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Adrian, I always install cabinet backing in the framing process, also try to crown the studs at the same time where the cabinets will go. But as
as far as plumbers; the dumber the plumber the smarter the water.
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Replies
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Adrian,
Man I must be slow.... What special kind of blocking do you need or want? We block for grab bars, TP holders, towel bars, curtain backing, door stops, shower pans, fire blocks..... somedays seems like it would be easier to build it out of solid wood and carve out the parts they don't want :}
Regards,
Dormer
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Blocking's for babies.
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RJT -
RE: Plumber + Sawzall = major structural damage.
Sawsalls?
Those are for sissies. Take too long. Our plumbers have little chain saws. Now that's a scary sight. They can move some wood with those - and do. One Swath of Destruction coming up.
One - a Manly Man - had a saw with a 36" bar. Terror in the tracts. That's a feller's saw. That should be out on a logging show, not in something we just finished framing. Just think: Bill the Cat.
ToolBear
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Blue,
Now you have identified my customer base.
*I wish you guys worked in my area. If I mention blocking (just for the cabinets, heaven forbid for TP rolls or suchlike)most people look at me like I have two heads. You are also confirming me in a growing feeling that i have to be able to control the whole process (reno's, anyway) from the framing through to the cabinets to guarantee quality and be able to get a good result at the finish stage. As an aside, I taught cabinetmaking in a community college program for a while. I made sure to take my students through a structure the carpentry students were building for the plumbing program, first with a really good carpenter (who was the other instructor in our program), and then with the plumbing instructor, plus a lecture with the plumber on 'What a cabinetmaker needs to know about plumbing in construction', so they have an idea about how the pieces go together and the other guys think. Sort of a longwinded way to say I wish more guys thought about the next guy along.
*Lets not forget the HVAC guys... especially in timberframe structures... "lets see... cut this 6 x 8 out of the way... run my return air..."
*Blocking is overrated! Do you guys want to put the molly manufacturers out of business?How heavy is a roll of toilet paper anyways? There's at least three inches on all windows, if you want drapes widerthat that, order larger windows!I actually can only remeber one builder wanting blocking like that. I never framed one for him again. I do however, put a handrail block where a handrail butts a wall.If the cabinet people want blocks, they should come out at the end of the rough, and layout the exact placement of the units. I think I could take care of their blocking needs for 100$ or so.Blue
*Rob, your welcome for identifying your base!What is your customer base?Blue
*Hold 'er, boy.It's not so overated when you've got a hundred pounds of cabinet in your arms and can't find the stud, cause who knows what the framer was thinking that day. And i do ALWAYS go talk to the carpenters, so we both know whats going on, whats going where, and I don't expect them to do it for free. It just makes for a better job.In my humble opinion.
*Blue,b "The Practical Man" by the Blue-Eyed-DevilI'm in total agreement with you again...would you save me time by putting my name on your posts from now on? Thanks...And I'll bring extra milkbones to the Lake for the party.J
*Sorry Adrian, you gotta buy one of them thinga ma jiggies that locate the studs first. Then you drill through holes through the cabinet in the appropriatly layed out marks. You then place a screw into the through hole and when you slam that cabinet into place, screw away, into the stud, exactly where you are supposed to! I hope you have that $100 bucks in your hand when yu start laying out the blocking for me! And even then, you better come back, 'cause I'll probably stiff ya' afew times till you're readyto do the blockin' yourself! If I was agood blocker (i'm not), I'd be playing for my favorite NFL team! Who won last year, that's my favorite?!Blue
*Call me practical, callme cheap, call mea an owl saver, if you must. I've spent a lifetime streamlining my building process, and I'm not going to entertain anybodies flippant demands. They are more than welcome to come and frame away after I'm done. Don't start till I'm done though, I've been knownto remove stuff faster thatn you can yell "SToP, Don't throw that 4 hour project out of the house!"Did I hear milkbones?!BlueDitto: copycat jack
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We also block our walls for cabinets. We have our own cabinet shop so we often let them do it but over the years we have learned exactly where they need them and the time it takes is minimal and the materials are often cutoffs. Even though someone might be called a "framer or a finish person" we often wear diffeent hats and it is not fun balancing cabinets while hitting a wain in a stud.Also in our crews you will not hear (well maybe as a joke) "leave it for the finish guy...or whomever" We will also pre-drill some studs or joists if we know it will save having the plumber or others from chopping a load bearing wall apart. As far as the guy with the chainsaw he would not be back on one of our jobs. Ive never figured out why plummers etc dont have to take structural classes.We had one cut through a 4x6 floor beam and not even blink an eye.Electricians can be.....
