I have been in business since 1973. I started doing Tile Setting, then some small reno’s. Worked as an Job Super for a company for a while, and was elevated to a partner( on my job only), doing subdivisions. My income came from the profit on the houses, their profit was on the land and the houses. Averaged about 15-18 houses a year. After the Regean slow down, the partners stopped building. Started doing spec houses, and some custom work, and finally shifted to all custom homes, as the profit on the spec’s weren’t worth the risk. Land had escalated so hight that a small builder couldn’t compete with the larger investors. Largest house was 11,874 sq.ft.. Beautifully done, built in 3 days less than 1 year, building permit to co. Home owner strung me out for 1 year for the final payment, having to settle for about 70% of the final payment. Even the Architect couldn’t understand why, other than “because he could”. With the slow down of the economy, I have stayed busy, but not making any money, just paying bills. My wife sold her business last year, so we are paying our health insurance out of pocket, $1500 a month. Collecting money is a problem, I have a couple of customers paying monthly. The latest job was for a prominent local figure. Billing is going through an Architect. Still waiting three weeks for money. I have branched out building cabinets, vanities and built ins. Still tough to make a buck.
I am seriously considering closing down, and going on SS next year when I turn 62. It is not fun any more. I have a 42′ sailboat that wifey and I will live on. If I said the word, she would be there with lines untied, saying hurry-up.
Problem is, I will still need some income. I had always felt that with all the experience in carpentry, wood working, site management, and small business experience, I would always have a value. I have a Coast Guard Captain’s license also. There is on place to go with all this. Never thought that at this point in life that about all I could find to do is work in a convenience store. Never thought that all my skills would not be marketable. I realize the economy will come around again, probably with new rules to be established, like every other slow down.
Sorry for the ramble, didn’t know how others felt about their careers in construction, and how it would end.
Replies
I can relate.
I'm going thru the same thing, no sailboat. Good luck.
I can relate also....
I'm a displace IT person and haven't had a full time job in almost 10 years due to outsourcing/off-shoring. The Good Lord has kept us healthy and put food on the table.
Seem like where heading into ruin because of our government and greedy investors. I don't look for things to get any better.
What are we going to do when they cut our SS benefits to give to those that didn't save or live within their means?
I'll get off my soapbox now....
Best of luck...
Effectively my career is over.. It's projected that at least a full decade will pass before there is enough movement in the contruction equip,ment I've been selling for the past 20 years comes back to a sustainable level.
Age 61 too soon to retire.. I want to keep working for at least another decade.. not because I need all that money, but because I was doing something I loved and was darn good at it..
Now I need to switch industries and nobody wants an old man as a trainee.
nobody wants an old man as a trainee
...let alone an ornery and stubborn one! (from a fellow ornery and stubborn old man)View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Sounds to me like you're in better shape than many others here, including me. So what if you have to shift gears again? We've all been in that position and survived, even prospered...on several levels.
I'm sure you can get by, living on your boat for a couple of years, without income if needs be. You can probably pick up enough on shore work with your tools, in marinas and from wealthier local boat owners you meet on your travels to pay your monthly expenses.
We can't be certain of how the building business will change but we can be sure of one thing, the US population is increasing and they gotta live somewhere.
I took SS at 62 because the numbers made more sense that way at the time. Now they make even better sense.
Taking SS doesn't mean that you have to retire, just that you may have to pay some back if you earn too much during the first few years. After full retirement age (66-67 now?) you can earn as much as you wish without sacrificing any benefits.
Edited 9/7/2009 11:17 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
You aren't alone, I'm more concerned now than I have ever been. Grumpy about it too.
I can't hang it up, and no sailboat either, just keep on keeping on and make do the best I can.
I hope ya find a happy resolution.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"
Jed Clampitt
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I remember when I went through a divorce. I took it pretty hard. I am not going to bad mouth my ex-wife, but will say that when we weren't getting along it was her decision to leave. I didn't want to be a weekend dad, and I wasn't ready for it to be over.
I was crying in my beer to a co-worker about it and then he told me that his wife left him for his best friend. It set me back a little, I said wow that must really be tough, how did you handle that? Do you ever still see the guy?
He said "oh I never met the guy"
It took awhile for it to set in but but I realized what he was trying to say was that there were a lot of people out there that had it a lot worse than me, and in a friendly way, quit cryin.
You are not the only one in a tough spot brother. I have my family and we all have our health but every day I worrry how I will feed my babies.
My second wife and I met while I was a single parent raising my youngest son who was too much for his mom. She had a 1-1/2 year old whos dad had crawled off into the bag, became a meth addict and kept it secret as long as he could. I have met his family and know he was a good guy till the dope. When we got together family was our top priority.
We both wanted more kids but did not expect the miscarriage. Then a perfect healthy girl and we decided to roll the dice one more time. It was to be our last try (we are both getting older) but a late term miscarriage was very hard on my wife, like a death in the family. We had to try again and last year we were blessed with our youngest daughter.
I have a similar skillset as yours, although it sounds like you had a better run up than me, I was always sacrificing the supervision position at work to keep a scheduled camping trip etc. had to try to spend time with my sons. Maybe thats good, less far to fall.
Now I find myself in the position where I will have to work all of my life, retirement is a fantasy, and I am not complaining about that, I signed up for that. What I didn't know is that I wouldn't be able to use the skills I worked so hard for, never thought all my skills would not be marketable.
The thing is there are a few choices out there. I think my biggest problem is worrying about making the right choice now. Either way it looks like I will spend chunks of time away from my family to earn a living.
And I know there are folks who are worse off. To some degree looking back I am glad for the tough road, it makes this a little easier.
i can relate. My only comment would be careful about how far you think your other skills will take you. i'm discovering that past forays into other areas to broaden my experience has not had the effect i'd anticipated. In some respects, i wonder if it's done just the opposite.
See what your realistic alternatives are before hanging everything up. 61 is still young. And this is a horrific time for experimenting.
Don't mean to sound like I am crying, I do realize I have alternatives. It bothers me that as a self employed person, after all the years of effort, to have it just sort of waste away. I have been commended for the work that I do. The high end people I have worked for, have, when their guard is down, told me how much they respect my work, and how they envy my abilities, then go on to do what ever they can to knock what ever they can, to reduce, or avoid the bill. I tell all my customers that even though I want to give them 100%, I am only human, but they will get 98%. There are some days, that the hands just don't do exactly what the brain says to do. All the business expenses are going up, but what we can charge goes down. Last year's insurance bill, including Workman's comp., liability, and vehicle insurance, was about $33,000, with no employees. I use subs, and in the past had one carpenter that was with me most of the time, but as a sub, but he was paid as a subcontractor rate.I always thought that I would wind down, not just give in. I enjoy what I do, I enjoy the respect I receive from peers. It is a great feeling when I am out somewhere, and someone comes up and compliments me on a project I did, even some that are a couple of years old.I really didn't want to leave disgusted and disillusioned
My last customer, just prior to my by-pass surgery, stiffed me for $6400 and change. Mostly because I was doing his vacation cabin remodel at the direction of his DW who failed to include him in what she was asking me to do and what the total outlay was adding up to.
