All ,
I’m a custom cabinet shop with about a 27 year run in the same little town , just completed a very nice Cherry kitchen for the best clients you could ask for .I have done somewhere over 150 kitchens locally , I’m not new .
This particular kitchen was very elegant with most every whistle and bell , all was well until the granite went in . They missed the main sink center by 1 7/8″ and missed a seam next to the cook top by an inch or so and set the prep sink like 1 1/2″ closer to front edge the main sink and the tip out tray will not fit now . The seams really showed a lot , they told the HO that particular type of stone the seams show more after they were in .
The overhang varied from 1″ to almost 1 1/2″ in one or two spots and was not real straight , there was a curved upper bar top that felt like a child did it .They talked the HO into accepting the job as is with no mention to fix things in any way . To me a real shortcoming was all the granite dust and mess they left over all the surfaces of drawer faces and other surfaces they didn’t even try and clean up .
The Granite folks were hired by the HO not me , the HO refuses to deal with confrontation of any degree and quickly paid them in full .I have seen many jobs from this shop and they were all great so this has me concerned , I want to approach the granite shop owner to make sure he even knew what happened and I am very curious whether he actually went to view the completed job or not . And if it meets his standards is this something he would accept in his own home ?
Would I be over stepping my boundaries by speaking my concerns , or is there a best way to do it ?
thanks for your thoughts
dusty
Replies
I think you should talk to the owner of the granite shop. The kitchen job could be great, but now the whole job is tainted by the bad granite jwork. It will reflect poorly on you and your work, even though it's was a separate contract.
Visitors and future prospects will be turned off by the poor workmanship, could end up costing you referrals by "association". Just my $.02
That's pretty much my feelings , I could say " go look at this kitchen , I had nothing to do with the granite "
For me the bottom line is , mistakes happen and one way to measure an individual is how they handle problems on the job . No one involved on the job would ever feel comfortable referring the granite shop again and they don't send me jobs so I have little to lose . On one hand if the tables were turned , as a business owner I think I'd want to know something may be wrong that I don't know about .If he blows it off like just a rough deal and that happens now and then , we will see his true colors .
I even thought they could be going out of business or he could have health problems or worse yet wife problems .
regards dusty
On one hand if the tables were turned , as a business owner I think I'd want to know something may be wrong that I don't know about .If he blows it off like just a rough deal and that happens now and then , we will see his true colors .
Absolutely. I'd be grateful if something like this happened, and someone brought it to my attention.
Just as your clients didn't want to deal with confronting the granite sub, some(alot) of people have no conflict resolution skills. They'll say everything's great, and then badmouth you(or all trades for that matter) behind your back for years. For this reason(among others), I go to great lengths to ensure customer satisfaction. I continually review every detail with clients, and if I detect the slightest hesitation in their responses, I'll dig deeper. I've even contacted a client long after completion because I heard they had an issue.
Tell him. If he doesn't care, it's his business -but you'll know to never recommend him again, and steer as many people as you can away from him.
I had a similar situation with my personal granite job on my own kitchen remodel, but not as bad as your situation. My granite installation was perfect, but I complained to the owner about the neatness and craftmanship of his crew. They left cig butts all over my driveway, soda and water bottles left where they ate lunch, granite shards and dust everywhere, in the drawers, on the floor and outside the house. They were a bunch of pigs installing a high end product inside someones home, a little respect and pride in your work seemed to be too much for these guys. I would come home from work and have to spend an hour cleaning up their mess, and I was paying them top dollar! The cement crew doing my driveway and walks were neater and cleaner than the guys working inside my home!
The owner was actually very grateful for the heads up on his crew and promised to take action. He sent us a nice flower arrangement as a token of appreciation, he didn't have to do that, but he knows his business runs on referals from satisfied customers and I had a legitmate beef.
Experienced, but still dangerous!