Oh no Ive been caught by my wife...yes dear I'm getting off the computer now........
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Josh, if I spent the "minimal" time framing the "minimal" useless items that I have been asked to frame, it would add 5% ot my time, maybe 10%!
In my lifetime, I will be able to frame one house a month. That's 12 a year, and I will work 35 years. That totals 1,235 houses in my lifetimes.
If I waste that 10% that you claim is minimal, I will have built 123.5 houses LESS in my lifetime due to foolishness.
That would equal 123.5 x $30,000 (that's what I can reasonably expect to gross each month).
The way I figure, your minimal suggestions will cost me $3,705,000!
And that doesn't include compound interest!
And some peaople don't believe the old adage "Figures don't lie, but liars can figure!
Blue
*Blue,As to what is my customer base, this last month: babies. I've had mor looney tunes show up out of the "blue" than in any other year. I hope they are all done calling me.You are right on about the thing a majigger. we also call it a stud finder, the electronic kind. I couldn't remodel without one.
*Rob, when they call, hang up!Blue
*Adrian,I do block the daylights out of the houses that I frame but that is primarily because I will also be doing the trim work and the cabinet installation. Generally speaking it's done with cutoff so there is no addition waste generated. As far as the plumber is concerned, I set up a time with him to go over his drops so that I put in a 2X6 interior partition and header off anything he needs ahead of time. This saves us both time, aggravation and money.
*Agreeing with Blue? Shoot me now, he makes sense sort of, maybe. My only disagreement is that if one wants to think ahead and be anal, installing all this blocking is great. As a remodeler, who doesn't install this type stuff when feasible, F--- you whiners who have to locate studs. I don't want to be harsh, but have you, that insist on blocking, bid on jobs? You don't figure the time for blocking and if you do, you'll be under bid. Please don't tell me that the time saved in cabinetry hanging will make up for this. You will, 99% of the time, bid cabinetry hanging thesame regardless of blocking. Maybe the really good remodeler will do this, (if he does the trim/cabinetry himself) but I doubt it as it is not that hard to find a stud per cabinet, and adjacent cabinets lend support. Ask your next client if they will pay for blocking so that other subs can have an easier time or if they want to up grade the new fridge to a bigger, better model, or they can have a lazy susan in the corner cabinet.
*J.D. I block and I bid jobs.Now don't get me wrong I do nothing for free so the blocking is included in the bid.It's just a matter of how I like to do things.I can understand Blue's position, he frames and does everything he can to move the process as quickly as posible. Blocking doesn't fit that mode.I don't get every job I bid (who does) but I get enough to keep me busy.I live in a rural area and sometimes the competition is anybody who's out of work and has a hammer.So yes I get under bid.My price doesn't change because of this.Vince
*JD, don't you just hate that, when you kinda, sorta hafta' agree with me? I get that same thing in other forums that I visit.It's one of the greater joys in my pathetic, boogerin' life.Remodelling is a much different slower paced process, and the money is different too. But it still wouldn't change the way I am. I wouldn't put a block in my own kitchen if I had it opened and was remodeling it unless there was a specific need.I'd also like to address all those who keep saying that all those blocks, are laying around and just going to be thrown out anyways! WRONG!!!If you are creating piles of 14" blocks or longer, you are not paying attention to your use of materials! By the time I get around to installing the last of the needed fireblocks, I'm cutting up valuable stock, sometime 16' linial! On thin jobs, I've resorted to nailing smaller blocks together to make a 14 1/2" fireblock! Nail guns are good for applications like that. Ok, Ok, sometimes I fireblock using that method because it is faster, and the blocks are readily available!Check you framing methods carefully, and you will be able to use all those blocks as you go, in your framing process! Anyways, about blocking needlessly; old habits die hard. Blue
*Good morning Blue,From the other perspective, all of our subs must include all blocking with their prices. Blocking is identified and required part of framing contracts with most GCs here.This way there is no confusion, it's up front and not up for discussion or omission.Different strokes for different locations.