Problem was that they had gotten themselves way over-extended on some other deals and I'm way down the line. I have a lean on his $35,000 Harley, but, while I'll never see it, it's worth it to see him sweat.
I'm also taking the age 62 SS and my Corp. retirement, I'm just learning to live well below my means. I'm starting a Wasabi growing operation that looks really promising and, if it pans out, will make all those years of sweat and blood irrelevant. And for those big sawmills in which I devoted over 60 hours a week in for 18 years? Most of them are parking lots or weedy fields.
But now, I'm working at home, being a low-key farmer and doing some freelance writing and not fighting with banks and insurance companies and the occasional obtuse customer.
Some of the larger contractors around here are getting just enough work to keep a handful of employees and/or a minimal cash flow to keep the bills paid. And sweating payments on their specs.
There are jobs out there....I've found some part-time work running equipment in a rock pit and driving truck on occasion. But I've positioned myself to live lean with the retirement bucks and not get stressed out. If the economy improves, I've got some timber to sell but there's no hurry. Those trees just grow larger day-by-day.
My veggie garden is large enough to feed us all winter; today I'm putting another batch of stuff in the freezer.
Fortunately, I had very little debt when this down economy all started (I had a strong hunch it was coming).
Hang in there. Enjoy your boat.
Glad to hear all of the recovery story Frank. Remember you had the surgery, but have not seen you post that often the last few years.
Glad to hear you are relatively healthy now.
I've gotten into a real frugal mode....trying to fit on a "junkhound" hat so I can build some creative and functional stuff with all the odds and ends I've squirreled away over the years.
I've gotten into a real frugal mode
You da MAN !!!
Have commented to DW numerous times, it would be interesting to see the economy and the world if everybody lived frugally....... would probably be the end of class envy???
One thing I never understood, even with a decent background in macro economics, is how a "growth-oriented economy" is forever self-sustaining.
And I can't say with a straight face that I've always lived below my means, but I'm married to a New Englander and her influence has helped. I pretty much went to cash only about a year and a half ago and none too soon.
Fortunately, our health insurance ponied up better than expected but the co-pay kind of got into my resources, including my Wasabi fund, but I'll survive.
One of the advantages of bypass surgery as opposed to stents is the long-term medication list is pretty small. And if I behave myself, the longevity of the grafts is pretty good.
Edited 9/8/2009 7:32 pm by Notchman
Class Envy?
I don't believe there is much of that, I usupect like me Most Americans would like those of means to accept responsiblity for their prosperity and be willing to pay their rightful dues..
I live with a lot of wealthy people and you'd be surprised at those who manage to evade paying any taxes at all.
There is nothing to be disgusted or disillusioned about, the state of the economy is not your fault. These are the circumstances you find yourself in and you have to make the best of it. Looking back you must realize that it was the difficult things in life that caused you to grow as a person, and that while you don't look forward to a difficult change it will be for the best personally if not financially.
As a self employed contractor through no fault of your own that work is just not there anymore. You will be able to find something that is better than a convenience store. I suggest a high end liquor store as a first place to look/suggestion and it just goes up from there!
Please don't take my use of the word crying in my post the wrong way. All of us who have posted here have lamented the unfortunate circumstances we find ourselves in. There is nothing wrong with describing the mess we are in, the wrong is in not trying to make it better somehow, someway. My message was intended as a friend helping a friend up, not a put down, just like I received so many years ago.
I have had a lot of questions about that myself, wondering if I had stayed the course instead of trying new ventures, if I would be better off.
There are positives and negatives but for me trying the new ventures was something I had to do. I need a new challenge from time to time, doing the same thing for too long leads to boredom and trouble.
Hopefully lessons learned will help in the decision for future choices. I still see welding being in demand, although there is a lull right now, I think it will come back very well, but some areas might be better than others. I can take a job now or hold out for awhile for what might be a better job. If the better job does not materialize will the job now still be open?
There are a lot of other factors to consider but I think I am doing the right thing, will give it a few more weeks before committing.
I used to watch the Sports guys retire then come back and retire and then come back again.
Now i know what they felt like.
I dont want to start up my roofing company again, Buy all new tools and trucks, Hire crazy people only to bid lower then ever to get a job then try and collect.
Why risk what one has already..
Im just doing repairs and being low low key..
Who even knows if we have tomorrow?.
Time to set sail.
Hello to our Oregon Coast man
was thinking it had been a long time since I've seen your name in lights here - was hoping there would have been a chance you would have made it up to Yelm for Crazylegsfestnoting you mentioned bypass - thoughts are with you on healthful recovery
Cheers
Considering that about every artery I had was 99% plugged; that I'd been suffering from increasingly debilitating chest pains for several months....putting off telling DW (an RN no less), I'm lucky to be alive.
Didn't have a heart attack...surgery went picture perfect. Recovery took awhile, but I'm back in pretty top shape...doing exercises, eating right (according to ME and NOT Splinty). :-). Doing plenty of heavy outdoor work.
Thanks for the regards....now I guess I've survived to look forward to something more miserable to die of!
I did not know that. Sure glad your still with us.
<<eating right (according to ME and NOT Splinty)>>I heard that... ;^)I get a huge kick out of living BEYOND my means. I think i took in $7500 last year, should be about the same this year. Last week i sold my Power Wagon, though...that'll take care of a vacation or two! I have two years' worth of wood collected from the drop from the truss company, and my recent involvement with volunteering for the food bank takes up the slack from my garden. Most people seem to think i have a trust fund, which makes me laugh until i pea. OK, not exactly a stupendous benchmark for a woman of a certain age, but i do suffer from a surfeit of glee sometimes and can't contain myself. I'm delighted to hear your wasabi plans are moving ahead again. "Hold fast to dreams..." as Langston Hughes recommended. You have no idea how many times i thought of you - or more properly, your excavator thingamee - while digging several miles of footings for my new shop.
On the Wasabi, I've got the material staged for the beds and power down there to run a couple of pumps.
With my moderate income (and I'm staying cash-basis only) I'm building the fund to buy the plant tissue when I'm all ready for it. It's pretty spendy so my first bed will be pretty small and, with the help I'm getting from some of the academics, I'll convert the first growth to multiple plant scions and then get serious, probably in a year.
With the climate here, I've been assured that I can do the planting anytime of the year, except during a hard freeze, a rarity here.
The garden this year is awesome! My hoophouse is cranking out tomatoes as fast as my partner and I can pick them. I've had a couple that weighed in at 1 1/2 lbs each! And my blue lake pole beans are a great success, as opposed to last year.....and a whole bunch of other stuff.
My garden partner has the area festooned with flowers, something I'd never spend time on, but it looks great and is attracting bees big time.
Bought a freezer and I'm starting to load it up.
And putting up firewood....sheesh! I don't know how I got all this stuff done when I was working full time.
I'm writing some essays for Sun Magazine....they pay pretty well if I submit something they'll publish.
