy by a decimal or two. After the stringer has been layed out and cut with a circular saw, we might find a discrepency between a riser or two of a sixteenth or so. Or maybe a tread cut or two that is not on the level by a sixteenth or so. These are probably the fault of the sawyer who is doing his best with a skilsaw and a 2x12. I'm not sure I have ever seen the math work out to a perfect fraction or fall into place perfectly without a little give and take on the math.On paper the math is correct. In the field, it needs a little tweeking by a fraction or so to really work out evenly. That's what I've found to be true.I don't disrespect the math, and I wish I paid a little more attention in math and geometry classes back in school. Sometimes if the first floor and the landing arn't exactly perpendicular, you have to fudge the math.That's the word in the field.Ed.
*Stan,What's a spile?Ed.
*Ed, I agree with you, everything works fine on paper but in reality the math just gets you close the rest is up to the skill of the craftsman. A CAD program will get you the numbers but you still have to layout the bending forms and if your going to do that you may as well lay out the whole staircase full scale and eliminate all the guess work. Besides I can't imagine there are a whole lot of readers of this form who have a CAD program or a printer large enough to deal with stairbuilding. Personally all of Joseph's computations are mind numbing. Stairbuilding is not rocket science and can be accomplished with a basic knowledge of math along with good building skills.
*Armin,
View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Joe, I agree with you. The numbers NEVER lie! IT is impossible for them to do so. To all who question: what's two plus two? Unless you're all into relativism, the answer will be 4. At the jobsite it's 4. In the shop it's 4. In the CAD program it's 4. Down under with Mark it's 4 (even though the water spirals the wrong way...). The problem always lies with using the wrong numbers to begin with or the wrong calculation. I worked with a carpenter once who insisted on using a string and actual measurements to figure all his rafter lengths. He didn't trust pencil and paper or rafter tables. What he didn't understand is that when a roof is at a 12 in 12 pitch, the rafter length per foot of run will always be the square root of 288. The problem is when the ridge is not perfectly perpendicular to the mid point of the wall. Then, the familiar roof pitch notation (as seen on prints) becomes a triangle with no right angles. That's when things get messy. Ed's example of accumulation of error is a good point. If the rise should be 7.392857142857", using 7-3/8" will suffice for a while, but if the rise requires 14 risers, the stair will be exactly 1/4" short. The key to using math successfully is to understand the conditions which MUST be present for the calculations to work, and knowing how to adjust the formula to compensate.Jon
*Tell me all you math wizards do you use a wood micrometer, do you sand 10ths of thousands off the end of a board to achieve your degree of precision? Do you climate controll your jobsite? Because if you don't the first person who opens the door and changes the humidity is going to swell your 7.392857142857 precision inches right out the window.If all of the above mattered no one but an Einstine would be able to build stairs. I never said math wasn't important just there is an easier way to achieve the end result without boggling your mind with a bunch of formulas. A layout stick stepped off with a set of dividers will get you the same results as math, AND will allow you to check your work as you go AND allow you to make adjustments if necessary. If you are trying to impress someone with your knowledge of CAD or math then by all means dig up all the formulas and dazzel the audience. I for one would rather be known as the fine craftsman who can make it look easy rather than try and convince the world that you have to be a genius to build this stuff.