*For the record, I make it 3 against, 10 for. Jack doesn't count, cause he's in his own little world with really BIG blocking. By the way, I do have a stud finder, and I can deal with most anything I find on site just fine.90%+ of the time there is no blocking, and I'm not crazy, who's gonna go into a finished wall to install, unless there is no other solution. But if I have my druthers, I like it. At the least, it eliminates unsightly screws angling in from cabinet corners, and if the cabinet installation is very rigid, the doors hold their gap tolerances better, resulting in fewer callbacks and happier customers. If you have a different opinion, okay, I guess I'm just a cringing, crying, whining baby bastards. No lobsters for you guys.
*JD,I only do remodeling, I bid on jobs and when I open a wall that I will hang cabinets on, I install blocking ( ok some times I cheat & run 1/2" ply instead of drywall. Just make sure it won't show beyond the cabinets). I don't open a wall specifiaclly to install blocking. Don't know any one that does.Blue, I usually do get rid of 'em. But the unfortunate reallity of working with an installed sales program (25-30 % of my business $ wise) is that some times you have to take a shitty job.
*b To all framers the framers out there If you sub from me please read section 4 of the contract that states: All framing includes blocking per plans set at elevation per drawings. Has anyone one ever heard "RETAINAGE"
*GolleeAm I ever glad I held my tongue on this one. . . I'd do just about anything for fresh lobsteri Sittin on the fence, I mean block, or is that a speed square???East Coaster a few generations back!!-Patrick
*Gabe and Bill, blocking is a required part of the framing crew's job in our neck of the woods, but it has to be specified in advance of our contract price being given or it becomes an extra. The plans or written specifications need to give exact heights and locations. Otherwise, guess who gets the sh*t when one of the blocks isn't in the right place! Of course, that's when an architect is involved... we like to make them work for their money. On the other hand, we design and build a lot of our stuff from start to finish, in which case we know right where we want any blocking. I can't believe the number of contractors who are constantly looking for a way to cut a few more corners and shave a few more dollars off the price (or pocket more profit?). I thought this was a FINE homebuilding forum! Why not just do a first class job in everything you do and charge a little more because you're better than the cheaper guys? You know the saying "fast, cheap or good, pick one".
*b RetainageAren't they that grunge rock band out of Seattle?There's a great little band out of Kingston, On. called Weeping Tile. . . how about Jack 'n the Rafters??. . . oh yeah they broke up, must've been framed by Blue and his ex-partner!!! LOLi You can stick 'Rap', but anything else goes!!!
*RossGet with the programme. For Blue and the boys FHb=Fine Homebashing. . . you gotta admit he is quite entertaining for a Booger-person!!! Just don't let him near your blocking!!!You're gonna be in for some serious i slapsat the 'Beer fest'i . . . from one 'blockhead' to another.-Patrick
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What may cost us time in one "crew" will save us time in the others. We have our own cabinet shop and cabinet and finsih crew. If they know that the blocking is in the walls for the uppers it will give them a little more freedom on design and placment. We do not block for lowers. With nailguns and a good saw person it does not take long to lay in blocking on a correctly built wall. Code around here requires blocking in some locations and for some wieght issues. The material cost is low because we will use old bracing materials or utility grade 2x4.I would bet on the average new house (kitchen and 2-1/2 baths) we spend less then $50 on materials and no more then 3 hours in labor. At that rate we are spending an extra $140. Like others I could add up all the time and material costs and probabally save a ton of money over all the years. However I probabally get a large portion of our jobs because we go the extra mile (or as jack said building bombshelters with popeye arms). Remodels are different and we will not open a wall to install blocking unless we are required by code. Another extra we will do is insulate channels or some plumbing before putting on sheeting that would make the area unaccessable.Sure that costs us money too. I guess a lot depends on location, who your target customer is and how long you plan to stay in your home town as a builder with a reputation for quality.
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Josh
Nicely put.