The dust and lack of concern to leave a clean job was bad , I was trained to never leave a job dirty , always clean up at the end of each session . These HOs told me I was the only one who ever clened up .Even if the work is so so if it's left clean there will be less to complain about.
dusty
I have done a lot of work where when I found that the owners or someone else was going to paint I would offer to. I usually do not paint but will do it to protect the overall look of the job. I explain to customer why the little things make a differnce. Many small flaws are not noticable on their own but collectively they give a "not quite right" look.
I have done a lot of work for churches and their parsonages. When the pastor offers to finish part or paint I tactfully recommend against it.
I think I would go to the owner and ask him to go look at it if he has not been there.
For those who have fought for it Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know.
Edited 12/3/2008 11:44 pm ET by rasconc
My take is that your bounds are limited by who paid the granite guy. If I was the granite man, while you were I would probably be thinking to myself "and who is this guy again? I've never worked with him".
The situation you have is one of the risks of not keeping control of the whole job. Especially with granite, there seem to be new shops popping up weekly with neon colored signs on the road side advertising their SF prices. If the HO made a bad decision, it's theirs to live with.
Are you primarily concerned about those who may see the kitchen and think that you messed it up, or about your inability to use this kitchen as a "showroom"?
I know it stinks, but I am inclined to say that's just the way it goes.
Jon Blakemore
RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Jon ,
I was hired as a sub to do cabinet work only , I had no opportunity or obligation to keep control of this job or the subs they hired unless they asked me for names as they did for the painter / finisher .
They had already seen the slabs and talked to the granite shop before they contacted me , my involvement came much later in the process then normal but lets face it who of us is in the position to turn down a good job ?
They asked me about the granite shop and I said they did a good job ,every job I have ever seen has been good , even though they are not the shop I would have used .
By not reworking the mistakes it reflects a lack of integrity which imho is un ethical when we are dealing with the high end products as in this case the folks are paying for top notch work .
The HO spent around $100,000 on a kitchen / laundry room redo , so what the main sink is off center by about 2" and the granite guys charged about $14,000 for screwed up tops . Your right it's just the way it goes .
I don't know about any of you guy's but 27 years in business for me did not happen from doing business like the granite shop has .
sorry for the rant
dusty
Maybe it's just me but I feel I have an "unwritten" obligation to the person I'm working with to let them know they have been screwed, sometimes people in general just don't "see it" as they don't have the knowledge. If your working in someone's home and you see someone working there stealing something "Say Something", in essence this was the same thing.
"Maybe it's just me but I feel I have an "unwritten" obligation to the person I'm working with to let them know they have been screwed, sometimes people in general just don't "see it" as they don't have the knowledge."Believe me, I have no problem speaking my mind (which probably explains why I post here) when it's called for. However, I try to be careful to not offer my opinion when my opinion was not requested.From what it sounds like to me, you feel that if a certain element is not up to your standards, then it will be a problem for the actual client.How do you know this?I don't think having a sink cut-out 2" off is good workmanship, not at all. But there are some people out there who won't be bothered by it. Isn't it their right to enjoy the product that they paid for without your "help"?"If your working in someone's home and you see someone working there stealing something "Say Something", in essence this was the same thing."I think you've made a pretty big leap to compare someone who is complicit to a crime with someone who lets some poor workmanship go. After all, we're talking about a countertop, not a felony.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I speak up all the time!!!! If I KNOW that something has not been done properly, I tell the guy doing the work or the client (home-owner). Get yourself a new man cause he's screwing you, weather he know's it or not. Just maybe the world would be a better place if more people did speak up (ie. Wash. DC would be a great place to start). What about the concrete testing co. from Ossining NY that was screwing with the PSI rate at the new Yankee Stadium and the new foundation at the new World Trade Center site. Someone should have blown the whistle. Let's say YOUR going in for surgery, wouldn't YOU want to know the surgeon YOU have chosen sucks. People in general can't be expected to know everything, and I help weather they ask for it or not, if I see them getting hurt. Nobody's kicked my #### yet...And by the way at the cost of that granite top, it would make it a felony., and that lack of quality WAS a crime in MY book.