*Ed, answering your questions from post #61. Yes I have had projects grow on me thats why I like to use layout sticks; I can check everything before it gets a chance to run to far off course. I also do a complete mockup of the stairwell hole in the shop this way there are no surprises on the jobsite. I also build the common wall with the stairs. I make sure the studs are straight with no bumps in it. If the contractor insists on building his own wall then I check it before the drywall is applied, shimming and shaving as necessary. In short I take responsibility for everything that affects my stairway. If I get called to a job where the drywall is already inplace I check everything with a straightedge, if it looks like a problem I get them to fix it of I just don't fool with the job. Even at that sometimes there is a slight difference but that only calls for a creative solution. It's a little tougher for me because all my stuff is delivered prefinished ,I allow for some error and get creative in the final stages of installation. The bowed ceiling in my house was laminated. I milled away a 20 inch section of the back of the paneling where the bend was, leaving about 1/8 of the face. Then I filled in the back with 3 laminates glued over a form of the required radius. It was fairly simple once I discovered what the spring back was. I have done several since then using a vacuum bag setup and it worked like a dream.I am looking forward to seeing your pictures. Armin
*Armin: I use basic trig all the time on my layouts, along with story poles also. When I layed out this 170 degree stairway, I drew a 96.0 inch radius circle on my shop floor, and use trig to layout exactly the 170 degree mark. I then nail a row of finish nails all along this circle and place a long thin rip of poplar around the outside of my nails and mark the 0 degree and the 170 degree point. This particular stairs turns 170 degrees with 17 treads, or 10 degrees a tread. I then accurately measure this 170 degrees of circumference and divide that figure up into 17 equal measurements with my calculator. I then reposition this strip on the floor, and now have very accurate even layouts for each tread. Using math and basic methods combined. The math I could not do without, but just physically drawing this 96.0 inch radius introduces errors that the math does not correct for. So my little strip accurately compensates for tape error, marking error, etc. So a little of Armins methods gives a practical balance to keeping things accurate.On straight stringers, I never step them off with a square, that introduces little errors that add up. I always figure the exact hypotenuse of each rise/run, and store this figure, then keep adding as I am marking out the stringer. There is no accumulative error this way. So in a nutshell, I found myself on both sides of the fence. Using fancy math, and then making it work with practical methods like story poles, strips of wood, etc. to keep everything correct.
*Ed: A spile is a straight rip of wood, say a 1 x 2 x a few feet, with a nail projecting out its end.You lay this spile down on your template and touch the nail to what you want to record. Then you draw around ones side of the spile, and its end. What you have then is a very accurate recording that when you go back to the shop, you can reproduce the layout perfectly. No math, no tape measure, just a stick of wood and a pencil You can't beat this method. Linoleum installers, and countertop installers use this method lots of times.
*Armin,
View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Stan, I agree with you, I also use a combination of math and layouts, the math gives me parameters to work within, then I forget about the 1/1000 inches and concentrate building the project using geometry.dividers,trammel bars and straight edges are my main layout tools. Everybody has their own method of choice, it's the end result that matters not how you got there.
*I have seen your work Joe, and I consider you a master craftsman with advanced CAD skills
*Armin: Thats why I gave that spile example. No tape, no math, simple as a stick, very accurate.Again, I must take both sides of this fence as I feel you do. Its fun to run the figures, and it is a good backup for eliminating errors. When I figure the hypotenuse of the stair layout for example, I divide the rise by the run, enter as the tangent, and hit the sin key. Exact hypotenuse to 10 places. But for a real quick backup check, I always use the a2 + b2 = c2 just to double check myself and assure that I did not fat finger the keyboard, or god forbid, a microprocessor error.
*Tony,
View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*Tony: I am posting some more pictures of this 170 degree stairway as I was working on its stringers. It is presently standing all assembled in my shop except fo the scotia trim is off. I am going to be laminating the hickory handrail soon. I will take several digital shots and post them.
*Tony: I found this one showing the balusters installed. I of course remove them and then ship it to the jobsite.
*Joe,Cobol and RPG are required courses for a CIS degree. A lot of people say that those are dinosaur languages, however, most banks, health care providers, insurance companies etc... still use it. As you should know CIS languages are business related. To get a degree in AS Computer Science takes you into C, C++, Assembly, and Java 1 & 2. Funny thing is they require Cobol and advanced Cobol as required electives. I'm almost finished with my CIS degree and I'm starting my duel degree in Computer Science which requires additional courses in Physics, Trigonometry, Calculus 1 and the languages mentioned above. I'm not here for the show, I'm here for the dough.Tony
*Stan,You install each baluster in your shop and then remove each one for shipping? Can you believe 95 posts so far on this thread. Goes to show how a challenging topic and good conversation amoungst craftsman brings out the best in us all. This is how a good book on a subject should be written, with objective opinions and solid dialogue with more than one point of view.That stringer has a wicked curve to it. The laminate on the face showing has light and dark streaks along its length, is that the hickory?Armin, Was that a Queen Anne turret I saw on your house in that one post?