We got a very late, wet start to the summer, and last night was just above freezing. Some of the squash are a little burnt, but still putting along. Still, i had my first mini-watermelon out of the HH last week...yum! I ordered a mess of heirloom beans this spring after last years good luck, but the grasshoppers ate every single one to the ground. I had a huge production of peas this year, oddly enough, vines 8-9 feet tall. Grasshoppers don't like peas, for whatever reason, nor sweet pea plants or flowers. They love alfalfa and beans, so i don't know what the divider is. I didn't even try the garbanzos this year, based on the shut-out.Petunias and morning glories from last year re-seeded themselves, along with sweet peas and hollyhocks i planted on purpose, so i have the most delectable scent in the air when i work outside. There's still a dearth of bees here, but more this year than last. Some bees (?) showed up that are shaped like a camel-colored wedge, with no stripes/yellow/black...first time i've seen it. Sound like anything you know, Mr. Beekeeper? With my bug luck, it's probably the next plague!In a year, perhaps i can address you as "Obi Juan Juasabi, High Priest of Hot Stuff". I'll have to check out Sun and see if you've scooped me on the Griffolyn article. ;^)
My llamas love the chard and I stand with all five surrounding me while I dole out the over-mature stems and leaves....one of them loves cucumbers. Slugs are always a problem here, but the one thing they really love is Cilantro of all things.
My only submission to the Sun so far is my bear story....for their Reader's Write section. If they publish it, it will be in Feb. But I'm working on some other things that require a bit more effort and care.
I have plenty of tales to tell....things I've never brought up here....I won't even think of encroaching on your literary turf! :-)
First the bear story, then the frog chronicles...they'll be begging for more!I'm working on my new shop building, with a wing off either side: one is the Wood Wing Instrument for firewood storage, and the other side i'm calling The Chicken Wing, under your avian in-flu-ence. Like you, i'm already nailed down with furry responsibility and wondering how much more i need to add. Aggravated hoppercide, though...very tempting...Because cilantro attracted slug to the hoophouse, i quit growing it inside. Then i got a rash of toads this spring and the slug population withered; i had to watch where i stepped, there were that many. Now instead of dozens of medium toads i have a few enormous ones. I know some toads can-nible one another, but i'm not sure if that's the case with my herd. Unfortunately, the slug population rebounded as the number of toads decreased.
Speakin of chickens, I found a loving litttle child to adopt 3 roosters tomorrow am. Just too much racket and coyote taunting.
and, now the really good news, my first eggs! I got 4 so far..LOL small, like a big grape, but they are trying!
PS Notch, I was wondering about you, and lost your email addy...I got hot pepps that'll keep yer pipes clean iffn ya want some. Good to see ya back. I'm just discovering how good wasabi is, had some wasabi mayo at a friends house a few weeks back, now I'm hooked. Making it with andouille on steak rolls..ahhh, loving it.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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You ever think about kissing one of those toads? Mebbe it'll turn into something good LOL
I kissed 'em all. Could be that's why only the big, brave ones are still around. The rest of 'em probably thought it was a close call with being eaten.
I saw the actual numbers start to decline in Oct of 07. 08 was just a slow spiral down till we couldn't keep 2 jobs going at a time. And when you depend on relatively small jobs 2 at a time doesn't make it. My problem was that I wouldn't borrow money to keep going and I couldn't see daylight at the end of the downturn to risk more. So I closed.
You can still make a few bucks doing smaller work for cash and such if you haven't got anything else. My brother (who worked for me) did that for 7 months till he found a job. My son (also worked for me) is still doing it. When I get the occasional call from a client who knows me as me I forward it to my son so he can make some money to go with his unemployement. It just sucks. And their is no one to blame. Hope it turns around for you. DanT
I actually saw it coming in 2006. Prior to that most of my contractors had work lined up for months or more. By the spring of 2006 most were frantically looking around for more work. By the fall of 2006 the only work was building on spec. The pros were already moving out of the market as quickly as possible. By the spring of 2007 many of my contractors were either coming to me to refinance their equipment or trying to sell it..
From the fall of 2006 I basically lived on the cash reserves I had at my company.. Reserves intended for my retirement.. By the spring of 2007 I shifted my direction from selling at a profit to selling to dispose of our inventory.. Instead of strong 5 figure commisions, I was earning low 4 figure monthly commisions.. By summer even that had dried up completely. Just prior to labor day they had to lay us all off.. The only who remained was a childhood friend of the owner and had several decades of cash reserves to use to be sustained..
2008 was spent finishing my house and looking for work.. by the fall of 2008 I was forced to take money from my IRA to keep currant.. In Jan. of 2009 just befre the market collasped I sold off all my retirement in an attempt to stay currant.. The last of those funds will be gone by thanksgiving when Foreclosure will begin..
" Foreclosure will begin.."
Frenchy, foreclosure on your timberframe? Say it ain't so.
I'm dancing as hard as possible. (looking for work) The sad thing is in todays market it's taking a year or more to sell houses in my price range.. By the time they complete foreclosure and it sells I'll have landed back on my feet.
Ya can always bite your pride (like Ron did, and not afraid to discuss it) and go work nights at Wally World ??
The foreclosure statement surprised me, thought you did your house on a pay as you go basis..
I did, however, I still have a small mortage on it..
I've got many options left..
first legal, delay as long as possible. Any time I find a job The bank will rewrite my mortage.
second, I can always get a reverse mortage.
Third, a bridge loan is always possible..
Frenchy how much of a mortgage do you have left? I am 18 years younger than you and i am worried about the coming years, i hope everything works out for you.
It sounds like from what you are saying that the foreclosure is a long process and there are lots of options? How much is your house worth?
The foreclosure process can be dragged out for year if you enlist the aide of an attorney.
With cooperation from the bank you might get even longer because most mortages will cost the bank money. More if they cooperate with you..
On top of that if you are old enough you can have a reverse mortage, which is someone buys the house from you and allows you to live in it payment free.(as long as you live) In addition if you have sufficent equity they pay you monthly untill you die.
I have about 9 years left on my mortgage. If I remortgage the house for 30 year loan My payments would decrease dramatically.. However I'd wind up paying it off during my retirement which I have no intention of doing..
Conservatively I have well in excess a million dollars of equity.Much more in an up market..
It would seem the reverse mortgage might be a good option with all that equity in the house.
Do you have waterfront property? Or why is real estate worth so much there?
Is it possible to get a job that will just cover the mortgage and carry on as you are right now?
Or sell the waterfront and move to a small but affordable house and have a sheetload of cash in the bank and retire now?
West Coast.
Yes, it's on the lake (waterfront as you call it) What's more the lake I live on is the nearest to the Twin cites that allows big boats. This lake is where all the movers and shakers live.. Senators congressmen, Fortune 500 CEO's, Former Vice presidents widows. It's where republicans come to collect money from major contributors.. Where presidents have stayed overnight. It used to be where A former president spent his summers.We have an abundance of doctors and lawyers and other people of real Means.. It's where the Cargills live (the worlds largest privately held company) Major successful athletes, Rock stars, etc..
It's also overrun with inherited wealth and the summertime home of many famous people. Normal now and for the last decade or so is a property sells and the house on it which may be a nice large house, relatively modern. Is torn down and replaced with a new bigger one with all the latest ammenities.
My home is probably towards the lower end of the wealth scale. 20 + million is not that unusual to spend on a new house (just the house not counting the land) Because of the concentration of wealth My community is the richest in the state. With a massive amount of funds in reserve. In spite of that, taxes are relatively modest. Taxes in any other community in the state would be many many times what we pay. Cram a bunch of multimillion dollar properites into one area and that is the result..