Hey, if it works for you, I have no comlaints.I do think there's quite a distinction between the examples you mentioned and a sub-par granite job, but that's fine.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
What's the story on the concrete psi at the stadium?"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
A company from Ossining, NY, certified testers, in some cases didn't test the concrete at all, or lied about the concrete meeting the required psi rateing for the footings and foundation. The two most prominate sites were Yankee Stadium and the New World Trade Center site. The story was in the NY papers, and the local evening news.
Yeah , if it was $900 worth of laminate tops they may be expected to be less then perfect but for $14,000 one would think you get what you pay for . My point they charged the full price and not a discounted less quality sort of price . Maybe for $15,000 you get egg rolls too .
dusty
Two inches in that application may as well be two feet. Do you know if these tops were templated? Would seem they were not.
That part is really un acceptable to me as well , yes 2 fellows the head installer and his side kick came out and took several hours to make the templates.
The story they told was the fabricator in the shop used the wrong mark to center that main sink and it was the first time he ever missed , doh !
The backsplashes get tiled after the top is in so they had a good margin where the top did not have to touch the back walls , you would think this makes it easier not harder .
dusty
"They asked me about the granite shop and I said they did a good job ,every job I have ever seen has been good , even though they are not the shop I would have used ."
That gives you your answer right there.
You did not endorse them but in the client's mind they did not hear a negative comment either.
Approach the granite shop owner and explain about quality of the job, if they do not fix it you can in future dismiss them as hacks and definitely feel free to be negative about their work.
A bit painful maybe but a least you then have a clear conscience.
For myself I would want the opportunity to fix anything considered to be substandard .
sc ,
This is difficult but since they had already chosen slabs that from the source the designer recommended and seemed to love what they found , I had no reason to think the job would not be as good as any other job I've seen them do .That is why I offered no negative comment , I had none for real .
Another smaller shop in town is owned by a comrade and pretty good friend who sends me work now and then and that is who I do business with .
In this case as I said the HO refuses to complain or confront in general his wife told me he won't allow her to squawk about it , she's pod for sure and a realtor that knows everyone .
Perhaps if I talk to the granite shop owner and let him know up front the Ho does not expect or want them to come back and change anything and does not know I am talking to him but ask him if that meets his standards and did he see it or are his employees pulling the wool over his eyes .
" how good we are is how good we fix our mistakes "
regards dusty
Dusty,I just read through the thread again. I must admit that I'm having a slight change of heart.For some reason, in your original post I had the impression that you were looking for a combative approach, but I think now that I had the wrong impression.I would let him know of your observations, not as the representative of a dissatisfied customer, but as one business owner to another. Your tone and approach are important because you don't want him to think that you're complaining, just pointing out an issue to help him.I can tell from your responses that you already know the appropriate approach and aren't just looking for a reason to spread bad-will. Good luck.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I am glad to see you reconsider your POV. Would have hated to get into an argument:)
I am glad to. I would have hated to prove you wrong.:)
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Ooops!!
Looks like Pelipeth decided to argue for me :)
Thanks Jon .
I disagree, Jon,Telling the granite guy is doing him a favor, so there’s no problem there. Most of us would be grateful for a second chance that we wouldn’t otherwise have gotten.And oldusty has every right to safeguard his own reputation. He can’t erect an historical signpost to inform everyone of what happened on this spot!AitchKay
As far as the part about a sign telling who did what , I like that !
regards dusty
I would talk directly to the Granite shop owner, if its as bad as you indicate, he should take it out and redo his companys work. If he does not, bad mouth him at EVERY opportunity, as you may save someone else this nite-mare. It sounds as if this may be his standard.
I agree. I would tell the owner that the clients asked your opinion of his shop and you said they always did good work, but after this you can't say that anymore and he'd be wise to go take a look at the job.
Eldan ,
Very wise words indeed , that may be my best tack at this point.
thanks dusty
How well do you know the granite guy - or do you? Is he a "local"?
