a weekago last friday I called to have my elevator serviced… I figured a nomal service call 3-5 hrs @ $275 an hour… (if you have kids and they are looking for a job path)
I get a call late that afternoon… “I have a proposal written up on your elevator” hmmm this doesn’t sound too good….
proposal goes like this,
Your valve is bad and….we can have a new valve made for your unit since they are no longer made and they were never really good valves anyway for 7k plus $1200 for on site engineering and we can get that done for you in about 4-6 weeks… or we can put a rush on it and get it done in 48hrs for 4k more… but we can’t really stand behind these options without replacing your pump which will run you 14k… this thing as it is… is really dangerous and someone could get hurt.. so which of these options would you like…
I’m like now this is a really low use elevator and it was working fine did something in the pump or valve break? Did your guy know there was a rebuild kit for the valves in the mechanical room? at which point I’m talked to like I’m a fool and even if they did explain it to me which would be a waste I’d never understand…
This is a really simple older system not alot unlike a hyd lift that you’d find at any garage… it has been all but trouble free except for normal small stuff for all of it’s 40years… I’ve serviced it enough that i’m not scared of it… fuses, relays… ect..
so based on what they told me… I’m like… at least I’m going to find out what broke or whats worn out…… so last monday I pull the up side valve, drain & clean the hyd tank… take the valve home ( i have all the original shop specs & drawings that came with the install in 1966 plus all service records ect…) clear off my best 3 x 8ft steel bench put down my 1/4 cork mat that covers my bench… and one screw… nut… set screw… spring…ect… take this baby apart… it looks like new & clean inside (as did the 100gal hyd tank) i see no wear no crud… no metal fileings ect… it always had a few drips so i replaced all gaskets & O rings & seals from the kit that was there… cleaned everything and reset every set screw and valve to exactly where it was….
tues I put it back on… removed the down side valve.. tues nite rebuilt it same way at home… wed reinstalled it and went down a check list a guy from the net had sent me…. had some adjustments to make a few things to realign some things to lube ect… i just wanted to go over everything so i’d know i wasn’t missing anything took me til friday to get everything back together refilled the hyd tanks… and I got her running… i wasn’t stop’n on the floor right… over shoot’n under shoot’n stall’n ect… I just didn’t have a real grasp on all the adjustments
basicly it’s like a hyd door closer… you have the high speed that closes the door then the low speed that pulls it tight and keeps it from slam’n, same thing here… on the up side you have high speed… you adjust how fast she starts how fast she runs then you have the low speed that slows you to the floor and the “pump coast” that takes you right to the floor which you also have a leveling valve for…. on the down side you are just letting the fluid out in a controlled fashion… but the same deal… slow start down… then fast… then slow to the stop… if every pipe burst and every seal failed this thing couldn’t fall fast enough for you to spill your coffee….
I skipped work’n on it Sat… i just had brain fade and my 2yo wanted to hang with me so we went junk’n… I’d read and studied and thought about everything that i just outlined above and on Sunday… I put all the adjustments at where i felt it’d work but not tuned to each floor… and right out of the box… all my down adjustments are dead on… in the next 3 hrs I learned that for every action there is a reaction… on the up side valve every adjustment affects every other adjustment even locking the jam nuts affects something… but I got it… it’s as smooth as it’s ever been… faster up than it’s ever been (long a source of complaints) and me… I’m proud… I’m proud that I took the time never got upset stopped read , reread, mapped every adjustment i made with the results… and proud that i learned alot… this thing has 40-50 relays and switches all 1966 state of the art stuff… that i now have a good idea what each does in relation to the other… that I now understand these valves and their effect on each other and that my valves nor my pump is now or was ever bad… I did nothing in removing them other than to replace gaskets and seals none of which affected how they operated just fixed a few pesky drips…
there was nothing ever wrong other than the tech they sent out moved the valve setting and didn’t know how to get them back in sync… I have no idea if he was checked behind… but given the talk’n down i got when i ask… and then try’n to instill fear into me about what could happen… my guess is this was all about billing the most $$ they thought they could and assume’n no one would go behind them to check to see if what they said was so… this thing is pretty simple and basic mechanical parts… if it’d been all computer controlled they’d have had me… but as long as it’s in the distributor/carb world…
anyway… thats my story for last week took all week…
but my plumber was on my loft project all week and i had him keep’n my labor guys busy blocking pipes and drilling holes and cleaning…. so i lost a week on that project but @ 20k saved… not too bad
p
just another reason to hate service people who think they have you by the bolts…
Replies
I love that story PonyT! You are da man!