*Armin, Actually, I do frequently use a caliper. In my opinion, every shop should have a caliper around somewhere. Want to know the EXACT diameter of that old dowel? Or sort out the mess of drill bits that you have in an old baby wipe box? A caliper is just the ticket. I don't think micrometers are necessary, because as you said, opening a door could swell a piece of wood 1/1000" or so. But still, I don't understand how story poles would compensate for this change. What is your story pole made out of? It's wood, isn't it? Wouldn't your story pole be subject to the same enviromental changes? That would be compounded by the fact that the story pole is most likely made of a different type of wood with different grain orientation, so the expansion/contraction would not be uniform between the story pole and the work... My riser example is only to show that even a VERY small deviation from a fraction (7.39.... as compared to 7.375, which is 7-3/8) can throw off a project, causing your project to "grow". Both you and Ed have proven my point in your posts. The difference is less than 1/50", but still enough to throw off the whole staircase 1/4". A story pole does not allow you to check your measurements any more than a tape measure does. What is a story pole? Is it not a numberless measuring instrument, the numbers not being necessary because the "ticks" are made directly from the pieces to be fitted to? Is a tape measure not a story pole with numbers? When I measure a joist to be 141-5/16", and then walk to the lumber pile and pull the tape out, mark at 141-5/16", am I not in effect using the tape as a story pole and the mark at 141-5/16" is like my tick? I really don't see the difference. The point that Joe made is very true. "Full scale is the only way to work. That's why I became involved with AutoCad in the first place. I became tired of carrying full scale templates back and forth from jobsite to shop. I have gotten to the point that I can replicate any field condition in my Cad program" My point is that sometimes a story pole is the quickest and easiest, so it makes good sense to use it. Other times, forget the story pole, use your tape, take some measurements in key places, go home and sort things out with pencil and paper, or a CAD program. Don't be afraid to use the numbers to your advantage.Jon
*Tony,
View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*While we're talking "in the round", here's some pictures of the radius cabinet doors we are building right now.Ed.
*Here's Peter Krause. He's the man who got stuck building them.
*Here's the steamer we're using. It's made of PVC20 using a new kerosene can to hold the water and a propane (what they call a bulldog) for the heat source. It works great.The rift white oak bends well, but we soak it for a coulple of days because it checks and splits pretty bad if you don't.I know this has nothing to do with stairs, but it does relate to bending mouldings.......such as a skirt cap or tread scottia or something like that.Ed.
*Here's our shop. It's not the whole shop, I couldn't get all 3500 sqft in the camera. But, I'm sorry to say, it all looks just like this.Now you see why we don't build stairs in the shop.Ed.
*Jon. You have a good point, and somehow my message is being mis interpeted. I'm not opposed to math or tape measures. I use both just like everybody else. I just rely more on the story pole, as an example: I set the unmarked pole on the finished first floor in the stairwell, strike a line where the second floor is( including carpet or hardwood)Then I set the pole on my bench, Measure the height between floors, do the math to find the number or risers, set the dividers to the projected riser ht. and step off the correct number of risers. I adjust the dividers untill I have equal spaces from top to bottom. Now I take the story pole with the riser marks to my shop and build a bending form for the stringers. I locate a stud on the bending form at every riser point. Then I take the story pole and mark off the corresponding tread heights on the bending form. This gives me the necessary rate of climb for the stringer along the form. Once the stringers are laminated I use the same story pole and mark off the height of every tread so I can set my template to route the dado's or cut the knotches if it's an open stringer. The story pole is marked at the jobsite after the floor framing is in place. It is almost impossible to make a mistake this way. I have done it this way for 30 + years and it's always worked for me, if somebody has a easier way I'm all ears. I would like to know how CAD would generate a full sized template of the curved stringer? How does it compensate for a less than perfect bending form? How do you transfer the layout from the template to the stringer to make your cuts? I admit I'm lo-tech so help me get up graded.