Ken
*Geez, you guys almost have me talked into blocking. I almost started feeling guilty, until...I've never seen a house with blocking in it!!!!No cabinet blocking, no t.p. blocking, and no curtain blocking!!Strange, I've never heard of cabinets flying off the wall either!I've also never heard a cabinet guy ask for the stuff!I guess, if you start in the trades not having it, you never learn to depend on it. Because it's not necessary! I just hope I never have to move outa MI! I'd probably starve!Blue
*Ah, yes Blue. This is why I agree with you. I wonder If my reply to your post on safety got posted. You are one framing devil.Dennis
*I have literally hung a ton of stuff using molly's. I agree with you. Blocking isn't worth the time involved execpt maybe in ADA handrails. And no, I have never had a molly fall out and belive me, I have hung commercial for myself and if anyone could routinly pull them out, it would have been the people who worked for me. Dennis
*Thought you were in California. I am with you. You can buy a hell of a lot of molly's for 100. Dennis
*Love molly's but what about the time installing them with cabinets? Better yet what about your contract stating that a framer install blocking? Do you skip the handrail blocking too? With the nail guns of today blocking is short sweet and to the point. I spent some time today looking back at cost's for blocking and found that I average about $60.00 for blocking in labor cost's. This $60.00 is off set my the time saved in installing kitchens and the other stuff that I need.On most goverment jobs blocking must be installed before closing up walls. This is enforced by controling money. Don't do the job you don't get paided.
*Good evening Gabe,Since blocking isn't up for discussion because it's on yur spec sheet, I wouldn't bid your jobs. That way, we'd both be happy!Blue
*Why not save the time and money and put it somwhere else?JD was right on, buy a nicer fridge!Ok, so a guy buys a ten million dollar house, he wants the best. Why not put the studs on 6" centers and then you won't need the blocks?Do you use titanum joist?Hypocrites! All of you!Except my other lazy brothers that don't kill owls either!Blue
*Josh, insulating a space that is inaccessible is sensible, and needed.You say that you add three hours. Don't you think that there is something wrong with exposing your workers to the uneccessary extra 3 hours of danger?ED NOTE: Blue seems to be crossposting. That comment belongs in the saw guard thread!I'd hate to cut my self, but I'd hate it a 1000 times worse if I was doing something that didn't have to be done!Blue
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I work for about 10 archtitects and GC's.
Blocking is ALWAYS part of my bid. All ceilings get blocked for the drywall. Fireblocks are code here. In $$ homes, where wide base or crown is being installed, the plans will show that, and I will block the bottom and top plates. Same for dining rooms where wainscotting may be present.
In baths, I rarely get plans detailed enough for towel racks, so I guess on those. The sink rough out is always shown, so we block for that as well.
I hope this helps.
*I must confess. I have done it both ways. For heavy loads I do block, but in the past this has often been with steel studs, so the nail gun is moot. Generally with cabinets, you only need one or two mollies per run, and you are right it does take time. I don't doubt that nailing the things is quick, but the most time consuming part is making sure you put them where they are suppose to go - and then remembering where some of them are. Whatever works. In my current project, one wall is steel and I didn't put blocking, so it will either be fine threaded screws, or mollies.Dennis
*You boys are absolutely rediculous, if not pushing into the ignorance catagory of residential contruction. In all my years of framing with my old man in northern New England I have never heard of a reputable framing crew that does not take into consideration the finish crew. But then again thats the ...... Well I hope I never have to look for work in other areas.
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When the national statistics come out and compare the cost of new house construction, very often the metro detroit area is shown to be very affordable.
We deliver a very good house at affordable prices. How? We eliminate all unneccessary stuff! Maybe it's our assembly line mentality (hey! Cadillacs are made on an assembly line too).
Think about it, if everytrade puts in 10% more than needed, how many people have you shut out of a home buying opportunity.
Don't try to tell me that the "quality" isn't there because I don't guess where towel bars might go!
The cabinets are firmly screwed into the studs! That is good enough! You are trying to tell me that if you screw it into some blocking, it's better. WRONG! I don't want to rely on nails that are exposed to shear. I want the longer lasting and stronger method of affixing the cabinets to the studs, regardless of how much blocking you do! BECAUSE IT"S STRONGER THAT WAY!
If there is a flaw, it is in the design, and manufacturing process of the cabinets! Don't believe me? Try overlaoding the cabinets to the point of them failing, falling off the wall, if they are properly fastened into the studs. At about the 2000# mark, the cabinet will rip off the wall, leaving the "nailing" flange still screwed to the wall!