Right now we are able to pay interest and taxes only on the property With our income..however once rehired I shall be able to rather quickly retire the mortgage an enter retirement with the home paid for and a rather pleasant retirement to look forward to.
I built this place with my own 2 hands during nights and weekends over the last decade.. I built it exactly as I intended without any consideration of resale..
If resale had been my intent I wouldn't have used the valuable woods I did. Black walnut Timbers up to 20 feet long, stainless steel bolts, superinsulated, double timberframe on the inside etc.. There are so many ways I could have cut corners and built a less expensive house.. I didn't compromise anyplace..
I have no intention of quitting and laying down.
I will continue to attempt to find a job and lacking that I will use my energy to protect what I have lived my whole life for..
If something is important enough to make all the sacrafices we have it's important to never quit..
How long until you can retire?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Can or want to?
Can? Next summer.. Want to? A decade from now.. maybe not then.. One of the things about the type of sales I've done all my life.. It's based on relationships. People buy from me. I sold Caterpillar, Lulls, Gehls, and Ingersol Rands to some of my customers because they liked buying from me.. They trusted me..
Before I sold construction equipment I sold to major accounts industrial forklifts.. I earned that same trust and respect.
I sold 1/4 of a million dollars worth of cranes on a simple phone call while I was on vacation about 150 miles south of Salt Lake City Utah. I sold the airlines 4 semi loads of electric gulf carts (130) on my way home one day.. I've been handed signed blank checks and told to fill in the correct amount by people who can't read or write English.
The trust it takes to do that sort of thing doesn't come easy. Not when there are so many competitors.
Sooner or later someone will be hiring and I'll return to work..
I can sure see the desire to live there and your own drive to keep the dream alive. I am not sure it is the correct path including factors as your age and health are concerned. But one has to live the dream and find out if it is wrong or right! Here's hoping a job comes your way soon Frenchy! Cheers.
Thanks.. I do too.. If someone had told me I'de be out of work for 2 years I never would have believed him especially when I try so hard to find a job..
I bet I can find you a job. Do you realize you may have to travel to find employment? In other words you don't have to move, you just can't live at home while your working.
Have you ever seen the website http://www.roadtechs.com ?
It is a site that is dedicated to traveling industrial construction types, and a lot of the jobs that are posted there are posted by companies (contractors) that are basically labor brokers.
If you respond to a job posted there you are very likely to talk to a "recruiter". You would be perfect for that job, you have professional sales skills and are knowledgeable about various construction endeavors, I also think that the position of "recruiter" has a lot of turnover, especially with the smaller companies.
Even if you apply for a job with a large multinational company (like KBR etc) you will probably talk to a recruiter, although I think there is less turnover with the larger companies, seems most recruiters get experience with the smaller companies and then try to get a better job with the larger company.
And thats just off the top of my head, I am serious, I can find you a job! You may not like it, but thats why they call it work.
It's actually no use.
I found him several jobs in his field, but all he did was make excuses about why he could not take them.
Nice try though.
Work for the greatest vital intensity - the greatest solidity and aesthetic reality. Finally, eleminate everything non-essential. Reduce to the absolute essence. ~ F.C. Trucksess
Frenchy,
You're a Combat Vet AND a former NAVAL Officer................
SO don't say I never gave you anything you could use......
http://www.usajobs.opm.gov
I know there's something in commuting distance to you.
I'm sorry to hear that frenchy.
Good luck at whatever life throws at you
Gotta find a job. That will solve everything.. I've got plenty of equity in the house so once I have work it should be no problem to refinance.
You can't eat equity.
If I was you, I'd put it on the market right now at a price that it will sell. If it doesn't sell, lower the price till it does.
If there is truly any equity in the property, you'll get it now. If you wait, you might find out that the property will end up without any equity.
You need to look ahead in a positive way..
First; the housing market is starting to recover.. last month they reported for the first time in over 3 years the average value of homes went up 3% Homes that were on the market around here are now starting to sell.
While it is expected to be a long time before homes recover completely We now have the leadership for that to happen..
Second; quiting before the fight is over is a sign of a loser.. I've got a ton of moves even if I don't get a job.. (my highest priority)
Third; I built this house the way I wanted it.. not for anybody else.. It simply cannot be replaced. Not only for what it's worth but because some things are simply no longer available at any price..
4th; the equity I have now is in the millions. Rather difficult for that all to disappear..You can't buy the Washington Bridge for pocket change and you won't be able to purchase multi million dollar properties for a few hundred thousand..
I didn't really expect you to take any advice from me but at least it's out there. I won't say " I told you so" when your million dollar baby is sold on the courthouse steps 200k.
If you can get half of what you think it's worth, you probably should. Take the money and buy junk trailers. Live in one and you'll be rolling in cashflow for the rest of your life.
In Other words, Quit.
No. Dont' quit. Just cash in what you have and live within your means.
Property values are going to land a lot lower than you think. Don't believe that there is going to be any "recovery" anytime soon. The fundamentals of the economy speak otherwise.
Live within my means? todays or tomorrow's? I have at least another decade of capablity ahead of me. should I start living my retirement today?
So What if the economy falls? I didn't build this house to make a profit,, I built it to live in.. It's purely academic what it's worth.
Should I quit simply because I'm going through a rough patch or should I keep trying?
I've found that perserverance has it's rewards..
I understand this probably better than you do because in Sales there is nothing guaranteed. This months bonus will just as soon become next months shortcome.
I understand this probably better than you do because in Sales there is nothing guaranteed
Huh? I've been self employed since 1983. Nobody guarateed me anything.
Again, you are missing the point but I'll leave it at that. I know you would never consider the option that I gave you. I will say this though: if you can turn your equity into cash right now, you'd be surprised at it's buying power. You might be able to double or triple your return in a very short time.
Nobody guaranteed me anything.
I beg to differ. The Men's Wearhouse. You're gonna love the way you look.View ImageView Image bakersfieldremodel.com
I would look good in that suit!!!!!
I bought a suit from Men's Warehouse. I still look like a schmuck. I should get my money back.
It's because you're self-employed. BTW, salesmen look great in 'em!View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Blue..
The trouble with accountants is their inability to put anything other than a numerical value on things.. That blanket you had as a child may have no real monetary value to others but to you it contains all those memories of your childhood.. Thus it's value to you is far greater than it's price.
Same with this home.. While it's possible you are correct in that maybe I could possibly win in the trade and swap game you suggest. I never could have those memories of my girls helping me. Nor will I ever be able to enjoy the pleasure of seeing my dreams fullfilled.
On top of that the bargins I found would not be the same.. The black walnut timbers here cost me 17 cents a bd.ft. when I bought them.. Today if I could even find a sawmill not committted to the Chinese buyers I cwould be paying well over $3.00 a bd.ft.
The massive pieces of burl simply cannot be replaced at any price. I gained 9, 6"x6" 10 foot timbers plus 917 bd.ft. of beautiful burl. I paid less than $500 for all of that.. If you could ever find such thing again the market price would probably be well over $100,000.00
The Fiddleback maple I've used on so many raised panels simply would not be available I paid only 10 cents a bd.ft. for it and In various catalogs, depending on the figure of the fiddleback maple starts at abound $30.00 a bd.ft. and goes up to over $200 a bd.ft. That would for example raise the price of wood in my guest bathroom from a couple of dollars to tens of thousands of dollars..