I'd sell before I'd crack that book.
blue
Great story!
Is this the same place that your rebuilding and turning into condo's?
I know a great plumber and elec. if you ever need one.
I'm in memphis also.
Butch... I do need an electrican... my guy is a one man band... I have all the permits and most material on site.. but it's getting the point where he will slow me down
let me know I could use the help
thanks
p
if you are ever near downtown I'm @497 front just north of auction... I'll give you the 10cent tour
<I do need an electrican... my guy is a one man band>This elec. is also a one man band, so if your still interestedlet me know, I'll ck. with him to see ifn he is lookin for anymorework. He stays pretty covered up also. my cell is 486-4450.
I know 2 people that have 0ne story or 1 1/2 story small home made elevators-
one is lifted on a simple screw thread
and the other uses cables and log truck winches- no safety features that I have seen other than up limit switches..
I have the stuff i have put aside for a home made elevator... and a dumb waiter... for the 2 story elevator I have the mast off a forklift... figured i'd build that all into a wall and basicly just hag the car off the front like it was where the forks would go... use a small elctric over hyd pump and few low voltage relays and switches and i don't think it'd be a big deal... for the dumb waiter i have the screw drive table they used to slide folks into an MRI unit.... thought I'd just stand it up....
p
Ponytl,
What you are contemplating doing is very dangerous and can be lethal.
My Father-in-Law (who could have afforded any elevator made) fell into the shaft of just the same type of homemade forklift mast elevator you are thinking of building.
Building the lift was the easy part. Incorporating some kind of safety devices and controls into it were not, so they were ignored.
If you are going to do this, I would suggest figuring out how to inter- lock the doors so they don't open unless the car is present, and also a call button so you don't have to pyhsically ride the car up and down to get it where you need it.
Those two items, had they been used, would have saved my FIL's life that day.
Howard Burt
thanks for your post... I aquire a ton of stuff for "future projects and usually have alot of time before i ever start to think about these things.... and since i have kids... i really do...
where i'd use this homemade lift... and not sure i ever will... but i did leave a place for it in my loft project ( a 6' x 5' space) closet up & closet down... btw i've had many old building with frt elevators that u have to wonder how no one did get killed... simple enough to have a latching system on the upper & lower doors where a. it has to be closed before the lift would move, and b. the car has to be there to release and electrical or mechanical latch where it can't be opened unless the car is there... there would be no "pit" as all the lift parts would be beside the car not under it... I also considered since it'd only travel between the ground floor and second floor (12ft) it'd be simple enough to have a roll up type gate that would be normally closed that as the car came up the roof of the car would catch the bottom of the roll up door raise'n it at the same time it was come'n up.... and let'n it lower as the car went down.. a little spring pressure and gravity...
Sorry about your FIL but it's alot like stans fly'n machines... most people that build em & fly em could afford a factory built used plane... there are only so many "safety precautions you can build into things... " I'd never build something like this for anyone but me... but then i don't let other people use my tractors & bobcats... I like to think I'm one of those people who is very aware of whats around me and know most all the things that can go wrong... I have no idea how my mom has survived my brothers and me... but i guess you have to extend trust to the untrusted so that they may become trustworthy...
btw... if i don't use the mast for an people elevator, my garage at the loft has a 14ft ceiling thought it'd be cool to be able to ride my bikes onto a platform and lift em up out of the way for storage/parking space
p
Ponytl,
I don't see the correlation between a home made lift and Stan's flying machines, except that they are both home made. Most people would expect that when you open the door to the elevator that car will be there.