*You guys hammer out a little jam session as the wood steams, Dallas?Impressive work gentleman.
*Joseph, I read some of your earlier posts and all I got to say is Holy Crap you are pretty good at this CAD stuff. My apologies for lambasting your techniques. I work in a university town and any woodworker who carries the decimal point past the thousandts mark automatically gets tossed into the educated beyond their capacity heap. Anyway if CAD is comman as lint,does that equate to CAL, Computer Assisted Layout. If it does count me in.
*Armin,
View Image © 1999-2001"Take my word I'm a madman don't you know. . . . . ." EJ & BT
*Joseph,anyone who can actually build something using the knowledge they have accumulated is not considered "educated beyond their capacity". I guess I have been doing this for so long that I can see what it will look like in my minds eye. I must admit a CAD printout would help a person look more professional and point out a few things they may have overlooked.A instructor once told me "Lack of inexperience is the downfall of many a professional". The question of the day, if you would be so kind as to go to the gallery section, top of breaktime. I have a post Cherry & Wrought Iron Stairs. The third picture post shows a 180 degree climbing turaround. Stan raised the question how I made it. The following post shows a jig for shapeing the profile. I have this down to a science EXCEPT for the angle cuts on the rough blocks. Picture a 1/2 circle divided into 3 spaces, now take wooden blocks(roughly 3.75 x 4.5 x 8") each block slopes up and twists in relation to the next one. Would it be possible in CAD to determine what the angle cut should be for each face of the blocks? This is difficult to describe, in the past I used the CSM (crap shoot method)trial and error on styrofoam blocks till I got it close then duplicated it with a 3 axis router. The angle cuts are the missing link to making this cost effective, Would you be willing to help me with this, if so the next time I make one (not this year) I could send you some in progress photos so you could see exactly what I'm talking about. Thanks Armin
*Armin,
View Image © 1999-2001"Take my word I'm a madman don't you know. . . . . ." EJ & BT
*Joseph, this post has been down for so long my memory went to hell. None of my stair projects in the immediate future call for the animal in question so it may be a while before I need your help. At any rate I appreciate your offer and I'll be in touch. Armin
*Armin,
View Image © 1999-2001
*Just wanted to say I've just read all the posts and viewed all the great pictures and diagrams. Have learned a lot, and want to learn more. Keep em coming guys.....you all do beautiful work.Davo.
*Joe: I just now e-mailed you about a project I need your help on. I need your superb graphic capabilities.
*Wow...I have like a specific jig-construction question. When making the jig to route the gains for tread, riser and wedges, do you curve the jig (and possibly the router bottom) to leave the gain a consistant depth and curve the end of the tread or is the gain cut flat. How deep and all that. Thankful and in awe
*Arcwood: I make my templates out of 3/4 inch mdf. I kerf the back side 1/2 inch deep every 2 inches. These kerfs run vertically with the risers so it naturally bends correctly. If the radius is large, say around 100 inches, I just use my router as is. If the radius is small, say less than 50 inches, then I warp my router base slightly with some shims.
*arcwood, I make my routing jig from two layers of 3/8 bending luan. I put glue between the two layers and clamp it to the inside of the stringer for one hour. In most cases the router base is flat, with a tight radius stringer (see photo) the router base is still flat but I add a strip of wood along each vertical edge to keep the base from rocking. Debth of dado is 3/8 to 1/2 depending on application.
*Groovy...Do you also curve the wedges? Is it possible to deal this technique to the tight curve of the inside stringer? I am fond of using a 7 degree dovetail bit with a separate router to back cut the bottom of the wedge and its mating surface. Also makes driving the wedges in a little easier and I'm comfortable making them a little thicker.Thanks so much!!