What I paid for my copper would change from a negative number (after I turned in my scraps when finished) to tens of thousands of dollars.
Instead of spending $25,000 for all the hardwood I bought I might be forced to spend todays market prices which would exceed well over 1/4 of a million dollars if purchased at retail..
On top of that my labor which I failed to charge myself anything for would easily be well over 35,000 hrs (thus far) that alone is worth over a million and half dollars if purchased.. Now add the free telehandler, rental would be $250,000 or if purchased $90,000
On top of that add the contracted labor, probably $100,000 over the decade. Plus all the other things I've purchased.. plus todays value of land and we have well over 3 million dollars for a replacement cost..
So how can you place a value on those sorts of bargins?
Are you sure I could double or triple that sort of thing?
Yes, you could triple or quadruple it.
See there in lies the differance between me and you..
I have what I want.. I'm not greedy for something else. It's what being content is all about..
You have a theory which I don't agree with. Frankly, I'm not willin to take the gamble you are..
Please good god Frenchy, your unemployment has been killing me, to the point I think about it while driving or working for instance. I have been reading you for years and have got to ask this question.With your talent and eye for quality, why are you not doing for the public what you have been doing for yourself?
Edited 9/13/2009 12:16 pm ET by handymanvan
why are you not doing for the public what you have been doing for yourself
Another idea for Frenchy. If he can find the old surplus telescoping lifts for forklifts like he talked about a few years ago, he could start a resisdential elevator installation business. A friend had one installed in his new retirement house, $140K for the elevator! Must be a good profit margin in that.
I don't know many people who would be patient enough to put up with a decade worth of work. and still have a lot of work left..
If I hired others I am not sure I could use them efficently enough to profit from their efforts..
Besides home construction is so deeply in the toilet and so many pros are out of work that I doubt I could ever break into that market.
I know my limitations..
Incidently one web site I've been checking for the past 2 years used to have 12,000 to 15,000 new job listings for salesmen a week. Last week was their all time low of 206 new job listings..
Granted I check out a little over 15 web sites but the last few weeks I't only taken me a little over an hour to check them all.
9.7% unemployment means not a lot of people are buying much which means few jobs are available..
OH and I checked, the Navy doesn't want a 61 year old guy back either <grin>
There is money out there just waiting to come to you. By earning and not living entirely on reserves you could help yourself out a great deal. You can do small jobs where you earn a couple to many hundreds a day just doing things for others that you probably already know how to do. The work is fairly easy and lots of fun. Low stress too. Just tell people that you are doing that type of work and give a bid when asked. Seems folks have things they want to do but they like a respectable person to do them. There is more rotten wood, painting and sheetrock repair out there than kithen remodels. I also suspect that a steady diet of the smaller things can net a man a better year than chasing the big ones.
I personally applied Sonny Lycos's advice to my own business, I was doing very good and he helped me take it to great. You make your profit by bidding where YOU need it to be-then you can afford to give your customer a great job and a nice experience.If you decide to become a HandyMan, I would talk you through it on the phone if you need it to get going. I have seen what you have said you were making selling and you should be able to replace that income.PS---I think you are super ornery and you pizz me off most of the time but I will help you anyway if you want it. Fine Homebuilding and Taunton Press were a godsend to me and I believe that the information I got from them have set me apart in the home business.I usually just read so I hope this content is appropriate.
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.Nobody is as good as they seem, nobody is as bad as they seem either.
I'm not sure what you are recommending to me.. The reason I'm out of work has everything to do with the near total destruction of the construction industry. If it picks up I would do far better selling than building..
I'm not a pro by any stretch of the imagination and at age 61 it would require me to learn a whole new skill sets at an age when most pros are retired or retiring..
Frenchy, I have a friend that had a Million plus dollar home overlooking the Ocean in the best spot in Oregon. He too had sentimental value as it was his Grandfathers. He sold it last year moved to Bend OR bought a very nice 375000 dollar home and banked the rest and retired. Said it was the best thing he ever did. They bought his home for the lot and bulldozed the home. Why not sell, buy a nice home and retire. Why risk losing everything. At least put it on the market then see if you get any offers, at least you have options. I know its hard i could sell my house move in a rental and retire but i dont want to move either. But im not behind.. I have seen many homes built with love only to have new owners rip it all up. I have to realize on my home someones gonna bulldoze it or completey remodel it .. Heck sell it buy a home for 300000 with a big garage and tinker with your cars for the rest of your life.
Because he's smarter than everyone on this board...
just ask him.A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
I think we all live a form of denial or hard head
just hope that he pulls through this, where many haven't been able to...
many have seen the light, made the change and don't ever look back.
Others look back, change the circumstances of their decisions and live with regret the rest of their life.
Advice is is only to be suggestions. It's up to the person whether they use it or not...
I already suggested all that. I don't think he really wants to find out what his true equity position is.
You, sir, ring the bell.A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
I don't know what Frenchy's motivation is doing what he is doing. It may be sentiment, it may be good sense. It's his path and I don't think we can judge him, because we are not in his shoes. But if things go south on him because of those choices, then he will have to accept the consequences of them without much sympathy.
Bobby's
I have to do what I feel is the smart move for me.. I wish I could put you in my shoes for a bit so you would understand..
It's not about ego (but I have plenty of that to be sure) It's not about the money involved (although it's really considerable) It's really not about sentiment (although there is plenty of that)
It's about winning and losing..
I'm not quiter which is why I am where I am.. I've gone through rough patches in the past and come out ahead.. If I quit and sell out I'm a loser and can only decline from there..
Think of me like those stubborn Ranchers out west.. their livelyhood is under threat by many sources and yet they continue to raise their cattle and work hard to stay on the land..
Maybe you should just put the property up to see what it's really worth.
OK Then lets say you Won, now dont lose. Now i cant remember what you house looks like but i do remember it was big. Your 61 and said your in bad shape. What if you get hurt of your body fails more?. Hows your wife gonna handle this big place?. How about you sell buy a nice condo AND a small house. You still have plenty left. Now if something happens shes got a easy care place and She is set. I DO know what its like , I want to finish my house as it never got done. But if i was up against it all 8 proprieties will go up for sale. The first one sells, Im ok.. You can do what you wanna do but so far risking losing your house if your not gonna keep up with the payments and waiting for inflation to rise and not considering moving to work elsewhere does not seem rational .
Not moving to were the work is? I've seen countless ambitious successful people pursue that policy and in the end wind up with nothing..
Selling your house isn't as simple as you seem to indicate. You lose 5-7% of the price of the house in doing so.Plus closing costs etc.. ..
In addition there is the cost of the actual move itself. Finally getting what you have to fit in what you got.. Right now I have 1800 sq.ft. piled to the 9 foot ceiling down in my shop of wood, Equipment, tools, cars, and parts. You have to walk sideways to get through. Some whole corners are totally jammmed. How would you have me dispose of those near priceless burl planks 22 inches wide and 10 feet long? What about the bar top of solid piece of 26 inch wide 2 1/2 inches thick 10 feet long black walnut plank? over 10,000 bd.ft. of flawless white hard maple. Planks over 19 feet long and up to 14 inches wide?