So how does this blocking help? In some rare occasions a very small upper unit will not properly hit the studs on/near the end of a run. is this a major problem? NO, because the unit is very small, and will be carring a very small payload! Chop into the drywall, and put one in, if a molly won't support the unit. Usually the unit is supported by the other units, and a molly will usuall do the trick. You probably only need a block in .01% of the kitchens that are built. It hardly warrants killing 10,000 more treesper year, and 500 of theose spotted owls!
Block away, if you feel you must, but don't feel so smug because some regions don't. And don't think I'm goingto let y0ou screw into the blocking on my projects! Hit the studs, or hit the highway!
Here in MI, we're just trying to deliver affordable houses, And minimize the wasteful excesses that are rapidly exploiting our resources.
And we build million dollar homes without cabinet blocking, without incident.
Fireblocking: yes, drywall backing: yes, cabinet and curtain blocking: not in metro detroit.
Blue
*Blue, I've been mulling this stuff over today, and I've come to the conclusion that there's a place for high-speed, high-efficiency, cut all the corners, chain saw carpenters who never use a square and who shim the saw guard back to save another millisecond... it's really quite an art, if it's done right. And I must say I respect someone who can do this kind of work not so they can pocket more profit for a shoddy project, but to deliver reasonable quality at an affordable price! Anyways, just for the record, if you can do it right and fast and cheap, then all the more power to you. As for blocking, if the architect wants it then I'll put it in and charge for it, ultimately costing the customer more. And if I'm in charge of the design, I'll put in blocking wherever my own personal experience tells me it's going to be useful to me later. Sorry if I've been misreading all you super-high-production types, around this part of the country they're generally low-life know-nothings out to make the quickest buck possible, doing crappy work and giving us all a bad name. Now, being an artist at pumping out affordable housing in record time, that's something else. I still like my niche, but I'm not cheap. Listening, and sometimes learning....
*Adrian. Blocking? whats that? Currently I,m working in the southeastern region of U.S. and have found that if a subcontractor needs blocking of any sort he better go on the job site before they close the walls up, which is ussually within a day of drying in the structure( I have to be careful a lot of folks down here dont know what that means). I,m finding its a fast pace building field down here and if you dont tell the supervisor( when he's on the job site) that you need something it generally wont be there When I first starting learning the art of building a house, almost 20 years ago, thats all I seem to do was blocking while the house was drying in. Now these days it seems like when you need the blocking put in yourself, in the day that the house doesn't have all the drywall up and trim on. It seems that there are no subs, who have finished out a house after they get done "their job", and dont really know, or dont care what comes next. sorry I had to vent, frustrated in North Carolina. crawdad
*This is discussion relies on what is referred to as anecdotal evidence. If something happens in one instance, you extrapolate to all others. What is wrong with studs? If you only have two, let's be conservative, 4" number 12 screws, top and bottom of a cabinet, does anyone really think it will come off the wall? Nah. When you need one, a molly works great. How many of the backers are going to be cut tight? Not that many some will be loose and hang by the nails. More is not always better, sometimes it is just more. Yes, build well, but build efficiently. On the other hand, in area where there is repeated stress which tends to loosen things, block and screw.Dennis
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I worked for a contractor who even blocked for baseboard wanted to nail anywhere he pleased - talk about over kill - as far as blocking for cabinets - usually spend an hour blocking for uppers and if using crown i block in the corners of room
*i guess all these pine trees down here in the south have us thinking we need to use more lumber. But...everyone knows there is always a big pile of scrap 2x material on any job. We always save it for blocking. However I have never blocked for cabinets. They are always fastened directly to studs and cabinet man has a continuous plywood fastening "block" in the back of his cabinets. We always block for towel bars, toilet paper, etc. and write down the measurements. Then when we finish the house we dont have to hunt & peck to attach these items. Takes a little time to block but less time to hunt studs. Also we always block for crown molding as we always strip oour ceilings with 1x4's to level them. It may take 30 mins more a house to nail blocks between 1x4's but saves time trimming out. Besides we would only burn those scraps anyhow. Usually curtain blocking is put in to keep the "ole lady" happy. If she thinks you are doing something special for her she will spread the word that you are a good carpenter. (Remember....telephone, telegraph and tell-a-woman)....anyway hope this helps....
*
I always put in blocking. When things fall off the wall it always gets back to the framer. Besides, I've been at both ends. It's an easy way to use up scrap and when you point it out to the client you score points.