*arcwood, the stairs do not have any wedges. I use pocket holes from the underside and cover the holes with custom caps. Keep in mind the stringers are solid hardwood laminates (no soft stuff)and the screws are #12 deep thread washer head. The previous post showed the inside stringer. The photo below is stairway under const. in my shop (top view with landing).
*A photo of the finished stair.
*Thanks Armin...really pretty and your technique is fine. Stan used the wedge routine about 60 posts back and that is what I'm curious about.
*Arcwood: The wedge method is when you mortise the treads and risers into a closed stringer that is not visible underneath. If you have a spiral such as Armins, then you need to use his methods, wedges would not be attractive to the eye. Using wedges in the stringers I am talking about is a very time proven method, I would not do it any ohter way.. Its stout, accurate, and makes a very tight joint.
*Armin,
View Image © 1999-2001"The first step towards vice is to shroud innocent actions in mystery, and whoever likes to conceal something sooner or later has reason to conceal it." Aristotle
*6 years ago when I started doing stairs full time one of the guys who past on the knowledge of circle stairbuilding used to say he would rather do a circle stair any day over a straight one. At the time I thought thats crazy because of the percieved difficulty. After doing both I can now see his point because instead of dealing with all the walls and landings that can be out of square and plumb and the easy reference points for the eyeball your now dealing with one trammel point in which all the radius are pulled off of. Its now just simple numbers, as long as your parts are built to the proper radius they really go togther very well. In a sense they are easier than a platform or say a T-stairs......just my 2 cents worth.
*Tony,I bought a freestanding backbone, CAD engineered and built on a CAD controlled jig (within 1/16" tolerance)from http://www.superiorstairs.com. Consists of an unfinished freestanding stringer/riser/tread assembly, completely assembled in one piece. I bolted mine in place temporarily and have been using it as is during construction (2yrs). It's a fine start for a custom built stair, as you can laminate your outer finish skin wheather drywall, wood, corian, etc... and bend if desired to alter the curve AFTER it's sitting in your house. They naturally also do complete stairs, but I got mine at this level so I could personalize it to my taste. (And we'll see how that turns out!) Anyway, I'm not affiliated in anyway other than a satisfied customer. Best to call Mike and discuss, their website is still a bit primitave. Hope this helps.Bill Smith
*Allen: I have the same opinion as you. I personally think a curved stairway is easier than an l-shaped stairs. I am building an l-shaped right now in my shop. It has a section with winders in it. It takes more calculating to get the newel post right, etc.
*Hey Stan...Check up to post 116. I know and use the wedge method on closed stringers and have used it successfully where the wedges showed. The fantasy is to show them on both sides of a curved set. Please indulge.
*Armin, do you use a drawknife to bring your angle blocks down to the rails or do you have some other method? Don PS nice stairs
*Don, I use a angle grinder fitted with an assortment of disks and custom cutters. With a little practice and patience it works very well, not a good thing to do if your workin off a hangover or got the shakes.
*Armin, where do you find these disks and custom cutters?thanks, Allen
*Allen, the disks just the no frills disks in various grits used with a soft rubber backed pad, should be able to find them anywhere. I use 40, 80 & 120 grits. The cutters are steel disks coated with chipped carbide. I had several shapes made, they cost a bundle about $150 each and that's with me furnishing the base plate with the profile. I have a metal lathe so I turn my own. These things almost cut too fast even with the finer grit chips. I also use a die grinder with the same carbide chip bits. Standard profiles are avail from Woodcraft and other supply houses. After that it's lots of sanding. If you try this method you will wonder why I haven"t been committed to an institution yet, trust me after you have done a few it gets better.
*Well then ,that sounds like more fun till you got to the part about lots of sanding . Don
*Arcwood: I don't quite understand what you mean with the wedges exposed on both sides. You mention curved wedges awhile back, what I do is cut wedges that are as long as the width of the tread at the stringer. Many times this is 15 to 20 inches. I then cut this wedge into 2 or three pieces, and place them in the mortise in order. For all practical purposes, this keeps the wedges at the bottom of the curved mortise.
