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Adrian,
” John Ruskin (England, 1819-1900) crusaded for hand labor as an essential human right that preserved dignity and inventiveness in society. He suggested that the designer and craftsman should be reunited in a single individual, that “the workman ought often to be thinking, and the thinker often to be working”
The above is taken from VIRTUE IN DESIGN by Leslie Green Bowman.
We believe this and try to apply it to our work.
A savvy client usually picks up on this and takes good advantage of our input.
We also tend to actually listen to what the client has to say and respect their input more than other design ‘professionals’
By letting our past projects speak for our aesthetic talent, the design-build approach, or at least contractor involvment in the design process becomes a real possibility.
Of course that’s just my opinion,
I could be wrong
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The person designing the project should be the one who will have to live in it. It is our responsibility to give the owner the tools of design so they can come up with what THEY want , not what somebody tells them they want.
I have used simple models as a tool. The customer agrres to pay for the model. I build it, and show them how to use it / modify it.
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Adrian,
I use something very similar to your idea but don't credit the whole thing if it does not get built (ever or by me). And that is, a credit of 50% of the design fee towards the job if I build it - so I always get something for that work. Also, I use a flat hourly fee during design phase which includes: research, drawings/changes, paint schemes, calls, meetings, etc.
If the client is paying by the hour, the meetings always seem a bit more efficient.
I used to make working drawings from the Designers plans (and provided necessary details, electrical, lighting, etc., for free) usually as I was doing each part of the job. Now the working plans are done prior to start of job which gives everyone a bit more time to head off any conflicts.
To Creative Builder: Models sound great. How do you make these?
*It's definitely a mistake to give away your design work, if you want to let a client look at it fine, but don't let them go off with it! Jim Tolpin wrote about this in one of his columns when he wrote for Woodshop News several years ago, somebody should get him over here and give us his idea on this thing, for free.
*AdrianIf you're using a system that gets you paid for design whether or not you get the job, then I've got something to learn from you! Where I always get caught is in that i grey areabetween what could be expected to be part of a 'free estimate' and what is getting into 'design consultation'. . . and I always take a financial hit when I don't get those ones. . . I'm loathe to i ballparkthings so I do drawings ( which I keep) and brainstorm, and invest time!!!
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Okay, this got me going. I want to see if you folks have the same reaction. the quote is from "Canadian House and Home' magasine (pretty high end, if you don't know it), Feb.March 1999. Interview with father/daughter, architect/designer about the process.Question: How do architects and designers work together?
Her answer: "It works when you have a mutual respect for what the other person can bring to the project. It is important, though, for clients to really understand what they want. The architect and the designer need to interpret those desires.And if it's not clear, you can believe that everyone will be putting their two cents in-I'VE EVEN SEEN A CONTRACTOR ADD AN OPINION ABOUT PAINT COLOUR. I can't stress enough how important collaboration and communication are." The caps are mine, cause i don't know how to italicise here.
I think there is a lot in this statement about attitudes I encounter often, and it was brought to mind by Miss Rookie saying she was off to design school after getting through one project (and please don't take me wrong, Miss Rookie, the fact that you are here soliciting and following constructive advice speaks worlds for you. If you can keep that approach, it will go a long way with the folks you will be working with). Anyway, this is what i get out of the designers statement 1) clients don't know what they want until I tell them 2)the only opinions that count are those of the 'professionals' 3)the crafts are to be seen and not heard My response to this is: bullshit. The good architects and designers I have worked with are ALWAYS open to a better idea, and have a healthy respect for opinions based on many years of practical experience and will even admit it is possible for a tradesman to have design credentials. I am often in the position of being the designer and the manufacturer, and coordinating and making suggestions about how other elements in the project will work together. I see the whole process as being a collaboration including the client, all the trades, and the design pros if any. I recently had an experience with a designer. I designed a kitchen for some clients putting on an addition. I showed up for a meeting, and they presented me with a alternate design, provided by a designer they had had in to consult about colours. Apparently, this designer had told them our working plan wasn't very good, and ahd sketched this one. i wasn't wedded to the original, which was just a refinement of the clients original ideas, doing the best we could in a very limited space (we eventually changed everything around, and much improved on the whole situation). But her design, as I pointed out,was impossible. She had drawn cabinets that couldn't be built, appliances in places they couldn't fit, etc. etc. No skin off my nose, if thats what they wanted though, thats what i would build. No, they said, we agree with you, just wanted to hear your opinion. next week in the local paper, in one of these "advice from local experts" spots, is this designer going on about how cabinetmakers may be competent craftsmen, but all design work should be left to the 'pros'. As a footnote, when i got done with this project, the homeowner called me up in tears to say how much she loved her new kitchen.