Burn IT?
Most of the "movers for better jobs" I know tell me it's at least 20% of your equity to make a move.. 20% of a couple of million is $400,000.00. It's little things like the bowls you left behind because she didn't really like them but they must be replaced when you get to your new place.. It's drapes and curtains and rugs that don't match or fit.. It's furniture that doesn't fit and New organizations to join. It's countless things you never considered and individually don't amount to a lot but they sure add up..
How long would it take you to make up $400,000? That's after the expenses of living, after making all your payments etc..
Now consider this.. One of the best web sites for salesmen's jobs used to have 15,000-12,000 new job listings a week nation wide..
Last week they had 206 new listings..
Sure there may be jobs for cement finishers and dentists. Secrataries and factory help.. Is that your solution? I change my profession? Do you really want the competition? <grin>
A far better solution for me is called a reverse mortgage. They buy my equity and pay off the mortgage. I am currently looking for such a company that offers a buy out clause..
In additon I could get a bridge loan based on the equity I have. The interest cost of those is horrible but It's what I used to buy this place before I sold my last place. It still might be cheaper than a reverse mortgage.
I have options. The best is for me to get a job.. but still I can look for work and look for my options.
My wife is a financial planner (CFP), and reverse mortgages are not great solutions except in a relatively very small number of cases. They are very expensive, they erode equity quickly, and at 61 years old you are very likely too young for this type of product. I doubt that they are a great solution for you, but you should sit down with a professional who understands the significant complexity of these products before you go down that road (and by professional I don't mean the salesperson that will benefit from selling you the product).
Imagine this... you live on a nice big houseboat which holds all your belongings. Your nice boat has a large hole that you cannot fix. You have the option of hopping onto a healthy smaller boat with some (but not all) of your belongings. Someone else offers you the option of a large water pump which is powered by consuming your belongings, at a fairly alarming rate (a reverse mortgage). You can keep your boat afloat as long as you have belongings to feed the pump. So yep, this is a good (but expensive) solution as long as your belongings outlive you (and your spouse) because you got to live on your nice boat.
I completely understand the negative problems of reverse mortages.. It's not a ideal solution.. (my wife qualifies)
Your story assumes that the hole can't be patched.. That is not the case.. I will find employment again.. Once I do the leak can be repaired..
It's not like I'm even behind in my mortgage.. from the point I fall behind I have a while while I can still redeem it..
Another words we're talking about a leak that hasn't even started leaking yet.. I'm doing preplanning to ensure the leak doesn't sink the boat.
Frenchy, you've missed the boat on your numbers.
It doesn't take someone 400k to move even if they have to buy some extra cups and curtains.
If it did that that much, then I must have spent it because I moved and....thousands of people move every day! They didn't have the 400k either....if they did, they would be paying cash for their houses instead of renting and getting mortgages.
If someone only has 10k, then is is entirely possible that they will burn up 20% of their equity in the move.
Keep in mind. Frenchy's Million Dollar home is being appraised by the same amateur that built it. Might be biased. Vic
No, that's what the bank tells me it's worth..
No, that's what the bank tells me it's worth..
I can't help it... I gotta know...
YOU actually believe what any banker or appraiser thinks about real estate values?
Tell me it ain't so, big guy.A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
When they are willing to lend me money on it, you bet..
(oh by the way it's my credit union who holds the currant mortgage and I've been doing business with for 30+ years)
Let's say you go into the bank and tell the loan officer that you need a line of credit on your house that is equal to half the tax appraiser's value of the raw land.... say $125,000.
Does the value of the improved property really matter to the banker/appraiser? No.
Does telling you that your property is worth $2m matter to them? Yes.
That figure makes you more likely to borrow from them, pay them interest until, ultimately....
you pay the loan off or default and allow one of your banker's "friends" to buy a prime property for pennies on the dollar.A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
Well first you need to understand that the credit union has been a reliable source for loans for this family for well over 30 years..
Second forget the numbers you are working with because my next door neighbor recently (last month) sold his house for 1.5 million.. Any home under a million is a tear down..
Third I'm currently working with the credit union on a pay off loan since I have so much equity. They just quoted me 5.125% 30 year.. they offered me a 40 year loan with no prepayment penalty. The appraisel was done July 19th of this year..
Frenchy, No offense intended and I only wish you the best,
but you've been given some good advice here, and I think you should reconsider your position on some things..
having assetts in the form of equity in your home is only good if you are willing to sell it, which you aren't...a reverse mortgage may not be a good option and borrowing against the equity is only good if you can be assured of sufficient income for the entire life of the loan.
You talk about fall being a bad time to sell, well if you are really following the real estate market, you would know that few properties are selling quickly today...If you list it now you might, if you're lucky, get it sold by spring.
If it were me, i think I would also start thinking about liquidating other assetts such as these cars i hear about or the "priceless" piles of lumber (think ebay!)
Face it, Fenchy you are living beyond your means!!
First I believe the credit union is going to refinace my loan for me.. My wife spoke to them yesterday and the informal answer was yes.. The terms of the loan sound very promising..
Yes I am aware that lower priced properties are a hot market now.. According to the credit union they have been listing lower priced homes for one day and get as many as 12 offers. All above the asking price..
That market softens at the 1/4 of a million mark where homes are taking 120 days or more to sell. Average length of time to sell homes in my price bracket is 600+ days..
Why should I liquidate materials that I will be needing? Or give away cars I've owned for 50 years?
You need to stop thinking that I will always be unemployed.. I've been fired pretty close to a dozen times in my life. Some times it's only hours before my network has found me a better job.. One time it was 3 years.. So many alternate plans are a requirement of my profession.. It's like you guys looking for your next job..
Living beyond my means with millions worth of equity and assests?
You can lead a horse to water....
No body puts Frenchy in a corner!!!!!
He's already in a box with the lid closing, just a little bit of light left, he don't realize it yet.
Why don't you list it on a for sale by owner site and see what offers you can get. That will probably cost you $50, which is 20% of your equity if you only have $250.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Why are you so anxious for me to sell?
Not anxious, just offering a suggestion.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
124143.122 in reply to 124143.121
Why are you so anxious for me to sell?Got to tell you what I am feeling.My only motivation in speaking to you is your situation as described by you is like watching an accident about to unfold but people around you see it coming and want to stop it. You do not think or want to admit you are about to be in a tight spot with few options.I do not want to come here and read that you lost everything. This downturn can easily take you down with it. If this house has value, now is the time to get what does exist of it. If the value you can extract is near what you say it is, you could sell and with your barn full of lumber do another project on a scale you could finish. If employment returns, It probably will be vastly different from what you had the last seven years of your life. You are 61, I have been reading about your house for years now and find you an interesting character. I remember your high mileage truck and how you find great deals on fine materials. If you write about it to people who generally give a dam about their fellow man, expect to get unsolicited advice---you always give your two cents worth to who ever will listen. You will not have the working life left to make all of this up.Winners survive to fight another day. I am worried about you.
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.Nobody is as good as they seem, nobody is as bad as they seem either.