As for my FIL, he was an M.D. and could afford the best, but he was also a guy who loved a "good deal". Like you, his lack of safety rational was suprisingly similar to yours. He figured he would only "use it himself," and felt he also was "one of those people who is very aware of whats around me and know most all the things that can go wrong... "
Unfortunately for him, he got into a certain routine for about a year, and one morning the routine was altered, the door was left open, and down the shaft he went.
I always wondered if he spent his last moments of his life thinking about all the money he saved on that thing, or if he had wished he had gone with something a little more mainstream.
You also mention having had other buildings with old frieght elevators...
btw i've had many old building with frt elevators that u have to wonder how no one did get killed...
And oddly enough, I have been close to one other elevator fatality early on in my career.
I was working on a turn of the century 4 story office building that had a 1930 ish Otis elevator retrofitted in it. The kind with the sliding brass cage that shuts and leaves a small ledge on the outside of the platform.
One weekend, two 12 year old boys came in the building and rode the elevator. One noticed the ledge on the outside of the platform and decided he wanted to ride on the outside of the cage door. He stood on the outside of the cage and had his friend push the go button. What he didn't know was that the shaft narrowed once it cleared the basement and he was soon forced through the diamond mesh cage and suffocated before his friiends eyes. Being a Saturday, the building was deserted and his friend spent several hours with his dead friend, pushing the alarm bell, (no phone in those days).
Hope I don't come off sounding too preachy, but I don't think you can be too safe around these things, especially if there is even the outside chance that someone other than yourself could gain access to it and use it.
If I ever get feeble and am still in the house I'm in now I will likely build my own elevator just before I'm incapable of climbing stairs, probably hydraulic out of surplus forklift parts.
As for safety, appreciate your FIL story, but the grandkids (3 to 11 YO) still dont even know of any guns in the house except the 1836 musket and old percussion Navy colt locked inplace over the hearth, similar precautions would be in place for great-grandkids and elevators. As for me and DW, guess it would be about time to go if I couldn't do the control systems correctely.. ........
my kudos to ponytl.
A simple spring loaded switch with a contact point that is activated by the car stopping at that level and a magnetic latch on the door works as door interlock safety. Been used on many commercial elevators for 50+ years. Pretty simple stuff for the guy that knows how to put the rest of a homemade elevator together IMO.
Or just use a mechanical linkage on the door and an interlock switch to keep the car from moving unless all doors are closed.
Anything can be dangerous if the builder/designer doesn't think of the "what if" stuff.
Dave
Edited 3/2/2006 6:56 am ET by DaveRicheson
I know 2 people that have 0ne story
Why would you need an elevator for a one-story house?
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
status... all status.... dude if you can have an elevator in a 1 story house... u already impressed me
p
sorry about that guys
I guess the 1 story was above ground level known in the real world as 2
All I could think was while reading your story
was, "Zen and the Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance"!
Doncha jus' love not gettin' screwed!!! : )
Great story.
Be well
a...
If Blodgett says Tipi Tipi Tipi, it must be so!
Great story.
We use to do all of the minor and mid range maintenance on the company's elevators. Some of those creatures went back to the forties and fifties, if not older. Mostly cable hoist/counter weight system, and a few hydraulic. Manuals and such were lost years ago, so everything was passed down through OJT. Cool way to learn because you learn with your hands and brain.
Remind me to tell you the story of a senior maintenance man, a stuck 480v contacts, and the elevator inspector.
We contract all of our elevator maintenance and repair now, and I often wonder about how bad we are getting screwed on some of the repairs they make. No one around anymore to even evaluate what is wrong, much less know if what they did is what we contracted to get done. Sad, but the company decided that we cost to much, and contractors could do it cheaper.
Ya gonna rub their nose in it?
Dave
> Ya gonna rub their nose in it?
At least tell them that your cardiologist advised you to avoid shocks like that price they gave you, and to take the stairs instead. ;-)
-- J.S.
