A question about deck joist hangers
I haven’t been in the forums for quite a while now – just never seem to have any time anymore – but I have a question that client put to me, and a contractor almost started an argument about.
I’m a property inspector now (have been for a while), and I recently flagged a deck about 6 feet wide because it didn’t have any joist hangers at the rim on the outside elevation. This deck structure is completely cantilevered off the building (a townhouse) – no vertical support posts or horizontal resting beam of any kind. Joists for the deck are only sistered to the joists of the house (no idea how long they might be).
A contractor doing some repairs called me and got insulted that I’d even suggested that it need joist hangers, because he’s “been in business 25 years and never installed joist hangers on the outside rim joist of a cantilevered deck”
If there was a cross beam system, supported by posts, that the desk joists were resting on, I wouldn’t have flagged it, but with no other support, the handrail posts are only attached to the rim joist. And when I was building decks, we always added joist hangers to an arrangement like this, for some added insurance.
What do you guys think?
The person who says it can’t be done should not interrupt the person doing it. – CHINESE PROVERB
Replies
it needs the joist hangers on the rim to comply with code
also the rim has to tie the rail posts and they can work the rim loose without the joist hangers...
for about the first 20 years we never used joist hangers on the rim... but now we do
We always used to bolt rail posts sideways into the joist. Attaching to the rim has always seemed wrong to me, especially on a long run.If it is necessary to bolt to the rim for spacing reasons or whatever, joist hangers seem like a pretty poor way to prevent the rim from loosening over time as another poster said.John
we only use the simpson hangers... they all have 4 toe-nails built into the design
moot point.... the BI wants to see the hangers on the rim joistMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Would your BI really break balls over this on a cantilevered deck?
I would hope most ahj's would use more common sense.....
Bing
This is from the American Wood Council.http://www.awc.org/Publications/DCA/DCA6/DCA6-09.pdfThis is a prescriptive deck design. It has been updated IRC 2009.While some of the details have changed it IIRC most of the basic requirements are the same as the previous version.One thing that is new is the requirement for hold downs that go from the deck joist through the ledger, to the house joists. But that has nothing to do with this discussion.For decks with a rim joist and not a supporting beam on the end it shows the rim joist just nailed on, no hangers.However, it does not allow rail post to only be supported rim joist. It requires post to be connected to the joist via hold down brackets..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
The handrails in question are not captured inside the framing. If so, they could have been attached to both the joists and the rim. They're on the outside of the rim joist.
Not going to bite on any home inspector discussions (how or why we say the things we do), but the reason I called for joist hangers was an attempt to save either the owner or the buyer from having to re-locate the handrail system/posts inside the frame for safety. Some of the posts are located where a bolt couldn't easily be run through the rim joist to help stiffen the rail system.
I understand that if the rim is removed on a cantilevered structure it wouldn't change the integrity of the frame. But, since the handrail posts aren't attached to anything but the rim, I figured joist hangers, screwed on, might add a bit of safety. Sounds like most of you are saying they probably wouldn't help anything.
As for the building inspector thing - there was no code enforcement in this town when the building was built. As a matter-of-fact, there is a new FEMA requirement to make the entire county start a building permit system, and a lot of folks are up in arms about it.
The original contractor who built this townhouse development was one who had a reputation for cutting any corners possible to keep from spending an extra nickel. A lot of issues are being found, now that a code enforcement guy is checking on the recent remodels that are going on in these structures (things that would have been flagged years ago if there was a code official at the time).
The person who says it
can't be done should not interrupt the person doing it. - CHINESE
PROVERB
I think that structurally it is pointless, as long as the joists are solidly nailed to the rim in a way such that it couldn't pull away from the joists....ie; toenailed from the back in addition to through nailed.
However, if the rail runs back to the house, then it couldn't really roll forward and pull away, could it? The joist hangers offer no support whatsoever in this case, and in fact neither does the rim, really. I understand that it stiffens it somewhat, and gives the rail a point of attachment, but you could pull the rim off completely, and the deck surface would be no less solid...correct?
I know that this is probably a case of c-y-a for you as an inspector, and without seeing it, I can't argue too vehemently. It would be more of a concern to me, frankly, that I couldn't make sure that the joists ran 12' into the structure (2x the cantilever rule of thumb) and that they were attached correctly.......
I've seen some good inspectors that helped people keep from biting off more than they can chew, repair wise, and stopped sales in which someone was about to be screwed over by an unscrupulous seller or builder. I've seen others that have raised ridiculous points about #### that they knew nothing about, and scared people off from good houses for no good reason other than ego. "I found things wrong". I don't know which type you are, but I'd probably fall into the po'd contractor category, if the rest of the deck is solid and correctly done and flashed....
my .02
Bing
If the intent is to keep the rim joist from pulling away from the joists then joist hangers aren't the right hardware for the purpose. They are engineered primarily for vertical support. Simpson does have other connectors if you felt them necessary. I'm not sure how having a beam would help the rim joist stay put.
What do I think? I think the decks that Mike and I built for decades without hangers are fine. Of course today, with Simpson writing the code book, we all of a sudden, need hanger and special nails everywhere.
My question to you is this...if the rim was removed, would the joist fall or would they stay up there because they are cantilevered? That is my litmus test.
The attachement of the rail is a separate issue. I personally never counted on the rim to hold my posts up. That would be substandard thinking in my book even if you put double hangers on every joist. There are better ways to anchor the posts and rails and no Simpson stuff is needed.
Why would you need joists hangers at a box on a cantilever deck? Where are the joists going? If you took the box off, the joists would still be there. They are sistered into the existing joists.
Lets say you built a 14' deck with a ledger bolted to the house and the girder was set in 2' from the end creating a 2'cantilever. After nailing the box on the outside, do you think you need joists hangers?