His work can easily reflect on you, even though you had nothing to do with the granite. The customers friends and aquaintences probably won't say anything, but they will have opinions about the overall job - and those opinions won't be in terms of the cabinet guy, the granite guy, the painter, etc, etc.
I think that I would definitely have a quiet and private chat with him and keep it as non-confrontational as possible. Express your concerns as questions (i.e. "I was surprised by these things and would like to avoid them if we ever work on the same job in the future."), and see what he has to say. There may be good reasons - or the guy may be a hack.
Dave ,
Interesting enough this is the oldest and largest Granite shop in the area and the jobs I have seen have always been fine .
He is a local and knows me when he sees me although we have not worked directly together he has done maybe a dozen kitchens I have been involved with, without problems.
The owner is not A hack but his crew sure is working like hacks and I am not sure he knows about it , even the lady who answers the phone seemed to be protecting the owner from the truth .
regards dusty
Dusty -Then, I would definitely have that quiet chat with him. You can't really lose. If he knows, but doesn't care, you did what you could. If he doesn't know, he may appreciate your input.
I'd write a letter to the owner of the granite shop, explain your concerns and tell him you'd like him to look at the job. Give him the same details you included in your post and copy the HO.
I'd certainly make a friendly call to the owner of the counter top company. "I thought I should tell you that there are several errors on this job which don't reflect well on my work or yours."
Just passing on your observations and concerns, nothing more. If he gets defensive or offensive, remain cool, repeating that you're just bringing the matter to his attention.
That way, you've spoken up for your own interests and, if he shares your values, for his. You'll feel much better about it too.
If the sink is now off center by almost two inches, that should stick out like a sore thumb. Are there upper cabinets that now look out of place because of that?
The homeowner needs to speak up.
PM ,
This particular space has a 6' bay window at counter ht , the sink was always in the center of that window ,period . The run was 198" long,The sink was a single deep but 30" X 21 " X like 10 1/2" deep , I recessed the doors under the sink and gave the cabinet a little extra width then what a normal size sink would need .
The wall cabinets start about 6" from the edge of the window opening , so they were out of the picture a tad .
The granite shot out into the bay , they were screwed . the HO decided they liked the look of the faucet in the corner instead of centered , so that's where they put it . Lucky for the granite people that I made the cabinet wider then the 33" the designer plan called for .
The real problem is not whether it actually looks o.k. but it was wrong and so was the rest of the scenario . The HO, some of the best clients ever he refuses to complain and probably could get mad at me for doing so , but he wouldn't let me know .
regards dusty
Send the shop's owner some photos.
Maybe he subbed the job out or used a new crew for some reason. I think you should let him know and he should be grateful. He is most likely unaware unless he checks each job after completion.John
in the old days I saw him out checking jobs at final time .
It was his crew, but they were not the same crew as always , as things go .
thanks dusty
I was once in the situation of following behind a poor tradesman, from a shop that usually did good work.
I called the shop, and spoke to the owner. I explained that I knew the work was not up to his usual high standards, and thought he might want to look it over before I fixed anything. He came out - we met then for the first time - and quickly agreed that I was right to call him.
I am certain that there was a follow-up discussion with his employee.
I later learned that, unknown to me, there had been a problem at that shop. The owner had brought in a management team to help run his growing company ... and the management team had gone about destroying a good, established business. I had called the owner just as he was returning to take control back of his business.
Final result: Firm pulled out of the 'nose-dive,' both bad managers and unqualified employees got to find new work.
Some of the marginal folks got enrolled in an apprentice program. It seems that the managers had been hiring 'technicians' rather than true 'journeymen.' (Among other things).
So, yes, call the guy. Speak to him in a friendly, non-confrontational way. Ask him to come and see for himself. If he's any good, he will ... and a different crew will come make it right.
I'm with most other posters in that you owe a call to the owner. Can't hurt.