*Ok...I did a set of straight run stairs a while back with the treads and risers morticed and wedged on both stringers and visible from underneath. Made the wedges pretty, rounded over and all, cleaned off the glue. Was thinking that something like this is possible for a curved set. Make the wedge stock on the respective stringer when the inside face is where the bottom of the mortice will be. Sort of a fantacy thing rattling around in my head.
*Arcwood: OK. I see what you mean. Funny thing happened a few years ago. I set a curved stairway, and came back a few months later for finished pictures, I opened the closet door inside the stairway expecting to see drywall. All I saw were clothes rod attached inside my stairs, wedges, screws, glue runs, everything was showing. They said they loved the mortised treads, risers, and the wedges. I told them if I had known that this was going to be the finished look, I would have at least not been so liberal with my glue. Ha. Anyway, I try to keep it neat inside. I am sure all you would have to do is cut some correct radius arcs to make your tapered wedges. That should look presentable.
Stan,Do you remember the title of that thread? I've tried looking but can't seem to find it.Thanks,
Keith
Tony: You were asking how we go about making the curved railing. On this 170 degree hickory stairway, I will be clamping some shop made bending jigs to each tread. I will post pictures in a couple of weeks. I am presently awaiting the hickory bending rail to arrive. The rail profile I am going to use is 6510. It is 2 5/8 wide with 7 laminates. A curved rail twists about its long axis as well as bends when one is forming it up. We had a real excellent thread on this last winter. Joe, Ken, Ted, several others and myself contributed a lot to this thread. I started the thread asking how much the rail had to twist when bending around 90 degrees of cylinder travel. The answer is that it twists in degrees the amount of its inclination angle. In other words, if the rail is at 37 degrees pitch, then one has to twist the rail 37 degrees as one bends it around 90 degrees of cylinder.This is really not necessary to know as I made curved handrails for years not knowing exactly what it does twist. The bending jigs on the stairs automatically twist it the correct amount.
Stan,
I think you may have changed your email since this was posted. I've been trying to find the thread you mentioned- do you happen to remember what it was called?Thanks,
Keith
Joseph,I'm going through some old posts on curved stairs and in your post "From here you can find a few more things about this stair. If you use the Pythagorean Theorem you can find the length of the curved stringer. Sqrt(stringer length) = 301.602 * 1322 or 329.22".I can't figure out where you got the 132 from. I know its 7 years ago but can you explain?Thanks,Keith
I think Joe is now just Joe.
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Man this place has changed in 8 years. Go back to the first page of this thread. You'd think we were all "meeting dad on prom night". Seems really formal to me compared to now.
*
I'm posting this thread to generate some discussion on building a curved stairway and railing. With all the complexities and craftmanship that goes into the fussing and fitting that a lot of us are not familiar with, hopefully we can get some solid advice and pictures to go along with our chat session. I should point out that I'm on the learning end so only questions and thoughts from me.
Thanks,
Tony
Tony some math for you
calculate inside and outside measurrement of stair treads
Radius X 2 X pi X 90 (degres for 1/4 circle) divided by 360 divided by 13 (number of treads)
For some real fun try to figure out how to lay out a declining tangent scroll based on a hyperbolic spiral or a spiral layed out in accordance to the golden ratio
I have a question about building a curved staircase. I am trying to make it somewhat miniature. It will be used for the Growing Up Girls Figuriines. These are glass or porcelain. I want to make it for a self supporting display for my grandaughter's 16 th birthday. I am trying to make it out of styrofoam but I am not getting the curve right. It looks more like a half moon. Or a letter C. I need it to be 6' wide between the railings and the steps would only be 1"-1 1/2 " high steps (thickness)The distance between each curve varies on the diameter of each doll . Would it be possible to create this with the proper dimensions??? If you could help with this I would appreciate a reply. Thank You, Cathy
The distance between each curve varies on the diameter of each doll .
the reason that the stair is "C" shaped and not a portion of a circle is that you are changing the tread depths. On a single point radius stair all parts (treads & risers) are the same.