This probably counts as another novel, but does anyone else run into this attitude a lot, that our ideas and experience is worth less than the design pros, or that we are not 'professionals' because we work with our hands as well as our brains? Thank you for tolerating this rant. Have a pleasant weekend.
*Sean!!!Start a folder for "Extreme Posting, You're forwarned!!"JSo much for Joe's limit advice...Get the Attack Dogs and flame throwers!!!
*Adrian,Long posts especially suck if your whining????...Read your post again in "others eyes..are you???The edit key is still there for a few more minutes and then it's forever!!
*No buddy, I'll let it stand, and take the flames. If it sounds like I'm whining, blame it on my writing skills. If it doesn't relate to your business, I'm not forcing you to read it.
*I take a different approach...All people think they are the key to everything they do...Fine...I don't give it a second thought anymore except to use it to my advantage, and my advantage always means let them think it's there advantage to(o). Once you understand this, you'll lose your stated beliefs in a hurry and spend more time enjoying what little time you have on this planet....Maybe?Jb Situational existence being applied here, so catch me doing the opposite as I do often...It's the thought that counts, right...
*Design is a process that isn't complete just because the pencil is taken off the paper and the eraser is put away. It continues through both the construction process (change orders) and even after the project is completed (remodeling).I have zero problems with anyone giving input to the design process. There are quite a few pairs of eyeballs out there that have seen things in the trades that I'll never see. Tradesmen keep in business by changing what doesn't work for someone into what hopefully will. They've truly seen the good, bad and ugly. I'd like to think they have at least a few good, practical ideas.I try not to inhibit others from offering ideas. I'll accept ideas. I don't neccessarily put them to use, but it's nice to get the think tank thinking and cull the best from the offerings. Take what new ideas the homeowner brings to you (from whatever source), and either explain why your existing plan is better, or incorporate the "new" idea into the plan. If they want it badly enough, they'll cough up the cash for the change.Design concepts and practical application are often two totally separate fields. Architects and designers put "unbuildable" drawings on paper, and clothing designers put ridiculous looking rags on runway models. <I>Italics</I>
*AdrianSome people will forever be impressed by i pieces of paper( degrees/ assoc. etc) that others can flount, and will never be impressed by i meretradesmen. In my experience the ones who are most impressed by what we might derisively call i so called expertsare those that have the kind of make believe job where there presence would not be missed if the suddenly stopped showing up for work(?). They're just i keeping the lies alive,have pity on 'em.b Never met a designer I coudn't learn to deride-Patrick p.s. for simple formatting read theb Message Formattinginstructions above the message posting box,i it's dead simple!!
*Rant away, Adrian, as one long winded blow hard to another, I enjoyed your story!I don't think any designer should take any input from rough framers (especially them hacks from MI)!Every atom of my being is geared to make my job easier, so if I'm gonna bothr to listen in when the honchos are huddling with the homeowner, I'm only there to make my job easier! And you wouldn't belive the BS I can expound on! ED NOTE: YES WE DO BLUE, WERE SEEING YOUR TRUE COLORS ALL OVER THIS SITE!The funny thing is, the superintendents love me!Blue
*Good post Adrian. Nope, you're not the only one. Every project I work on that has a Designer onboard is already headed for ruin. You can thank the tradesmen for wrestling the project from the murderous "skills" of the designer.What makes this so damn funny, is that I live within 45 minutes on one of the premier arch/design schools in the nation. These people come out of there thinking the have all the answers--told to them by their profs who have never left academia.I'm sure there are some good ones, just haven't seen them. It's the attitude, stupid.
*Gonna have to one up you. I design woodwork details for a living and install the odd tricky project. People pay me very well for it. I'm not a qualified designer or architect. I work with a couple of architects and designer who are self confident enough to deal with someone specializing in something they really don't enjoy doing so much because of typically being told "Thats Impossible". Every once in a while I run across a real Gem. She had photocopied a sketch of a "trompe l'oeil panel",(which is like a three D eye trick), out of an austrian book. I'm pretty sure the copyright was below the picture. The sketch was rough. I spent the necessary 5 hours on the computer laying out the 10 eliptical curves so that I could do the laminations. Just to make sure that she liked the changes I had made I faxed it to her. She actually had the nads to inform me,(registered mail), that she had the rights to the drawing and if I ever reproduced it that she would take me to court. I had to laugh out loud. And still do whenever I look at the drawing with the copyright symbol followed by my name right in the middle of the drawing.(her eyesight isn't sufficient to read it) I tried to post the drawing but ACAD wouldn't let me do it. MOST DESIGNERS WOULDN'T EVEN THINK ABOUT THIS BLATENT DISREGARD OF COPYRIGHT LAW!Most designers are ethical, and architects actually have a code of ethics. (Sorry about the book)
*Adrian, " John Ruskin (England, 1819-1900) crusaded for hand labor as an essential human right that preserved dignity and inventiveness in society. He suggested that the designer and craftsman should be reunited in a single individual, that "the workman ought often to be thinking, and the thinker often to be working" The above is taken from VIRTUE IN DESIGN by Leslie Green Bowman. We believe this and try to apply it to our work.A savvy client usually picks up on this and takes good advantage of our input. We also tend to actually listen to what the client has to say and respect their input more than other design 'professionals' By letting our past projects speak for our aesthetic talent, the design-build approach, or at least contractor involvment in the design process becomes a real possibility. Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong
*Steve,You stole my favorite saying of late though I reserve use of it to when people are really within "slap" distance...b Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong..J
*As my humble grandfather was offen herd to say;b Common sense is nothing more genius in it working clothes
*b Common sense has nothing more genius in it than working clothes?