To everyone else, on the subject of leaving a mess, I just finished building my own house and I was amazed at the number of subs who "threw the baby out with the bathwater" so to speak. No thinking of the big picture.
Examples:
-The tile guy, while mixing his stuff outside, leaves a trail of droppings going up the stairs.
-The Corian guy dinging up some cabinets during countertop installation.
-The drywall guy having a bag of Doritos for lunch and then proceeding to open the prepainted white wood windows with his Dorito crumbed hands
-The HVAC guy, while doing a great job of installing the cooktop downdraft vent in the crawl, leaving insulation and netting all over the crawlspace floor.
-The plumber, while doing the rough-in, leaving tobacco chewing deposits in the house
Most of the stuff got fixed (Examples: Hired a furniture finish repair guy and back charged the counter guy the amount. Didn't pay the HVAC final draw until the insulation was reinstalled, etc) but collateral damage was a big concern.
Runnerguy
I'd be on the phone right away. Seriously, how dare they put that trash on your custom cabinets.
I've gone back to vendors in the past that HO's have hired and told them of their shortcomings. Most of the time the company was glad to hear about the problem.
Whether the top stay or goes is out of your hands but i'd let them know about it.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
I'd talk to the granite company owner. I'd bite my tongue and not say a word to the home owners. No good can come from that.
But talking to the granite company owner, maybe he's a stand up guy and a job got away from his crew and he'd like the info plus and chance to fix it, so it's a win/win for all involved. win / win / win actually, him, the customer and you know you can trust their work.
And if he's doesn't seem to care, I'd leave it at that knowing who not to recommend in the future. At least a win for me next time. I wouldn't call and try to fight with the guy, I'd just mention what I saw and check his reaction.Vic
I would probably let the company owner know that the workmanship was shoddy, but there's no WAY I'd tell the HO. If they specifically asked me I might point out a couple areas I thought could be better...or I might not. Nothing to be gained, except a boost to your ego, and hard feelings all around.
The HO knew what was wrong before I saw it in , the HO will not care anymore about it, it's me and us that know what they did was wrong .
They did not notice the discrepancies in the overhangs as I did , heck water could roll off the top and down the drawer and door faces with the slight overhang they provided .
dusty
All ,
I stopped by the granite shop unannounced and went to the shop entrance walked through just to see if they were working on any slabs and I really did not see slabs everywhere or in progress , I did see templates laying around though .
The main template maker recognized me and said this is the guy you want to beat up right here , pointing to the in shop fabricator guy , I said I didn't want to beat him up but asked if the boss was up front .They told me he was out this afternoon he had some personal business to take care of .
I am going to stop by again this time in the office or front door and I feel it would be best to meet face to face with the owner and calmly discuss my concerns with him . I get the feeling they are going out of business or something is wrong not sure but hope to at least bring closure to this chapter.
The owner has always been a soft speaking gentleman and I have no reason to believe he would be any different now .
If the tops stay as is which I believe they will , they will always read wrong and the poor taste of the granite shop will stay in the mouths of all involved .
Thank you to everyone for chiming in your opinions
I will post after speaking to the owner and let you know how it went
regards dusty
That's right, don't leave a message, just talk to him when you can.You're not doing this in anger/with an attitude. You've already counted to ten and taken a deep breath. You've even done a reality check with all of us.So you're doing the right thing. Good Luck.AitchKay
You've even done a reality check with all of us.
Now there's an oxymoron."Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Well, OK, he asked us for our opinions.Reality? ...I guess it's whatever you fantasize it to be!Aitchkay
AK , Your right I need to talk to the gentleman , I will be business like as always but to the core of the concerns .
I really do feel like the lady in the office was trying to patch things up so she didn't have to bring the owner in on it , the whole deal is out of character for this shop and keeps giving me that sick feeling in your stomach and a general pain when something don't feel quite right .
as far as the reality check with all of you folks goes ,,,,,
advice is usually worth the price you pay for it , but in this case I feel I got my moneys worth and we seem to be mostly like minded on this subject , that won't happen often over at the Knots forum .
regards dusty
To All ,
Well after 3 tries I finally met up with the granite shop owner this a.m. . He recognized me and greeted me , I asked if I could have a few minutes of his for a private conversation ,, he said sure come on in my office and shut the door .