Thanks for the comments...
no this is not on my loft project but a small commercial building I have, I knew I'd get a little blasted about working on my own elevator... even almost didn't post because of it... Like was mentioned on here it's hyd... it actually has no safety type brakes ect... because worst case it's like let'n down a barber chair... these things were invented here as was the garage lift by an Italian guy who started "rotory lift" later to become dover...
there are no load tests for Hyd elevators instead pressure tests are done... really a simple deal ... test the pump pressure, and test the unit for leak down... and thats pretty much it...
If i thought for a second anything i could do would harm anyone but there are always risks.. if someone falls on a stair Stan built you think just becasue he does great work he wouldn't be looked at as a "source for funds" anything you touch, inspect ect puts you in line for the lawyers if there ever was cause.... I just refuse to live that way... if the most they can do to me is take everything i have... so be it
as for the repair company... naa I won't say anything... what i left off was when they left... they left parts on the floor... wires hang'n, screws loose... things bypassed ect... a real hack job... I guess they figured it'd all be replaced anyway per them... so why bother putting it back like they found it....
The problem here is there are no more local repairs guys... you have the big 3 national companies and their management spends more time learning how to increase billing than it does on how to do what they do... Unless you have a Maint. contract for your lift ($675.00 a month for mine and that does not include parts, labor or service) yes you read that right... What this gets you is.... they will come out when you call them and bill you the same rate as if you were not under contract... they explained it to me as... "we'll come faster when you call because you'll be our customer"
Guess it comes down to... I trust my work...
I did fail to give credit to a guy named Johnny that i found on the "elevator repair forum" on the net... This guy is GOLD I'm not sure of his age but he furnished me a road map from memory of all the things i should check... he took the time to write me at least 10 emails with descriptions and details... I had the manuals but his descriptions were more clear than the factory stuff, he also furnished me his Cell # but in respect to him I did and redid everything he told me before i ever called... and i did call just so make sure what he & I were calling the same part was in fact the same part, he instructed me on how to ride the car from the roof of the car... i never knew the controls were there and that saved me 20 trips back & forth to the mechanical room, and to top all that off... he called me every few hours to see how i was doing.... I felt as if i had a mentor... he gave me options and instruction.... for this I am very greatful....
p
We had one hydraulic elevator in an old office building I managed (plus some traction units), and we had to replace the hydraulic cylinder. State law I think. Something about the older units having a single wall tube, and they were prone to corrossion, and if the tube developed a hole then the cab would drop with no control. So we had to pull a 4-floor cylinder out of the basement, and install a new one. Wasn't cheap.
Anyway, my point is that if you plan on letting the public use your elevator, you're gonna have to get it inspected. I hope they accept the rebuild by a non-licensed contractor.
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
quick thought...you better be comin' to Tipi Fest cause so far we have seeyou and Diesel doin' a copper and gang cuttin' demo pool side (cause....shhhhhhh... but I need a pool house) so why not do an elevator demo.......imagine a pool house with a copper roof and an elevator up to the slde...yeeeeha
If Blodgett says Tipi Tipi Tipi, it must be so!
I can see it now! New Olympic diving event - 50 meter platform. Have to take an elevator in order to keep on schedule.Now, just how deep will that diving well have to be? Let's see, at 9.8 m/sec^2, and terminal velocity is....
I've gotta ask- have you checked with the state regarding the legality of you self-performing repairs/maintenance on the elevator? Here in NJ, every elevator is inspected and tested yearly by the Department of Community Affairs, and all work on them has to be performed by approved personnel. Given the dangers of an elevator failing, it makes sense that they want to make sure that the building owners aren't playing around with the elevators themselves just to save a few bucks over hiring an elevator maintenance company.
I don't know what the state regs are where you live, but you might want to look into it. If that elevator ever fails and it's found to be due to repairs you did yourself, you're property owners insurance may leave you hung out to dry.
Bob
If you have any source to file a report on these guys, you should do it. This is exactly what gives service people a bad reputation - and they earned it!