*Ross, you'd be surprised at how nice the houses look. All of the things that are absolutely necessary to make right, are made right. All of our exterior finish work is 99% perfect. If we ave some time in areas that allow for savings, we have the luxury of taking extra time, in the areas that warrant it.I discovered many years ago, that I could accurately cut a 2x6, and 2x4 without squaring. I probably could do a 2x8, but since I rarely use them, I don't have the confidence. I use my framing square for all 2x10's that need to be square.When I get to the beerfest, I'll bet all my milkbones that I can whack an 8/12, or a 12/12 by eye on the first try. I used to mark them all with a square, but found that they would sometimes not fit anyways. I had accurately marked it, and followed the line, but it din't fit. ??? Now, I just whack them, and they usually din't fit at about the same frequency. If I have to retrim it, I do.The house I just started is a 8/12 with an 11/12. After I make a cut or two (the 11/12 is an uncommon one for me), I will have the "feel". Try it, you'll be surprised at how easy it is. If I am cutting a bunch of the same commons, I will usually make a pattern. Of course, I'm going to use a framing square to make a pattern.YOur comments about the low lifes is a misperception. I've seen low lifes working very slow, and unproductive. I've seen highlives doing the same. You can't pigeonhole anyone! I have a very intelligent young crew. Really decent people. The first thing I did with the two rookies was to stop them from squaring 2x4's, and 2x6's up. I tell them it will take 100 cuts, and then you will get the knack. Of course the learning curve is much faster. We just passed a rough inspection, with a very tough inspector, with one minor problem regarding our stair treads. And there ain't a block on the job, except the draftstoppers.Blue
*Blue, I'm getting a new appreciation for getting the job done fast without compromising quality. I guess it's the next stage in my ongoing evolution, I can now cut a stud dead square anytime without a line, funny how little confidence we have in eyeballing the front of the saw plate parallel to the edge of the wood until we actually admit to ourselves it's okay to do it that way (worked fine for me today, you've got me converted). But I draw the line at shimming my saw guard, I like my fingers (geez, imagine the guy working in bare feet with a shimmed guard, I've had a stuck guard cause a saw to run across my boot before). You guys should get a Porter Cable sidewinder, the guard hardly ever causes a problem, and with something like plunge cuts it's a totally natural movement to hold the guard lever open with one hand and the trigger with the other.... I bet y'all's are using Milwaukee worm drives, the guards can be a pain on those. And blocking... well, it goes where it needs to go, or where someone with "authority" wants it to go, not where it's not going to do any good. For example, we're doing a reno today, and the architect "thinks" he might want a wide crown in one area, but he hasn't decided yet... the drywall is going up tomorrow regardless, so I ran two extra straps just in case, because crown doesn't go on too well with molys.... happy framing!
*X-nail crown all the time...no blocking.J
*Good for you Ross! I also use the front of the table to start my line, it's instinctive now, been doing it for 22 years!12 years ago, the dozer operator ran over my Milwaukee. The gc bought me a new porter cable to replace it. I couldn't cut a square stud to save my life! I truly struggled, and began to think that I was losing it. This went on for several months. Luckily I didn't have to use my saw that much (I was superintending a commercial "tenant renovation" job), but I finally discovered what was wrong. The table of the brand new porter cable was out of square with the blade, by 3/8"!!!!!I was hot! I've never forgiven PC since then (and because of a lot of other junk tools too)!Blue
*Don't you nail it into the studs?Blue
*Yes...where there is wood, nail wood....where drywall, x-nail (cross nail in same hole.)Works beautiful and allows for all the "blues" out there.J
*I understand. That's the way I was taught too!Blue
*That's because you and I are Boogerin Fools.Off to rest my snow legs....J
*Yes, x-nailing works fine lots of places, but 14" wide 2 piece crown doesn't hang off the ceiling quite so well without gaps when all it's nailed into is drywall...Why so wide, they all ask... well, the architect thinks this is a good way to hide a plumbing stack that has to follow a steel beam horizontally for a few feet... anyways, wasn't the point that blocking goes where it does some good, not where it's not needed?