I pretty much got to the point mentioned the HOs last name and he recollected the job and knew the main sink was off but by placing the faucet in the corner the big single size looked decent " it did " .
I asked if he went to see the job ,,he said no he did not .I asked if he heard of any thing else wrong , he said no . I assured him I was not here on a confrontational purpose and I hated to have to say the things I was going to say , he said he needs to hear whatever it is .
I filled him in on all the problems and missed seams and general lack of craftsmanship ,and the BIG MESS they kindly left , he said they were trained to clean up .
He did not know the HOs were unhappy I told him they would not complain but it will always be wrong.He said I will pull it out and replace the job or give them their money back .I told him fat chance of them wanting to rip their house up again after 6 months of remodeling .And they would not want me to complain but I felt if it was me I would want someone to give me a heads up .
He was truly thankful to me and said he owes me more then he could say , I said I hope you would do the same for me . I asked if his office lady gave him the message that I called and wanted him to call me back , he said he never got the message , I said his lady was micromanaging his business and dissed me in the same moment and that I felt his crew was covering up for the mistakes the fabricator made in the shop and pulling the wool over his head .
He said he has made the mistake of delegating too much that he himself should be doing and said things will be changing and again thanked me for coming in and informing him.
thanks to all you for your 2 cents
regards from Oregon dusty
Sounds like a good resolution for you and an eye opener for him.
Glad it went well. and that he sounds like a man of his word. Let ys kow if anything happens on the customer end of the story.
Well done. It sounds like you both would be good to work with.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Well done Dusty!
Buy yerself a round on me, for doing the right thing.
Overall I'd say you handled this well. But I think you went a bit overboard when you told him: "I said his lady was micromanaging his business and dissed me in the same moment and that I felt his crew was covering up for the mistakes the fabricator made in the shop and pulling the wool over his head ."What you said about the lady and his shop people is pure conjecture on your part. The statement sets him up to look foolish. After all, he didn't see what was happening right under his nose... not a point of pride for any business man. Better for you, an outsider, to simply tell him what he couldn't know. You could have said to him, "I tried to contact you the other day. Perhaps you didn't get the message from your office staff?" Let him draw the conclusion that his lady is being a micromanager. Likewise regarding the shop help. You gave him enough info to let him know things are shaky in his shop. Let him root out and identify the problems.Then again.... I don't really know. I'm terrible when it comes to dealing with things of this nature. That's why I work for and by myself.
sapwood ,
He mentioned in our conversation where the problem was , and went in to some detail telling about anger management issues the fabricator has and that almost each day he has a "melt down" they have to walk on egg shells with this guy in the shop .
You are probably right I shouldn't have complained about office lady but I got wound up a bit and had the feeling he would of called me had he ever got a message to and if he called me back that morning he would of then , known the disposition of this particular job .
I am totally convincinced if the owner was present at install it would have never been installed .
At that point we could have made a POA ,I could have modified or re built the base as needed , for a price of course but I was willing to be part of the solution , but his crew had other ideas of customer satisfaction and craftsmanship then we may share so for that his office person was in fact the person who could have been instrumental in a solution as opposed to a smoke screen . sorry for the rant .
regards dusty
Dusty,
I would definitely speak to the shop owner about the quality of the work on your project. He or she may have new installers or, due to an overwhelming work load, had to sub this one out. Either way, I think a responsible owner would want to know when their company's work is sub-standard, especially if they're not doing progress or final inspections on projects.
I went from total control of projects to control over cabinetry only, so I know what it's like to feel powerless when the HO's supplier messes up a good job. However, if I knew the usual quality of that firm's work and found something that fell way below it, I'd contact the owner with a head's up.