I've worked around evelator installers some, and from my experience they are the most arrogant tradesmen I've ever encountered. The attitude seems to be "while I'm working here no one better inconvenience me in any way".
I understand that they have a 7 or 8 year apprenticeship program which qualifies them to work on elevators, escalators and moving walkways.
The arrogance I think stems from the fact that they have a long training period, and face some of the most stringent inspections out there, forcing them to be perfectionists. There inspections are dealing with "Life Safety" issues. If they screw up and an elevator fails there is the potential for catostrophy. That such failures are so rare is a credit to their industry.
Having said all that, with the liability they face, it is no suprise to me that they wanted to go the safe and easy route, (and they may well have been ripping you off at the same time.) While I'm sure you've been diligent in your repairs, I think I would prefer to ride an elevetor maintained be the guy with all the required training.
Since you mentioned inspections, I don't think I have ever seen a hydraulic elevator load tested.
We get annual inspections on all of our elevators and load test every two or three years on the cable/counter weight ones. Maybe the load test for hydraulic is longer and I have just missed seeing them,...don't know.
At any rate, my experience with hydraulic elevators is that a failure may mean a slow descent to the lowest level, or maybe getting stuck between floors, but nothing that is life threatening, to my knowledge ( as limited as it is).
Cable/counter weight systems are another issue. Brake failure can mean a rapid ascent to the highest floor if the secondary brake on the governor cable also occurs. Otherwise you are just stuck between floors. A main cable separation, a very rare occurrence, would mean the car would exceed the down speed limits and all braking systems would engage. The manual ones underneath the car are particularly nasty. they bite into the guide rails with such ferocity that the car stops in a matter of a few feet and the rails is ruined.
Watching these test conducted under the watchful eye of the state fire marshal is real learning experience.
Dave
what did your old elevator cost when new in 1966?
once you get your repair work checked and o.k.'d by a certified inspector
maybe some time playing with the camcorder
borrow somebody's pet chimpanzee
put a wrench in his hand
film yourself and the monkey going up and down the elevator
and send the film to the original elevator repair crew.
i love silent movies . . . . . .
I agree with everything your doing...Took control of my cable TV guy much the same way. They kept increasing the fees each month so I finally cancelled the service. I was still getting some signal from the line and they came out several times to ask if I really wanted to stop service. On the third go around, I walked the guy around to the side of the house and showed him where his cable came into my house from the street. I took my trusty side cutting pliers out of my pocket, cut about two feet of his cable off while he watched, handed the cut cable and splitter to him and asked if he had a clear understanding of my intentions. He seemed to get the point and we've never spoken to each other since. I felt great afterwards and have never thought of going back. Something to be said for taking control of the situation. In your elevator situation, you not only took charge but you also acquired a good deal of knowledge Way to Go!!!
> I walked the guy around to the side of the house and showed him where his cable came into my house from the street. I took my trusty side cutting pliers out of my pocket, cut about two feet of his cable off while he watched, handed the cut cable and splitter to him and asked if he had a clear understanding of my intentions.
Wow. You actually saw, and even spoke to, a real live cable guy? I cut the cable as close to the pole as I could get, stripped all of it out of the house, and tossed it. We've had satellite for five years, hands down better than cable. More reliable, better picture.
-- J.S.
Very cool. And it only took you a week to learn the trade? way cool. The only elevator guys I've been around were quite kept to themselves and never answered a question directly. Now we know why.
Of course I might be asking the wrong questions. I always bombard them with escape and override questions. I think I scare them into thinking I might try to overtake on one day
Kind of a similar story about learning. My boss has this attitude that all wiring is the same. If your an electrician then you should be to wire anything. He sent me to Marion Illinois last spring with a truck load of access control alarm and video stuff. ANd for a helper he sent along the shop welder. Three story building. When I got back Friday the girl that handles the security side asked me how it went."Well considering that I had to teach myself a whole new trade from the fundementals on up it wasn't bad. SHe spit her drink out she was laughing so hard.
Ugha Chaka! Ugha Chaka! Ugha, Ugha, Ugha, Chaka!