That was a good post. Some good people here. Guess I just wanted to say, Thanks for caring!
BTW, Frenchy has cars he could sell too!
Who moved the cheese?View Image bakersfieldremodel.com
Who moved the cheese?
ROAR!
Well as I've said I don't want to lose everything I've worked my whole life for either. Employment is my best solution however I have several other viable options should I ever fall behind in my payments.
That's the important Key. I am currant with my payments.
So at a minimum I probably have a year or more before they can actually take it away..
I originally thought I could last untill November but recent developments put it closer to Oct before I fall behind.. I'll keep looking.. first for employment and ultimately for alternatives..
Selling isn't very high on that consideration for the reasons I've given..
Pre planning.. it's something I'm very good at..
After reading all of this I finally have to add my two cents worth. Have you ever heard of age discrimination? I am no young buck myself and I realize that your job chances start to decline at 40. When the employment picture begins to brighten, younger workers with some experience and credentials will be the first hired.
At 61 most men are either retired or very close to retirement. No matter how energenic you are or how great your credentials, the interviewer is thinking in the back of his head about how much longer you can or will be able to work. Sure, in the last 10 years more and more older people are being hired in the work force. But they are greeters at Wal Mart or sweeping the floors at McDonalds.
I wish you well, but if I was 61 and needing more than a minimum wage job I would be beyond terrified.
Well youre certainly a box of joy arent ya ? .
Sure, in the last 10 years more and more older people are being hired in the work force. But they are greeters at Wal Mart or sweeping the floors at McDonalds.
Yup. And that's cause they're on Medicare and so health insurance isn't a major issue for them or the employer.
There is no age discrimination in the world of sales. Either you can sell or you can't. And if you can sell you're never long out of work. Companies bend over backwards for a great salesmen/woman. Show them the numbers and you get to make up your own rules.
People are still buying and salesmen are still being hired everyday. Vic
if I was 61 and needing more than a minimum wage job I would be beyond terrified
If I was 61 with current CV, could get about any job I wanted in my field....But if it were purely physical job, forget even asking <G> (DW would not let me buy a set of climbing spikes at garage sale last week, said I just spend a few days in the hospital as a result)
Know guys that are over 70 need to turn down jobs on a regular basis......
Of course if I were 25 yo WITH CURRENT CV, would probably have unlimited opportunities......
Wanted! Partner to help liquidate.
"Right now I have 1800 sq.ft. piled to the 9 foot ceiling down in my shop of wood, Equipment, tools, cars, and parts. You have to walk sideways to get through. Some whole corners are totally jammmed. How would you have me dispose of those near priceless burl planks 22 inches wide and 10 feet long? What about the bar top of solid piece of 26 inch wide 2 1/2 inches thick 10 feet long black walnut plank? over 10,000 bd.ft. of flawless white hard maple. Planks over 19 feet long and up to 14 inches wide?"
I figure we can dress in uniform, bring a semi-truck moving van, back it right up to the door and the neighbors won't even be suspicious.
All we need now is a sure fire way to get Frenchy out of the house. Maybe we could post a lead to a sales job in his area.
HootOwl, yer a Hoot!
Edited 9/15/2009 12:40 pm ET by rez
HootOwl, yer a Hoot!>>>>>
Seemed appropriate to me.
<wink>
You forgot about the 150 pound scary looking dog! (want a picture? 94390.1)
That the one with the clipped nails so he won't scratch the shellac floor?
REZ,
He never has and never will clip his nails.. (nor let anyone clip them for him) I'm pretty strong but there is absolutely no way I could hold him or keep him from taking off..
How is selling quitting or being a loser? Makes no sense.
Seems like it would be smarter to recognize a potential loss and sell before losing it all, but what do I know.
Does one wait until all options are exhausted... and then try to sell, hoping to get full price and not being taken advantage of by the buyer that has the money, knowing the seller has nothing left? Will a home of such uniqueness sell quickly to someone that appreciates it, or will it be simply bulldozed, priceless burl and all, to make room for a big monstrosity?
All that wood in your shop is worthless unless you use it for yourself or establish a realistic value. If it is jammed floor to ceiling, how do you know that some bugs aren't making a really nice dinner in your wood right now? If you die tomorrow, does anyone in your family know that the wood you have piled up is not the same as a stack of common 2 x 4's?
Do you have some type of fire protection system in place to protect your "priceless" stash... or your really nice and irreplaceable home? If not, you are a fool... or it isn't really worth that much. Oh, that's right, sprinklers/CO2 is expensive... the heads are ugly... the water damage.... whatever.
I have been out of work for 9 months. Close friends have filed bankruptcy. Others are really close to foreclosure. I don't live in a multimillion dollar home (it's not even multi hundred thousand)... have some really nice classic cars or a shop full of "priceless" lumber.
What I have done is stopped clinging to the field I have 15 years of experience, training and certifications in and moved on, unlike some of my buddies that still wait for that job... waiting in a union environment where the only people working are in The Network.
I have found that there is a lot of drywall repair, painting and other smaller projects out there that people do not want to do for themselves. Sometimes, the work is good... sometimes it isn't. Sometimes, a small project turns into a big one. Lots of people trying to feast on a dwindling number of full plates on the table, forgetting about the scraps. Those scraps are keeping the roof over my head and food on my table. I really don't want to follow the path of some of my buddies.
Maybe you should try looking past the full plates on the table and look at the scraps. Could be some good eating there.
Sometimes being stubborn is nothing more or less than being stupid. Hard to tell the difference sometimes.
Nobody has ever accuse me of being stupid.. Not once in my life!
Why assume you have better answers than I do? From your limited perspective selling might be a viable option.. however, I understand completely all of my options..
Since I am still currant with house payments and will be at least through Oct.. I do have time not to panic.. Selling now would be foolish.. In July home values crept up for the first time in over 2 years.. granted only 3% but never the less gained value.. priliminary numbers indicate August will be better.
Speaking with realitors the bottom feeders are out there looking for the last of the fantastic deals and actaully paying near value in some cases..
Timing too means a lot.. Fall traditionally is a lousy time to sell. Kids are in school and parents don't want to disrupt them. We have holloween , thanksgiving, Christmas and new years to distract the population from getting out and buying..
I bought both of my properties just before Holloween. a traditionally low time of the year for home values.. The best months to sell are Feb through May. That way closing will occur during the summer and move in won't disrupt the kds school. Besides when it's early spring the Lookeee Loos are out in force.. That's also when the apple trees are in full bloom and the house is looking good!
It's also when the doom and gloom should be mostly over and people will be out looking.
I've also completely accepted the fact that I won't be rehired in the field I have more than 30 years of experiance in.. Selling material handling, Telehandlers and other construction equipment..
That does not mean I won't be a valuable pickup for a sales staff. My resume alone indicates otherwise..
Once companies start hiring salesmen I should be among the first picked up..
The source I have used for sales positions used to have 12-15,000 new sales jobs a weeek listed.. last week they had 206 nationwide..
I suspect that's going to be their low point..
One other relavant bit.. The H1N1 Virus is making a major come back this fall. 600+ people in Minnesota alone have been hospitialized with those symptoms in the past 2 weeks.. that does not count the thousands who have simply stayed home or been treated by family doctors..