*Its a nice saying Bill, did your granpa stutter?Blue
*Ah yes, the old grandfather herd. Know it well, we never shot the slow ones, just the fastest ones.That way as we got older and slower on the draw, we will still get our bag limit.
*I'm kinda amazed how many attitudes Adrian can ferret out of a simple statement about a contractor having an opinion about color. From this he concludes that the designer has no respect for craftsmen. Seems to me that, in the context, the designer was saying fairly clearly that unless the owners had their shit together, first the architect, then the designer, then the contractor, then the homeless guy on the sidewalk were going to have an opinion on everything from the color of the house to the placement of the bidet. I read her as saying: we work for the owner, but the owner has to have done some homework before coming to us.The rest of the rant seems to be based on some unpleasant personal experiences. All of us who work with our hands have encountered the arrogance of recent college graduates, and/or jerks with more money than humanity, but I don't see the evidence that the Canadian Designer was one of them.Jim
*Well Jim, it is entirely possible I misread her. But if you read the rest of the interview, I don't think so. I showed it to a couple of other guys, let them make up their own minds, and they had the same reaction.I don't mean to paint all designers with the same brush, there are some excellent ones, but I have also met some doozies.On a related matter, someone e-mailed some comments to me and pointed out that tradesmen are sometimes guilty of the same arrogance towards DIY'ers that I am complaining about in some design pros attitudes to the trades, so maybe everyone could stand to watch their step a bit.
*. . . especially if Blue is lurking around the stairwell with a sheet of styro. in his hands!!!
*Adrian,Bottom line here is that you can't derive your own self worth from what some design Professional has to say about us. I've worked with some real boobs over the years but I've also worked with some true professionals. I have one designer that I work with that calls on me to check her designs to make sure that she isn't planning on moving any load bearing walls, without future concern for support. Her designs aren't always perfect but she does have some great ideas. Don't let the Buttheads get you down.
*I won't be able to produce as long a post as some of you people are doing, but here's my story: I once went with the designer to the client's home to discuss the project and it turned into a verbal battle between these two women, with me in between, ending up with the two of them in tears. The designer won and a year later the client had everything torn out and done her way.I can't believe some of you are turning over your designs for free! Is your business legally registered as "non-profit"? If you're going to give away your designs like that, send me some!Adrian: I was about to place my order for the General table saw but didn't pending some other options which ended up with me getting the Unisaw at a good price (free tenoning jig) locally, with some other bennies involved. I did see a General for the first time however and was impressed, particularly with the iron underneath.
*You can't turn down a good deal, Richard. Enjoy the new saw. re: design. I find this is the hardest thing to get paid for, especially in an area where it is "I'll beat your lowest price". I am instituting a new design fee policy, credited to the job if I build it.
*Adriani "I am instituting a new design fee policy, credited to the job if I build it." That's the problem though isn't it, you have to eat all the one's that you don't get. What really burns me are the one's that go through multiple changes/re-draws only to get cancelled/put on hold etc., or otherwise i fly awayand I end up kicking myself, yet again, for not stating up front that job, or no job, designing will cost. . . having not done so at the beginning because I figured it would scare off the customer.Whaddafrigginratrace!!!The General sure is anice saw says he who bought an old Unisaw.
*Patrick, if you or anyone else has a surefire way to do it, I am all ears.It is credited to the job if I get it (and the quoted price includes something for this work anyway), and if I don't get it, i am still paid a fee. In theory. I am trying to set it up so I get paid something for the design work even if i don't get the job, and sort of prequalify the customer. If they are just looking for ideas, drawings and problem solving, just to take it down the road and have the other guy build it when he gets home from his day job, no thanks.I am sort of resigned to doing a certain amount of unpaid work; but those drawings and estimates and stuff stay in my files to hopefully cut down the time on the next similar job.I feel a migraine coming on...