*Let's get one thing straight, blocking is the definite best way to go, but, as Blue says, unless there is a specific need, no one will add blocking unless they are required to. As blue said, I probably wouldn't put it in my house unless the earth moved and I remembered. While a real boon for cabinet installers, almost no one supplies it.The closest I came was years ago when my commercial supply house sold me a 6" wide piece of sheet metal to attach to steel studs for future cabinetry work
*14" crown is a pretty obvious exception!!!!!Earth to Ross....you're "go to land" anytime...J
*A 14" wide crown falls into the "special need" category. I would think that the crown system would need some type of backing that nailed inside the drywall shell. Maybe a 1x4 nailed continuosly on the wall, with something slightly smaller on the ceiling. The 1x4, nailed over the drywall into the studs, would take 2.135 minutes, according to my Blue Light Special Time Estimator Calculator. Individual blocking would take 7.184 minutes, and twice the wood, and 17 times the nails! Maybe you want to buy one of my Blue Light Special Time Estimator Calculators to help you become thrifty too?Send a $67.32 in an envelope to my email addy, and I'll send you the priceless tool! Blue
*Anybody out there put up crown? For cabinets or just running trim, now there's a place where stuff WILL fly off the walls ( ok ceilings) without blocking. Of course, you could always molly it....just another blockhead,BB
*cross nailing w/ glue if scared...Nothing flying except my hang glider...J
*I agree jack, that careful nailing into the studs, with cross nailing into the ceiling (which probably won't have backing on two walls) will keep the stuff up t here ok.I still would think that a rough backer applied by the trimmer would be faster, and cheaper, and better.probably a well placed 2x2 would do the trick. Does anyone know what the inside dimensions of crown is (the space that is behind the crown)?Blue
*A piece of 3", 3/4 crown (a small to medium size), allows about an 1 1/4 triangular block behind it, obviously it would go up from there. I have never asked a framer to block in any way for crown; with double top plates, joists and straps, there is usually plenty of wood. If it is really complicated, I think the trim guy should make up his own blocking or for really big ones made up in parts, build it into the design of the moulding.
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How about a dab of construction adhesive? On the same thread, walked down my street in WI this week-end and looked thru the foyer of a new home. I would guess about twenty feet or more in height with big crown molding. I rethought some of my previous posts and came to conclusion that it depends on where you live. If I were in this type of house or building one, blocking might make more sense. Insead, this week-end while installing some track lighting, I used Mollys. Same with cabinets. Mine will be in the neighborhood of $120 per foot. If they were $200-$400 or so, blocking might be nice. We can build some beautiful things, but the more intricate the more time and money they take. Both of mine are limited so some times I just booger it.
Dennis
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Yeah, Adrian, that's my line of thinking. If there is some special trim that absolutely needs blocking, a detailed section view should be given with the plans.
Blue
*No Dennis, it's not a question of location, or cost. The "big Crown" mIght be better blocked by installing a 2x4 backer over the drywall. It' a question about quality!Blue
*Quality, well, I don't know anymore. I always thought I was pretty good compared to professional or amateur. But, I compared my doors to Joe's, and while mine are perfectly plumb and square, I noticed the reveal on the hinge side was narrower than that on the latch side. I had routed the hinges about 1/32 too deep on both the door and the jam. When I shim for a total of 1/16, I should be equal all the way around. It is the same when I look in some of the books from FHB. You guys are really good.Dennis
*Oh oh. Me and Blue agreeing on blocking, Jack feelin' groovy all over the place, must be spring.
*Gentlemen, have you put up much wide crown? Jack, if you're gonna contract and don't want call backs about the crown pulling the paper off the sheetrock on the ceiling, I'd pay blue the 100 bucks to put in blocks. Big crown cups, and cross nailing and gluing to the rock won't stop it, That's a cruel trim guys joke. It is much easier to put the blocking in from above ( before the 2nd floor decking goes on), than to run around the room later , with ladders and put it up, on top of the sheetrock. And, where a wall takes a jog and makes an outside corner...oh yeah, cross nails and glue. I agree with you in most cases that less is better, but not here.There is no one crown bed measurement, unfortunately. There seems to be two standard beds, but with cuppage, that gets pretty well blown too. I usually just stick a piece in a framing square and get close enough.Better yet, I've found a builder who hates crown looking for the blocking anyway, BB
*I don't do it, but for ease of nailing I have often thought of ripping 2x's at the right angle and nailing that to the top plates and then installing crown to that. You can get the measurements real easy with a framing square held to the crown moulding. I think that I would cut the backer so there is 1/4" between the backer and the moulding. Most crown is a 52/38 degree setup. Maybe I try it in my basement, steel studs, and report back. Using crown seems like it would save some drywall finish work in corners. Seems to me a simple taping wold be all that would be necessary.
*The beauty of that type of blocking is that it would apply quickly. Perfect fits on the joints wouldnt be necessary.Lets look at a 20 x 20 room. 80 lin feet = 60 blocks, if the framing was 16" oc. Since you would have to block both the ceiling, as well as the wall, to keep your "quality" up, that would mean that 120 bocks, 14 1/2" long would be needed! That's 145 linial feet of 2x4!!!!If you did the ripped backing, after drywall, you would need 40' of 2x4 ripped. HMMM????!!!! Let's see, 145 blocks, with 4 nails in each = 590 nails!If you ripped and backed, you'd need about 80 nails!I think I'd prefer the ripped method, especially if I was the builder, paying for the 2x4!I rest my case!Blue
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That's exactly how I do it. Most of my work is in remodeling so blocking is usually nonexistent anyway. I cut the blocking to 19" lengths so each piece covers 2 studs. Depending on stud layout, some pieces are cut to attatch to 3 studs. I hold it back a foot or so from inside and outside corners for tweakage. The corners are pretty much self-supporting. Nails into the outside corner stud keeps the crown from sagging. I also drive a nail through one of the pieces of crown in to the closest joist. The best part is that I charge for installing it.
Steve B
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You're readin' way too much into this. Blocking in the walls? Even a fancy lad trimmer can find a stud. Hell we can even find joists that run perpendicular to a wall. It's only where joists run parallel to walls that blocking's needed. And OUTSIDE corners.
I'm sure you put in nailers for sheetrock. Just pretend it's for rock, only out a little farther. It is definitly easier to put any blocking in with the framing than after it's been rocked. Man, trimmers are carpenters too, eh?
Guess I'm not the only blockhead, BB
*Billy, you gotta make up yore mind! Now you're saying that you don't need blocking?So your only problem area is on the partitions that are parallel, and you don't need blicking, you need a wider backing????!!!!Why didn't you say that instead of warning about paper ripping, etc.?I'm feeling better knowing that the crown is only falling off two of the four walls in all the rooms that I haven't provided wider backing.Blue
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There are some good points here but I have to add my two cent's worth. Blocking is great when the framers add it ,but not always necessary with one piece average size crown. I can add 1x2 or similar blocks every few feet to the top plates in a few minutes .There are always useable scraps around the miter box. On 5" or better crown or many layered moldings
however, the spaces can be odd to fill and much larger.How about base on the ceiling above the crown? We run this detail alot lately and blocking above would be a godsend. Please ,block ,bolck ,block.
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A simple question, posed from the viewpoint of a cabinetmaker.How often, in framing, or in remodeling, are you paid by the client (homeowner or contractor) to install 'niceties' like blocking for kitchen cabinets. Easy to do when the walls are open, yet I always have to ask for it and sell the homeowners on the advantages. Blue, you're doing $ homes, is this standard procedure or just a pain?same goes I imagine for framing that makes the plumbers job easier (how come there don't seem to be any plumbers here anyway?)
*Adrian,I actually use the niceties ( I only do remodeling) to help sell jobs & justify what I charge. So I would say on my jobs it is routine.
*Adrian,I do blocking in all the kitchens we frame automatically partly because alot of the time we'll install the cabinets also.But I'd do it anyway because it just makes a better job.As far as plumbers, can they read? Vince
*Adrian when we build a wall we install blocking for whatever that will go there. Of course 99.9% we're the guy's coming behind to do the finish stuff and knowing where all the blocking is helps. We have a framing check list that I do for large jobs and blocking is one of the things that is on it. We even install blocking for the toliet paper holders and other bath stuffb Feeling your pain about the missing blocking
*Adrian, I always install cabinet backing in the framing process, also try to crown the studs at the same time where the cabinets will go. But asas far as plumbers; the dumber the plumber the smarter the water.
*Plumber + Sawzall = major structural damage.
*You guys are to hard on the plumbers! They aren't here 'cause they're too busy chasing turds and running new cold water lines to the toilets (instead of hot). But seriously, I had a plumber friend do some work at my house and I only changed most of it. As to blocking, I prefer to install it as required in the course of framing. Provided I know where it goes and have the lumber.Tom