It's expected to get far worse..
Many companies have pared down employment to a few attempting to do everything. Lose a couple of key people as demand increases and they will see that their only option is to rehire..
That bodes well for the future..
I never said I have all of the answers, nor do I know everything about your situation. I also didn't call you stupid. Go back and read it again. I did say there is a fine line between stubborn and stupid, and will add that I have crossed it from time to time. I try to avoid that now.
I do know that October is next month, unless you are referring to October of 2010. Fifteen days isn't a whole lot of time if the last couple of years have been unchanging. Yeah, past performance isn't indicative of future results... but.
I also have a pretty dam good resume, and zero hits over the last 9 months. Unfortunately for me, a well worn set of kneepads is not in my posession... so no good ole boy network for me.
Well considering most of my time for the last 2 decades has been selling to contracators.. The vast majority of them out of the trade.. My network is down to four people who I call on regularly to see what might be available.. (one just got laid off himself)
It's how a person gets his best job offers (networking) because someone who knows you can recommend you better than a cold call.
I do have a month + plus before my payment is even late. (paid the mortgage today)
I don't need a career, just a job will do for now but somehow I don't expect to be hired as a nurse or dentist.. I can barely turn a computer on or off so I won't be hired for that in the near future.. My pilots license expired 40 years ago so I don't expect the Airlines will hire me..
Sorry, I just went on the local newspaper looking for work..
Pickings are slim.. that also means buyers are slim..
Good news is that Banks will work with me even if I'm late on the payments.. There is a firm willing to loan me the payments untill I either sell the property or find employment.. (bruttle interest rates though..)
The union network I am familiar with is populated by backstabbers and other lowlifes. I do not fit into that mold... nor do the people I would call friends.
Not the same thing as a network of professionals.
Oh, we stab each other in the back it's just that we're polite when we do it and try not to get caught with the knife in our hand..
Actually I think we both have a view of grass greener on the other side of the fence..
I know more than a few carpenters and contractors I'd trust a whiole lot more than other salesmen or management..
> Nobody has ever accuse me of being stupid.. Not once in my life!I'm pretty sure several people here have done that (though the accusations have been veiled).
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
That does not mean I won't be a valuable pickup for a sales staff. My resume alone indicates otherwise..
Once companies start hiring salesmen I should be among the first picked up.. >>>>>>
All day I've faced a barren wasteWithout the taste of water, cool waterOld Dan and I with throats burned dryAnd souls that cry for waterCool, clear, water
Keep a movin', Dan, don't ya listen to him DanHe's the devil, not a manHe spreads the burning sand with waterDan, can ya see that big, green treeWhere the water's runnin' freeAnd it's waitin' there for me and you?
The night's are cool and I'm a foolEach star's a pool of waterCool water
But with the dawn I'll wake and yawnAnd carry on to waterWater, water, water
Keep a-movin', Dan, don't ya listen to him, DanHe's the devil, not a manHe spreads the burning sand with waterDan, can ya see that big, green treeWhere the water's runnin' freeAnd it's waitin' there for me and you?Cool, clear, waterCool, clear, waterCool, clear, water
- Bob Nolan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBx8j2IKpcQ
Edited 9/15/2009 12:37 pm ET by HootOwl
One other relavant bit.. The H1N1 Virus is making a major come back this fall. 600+ people in Minnesota alone have been hospitialized with those symptoms in the past 2 weeks.. that does not count the thousands who have simply stayed home or been treated by family doctors..
It's expected to get far worse..
Many companies have pared down employment to a few attempting to do everything. Lose a couple of key people as demand increases and they will see that their only option is to rehire..
That bodes well for the future..
Frenchy, does your wife know what to do with all your priceless stuff if the pig flu gets you?
It seems to strike those who aren't in good health which is how you describe yourself.
Might want to rethink this idea?
Joe H
Edited 9/17/2009 1:08 am by JoeH
My wife doesn't have a clue..
Now please ask me if I have plans.
Answer is yes.. I've had most of my adult life..
I'm absolutely sure that my wife will be well taken care of even if I die as I type this..
Just for information, apparently those who are old enough to have gotten the Polio shot, the original one that left a round scar in your upper arm have developed a sort of immunity to the H1N1. Not as a result of the polio shot but we're apprently old enough to have developed immunity to a variant of the H1N1 that younger people don't have..
I also have a decade or 2 before old age will make me vulnerable to complications from flu That cause so many older people die off..
Edited 9/17/2009 8:34 am ET by frenchy
Here's the ad she'll run in craigslist:"Free wood. Bring a trailer. I'll help you load it."
Cruel, Jim, cruel.
Joe H
you are wrong as usual.
ROAR!!! That was pretty good! DanT
Here's the ad she'll run in craigslist:
"Free wood. Bring a trailer. I'll help you load it."
I actually think DW is practical enough that she just have one of the kids or grandkids fire up a dozer, push all nobody wanted into a pile, and pay the $1K fine for open burning <G>
Actually, I'd probably chop it into nice fireplace chunks and enjoy a fire or two with my dog.
"Free wood. Bring a trailer. I'll help you load it."
Turning into a fun thread if Frenchy takes it as such (maybe not)?
I gots first dibs Fenchy, tell your wife, even thoug I gots a 1K mile drive.....<G>
Hey, do we all us hoarders ( I prefer 'strategic reserves") got an infectious disease ? At least it dont choose between politics. <GGGG>
you could build an awesome walnut burl and sip casket.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"If Brains was lard, you couldn't grease much of a pan"Jed Clampitt
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"you could build an awesome walnut burl and sip casket."
ouch.
Work for the greatest vital intensity - the greatest solidity and aesthetic reality. Finally, eleminate everything non-essential. Reduce to the absolute essence. ~ F.C. Trucksess
She could start an auto parts business too.
Sorry Guys.. My best friend and buddy (he as best man at my wedding, I was at his) Has not only the ability to but actaully has done this already for one of his friends.
I was surprised at not only his tenacity to get the best prices but to hold out for years trying to get the price his buddy put on everything.. (significantly above market)
He ultimately did and his buddies widow lived for almost a decade on the money he earned for her..
Based on his experiance (and several serious buyers already lined up for some of my goods) It's likely that my wife will have enough to pay off the mortgage..
What else do you have stashed besides that firewood and car lot?
Hey!! It's not polite to ask about a homie's stash!
As I stood before the gates I realized that I never want to be as certain about anything as were the people who built this place. --Rabbi Sheila Peltz, on her visit to Auschwitz
I was thinking of alternate uses for the cars. Planters maybe?
you could triple or quadruple it
Pretty sure I could sell my place for more than 100X what I paid for it 38 years ago.
So what, what can do you do with money except give it away when you are a genetically inhibited spender <G>. Could run for public office to be able to skim some off the top of everybody else and give it away. ???
"It just sucks. And there is no one to blame."
No truer words. Well put.
Sailboats = owners
Owners of sailboats usually have extra cash (usually).
Saiboats need repairs/renovations.
Seems to be a match made for retirement.
be Bahamas bound
A La Carte Government funding... the real democracy.
Cruised earlier on. The cruising crowd on average, is on a shoe string. The one time in my life I worked for food and beer, fixing boats. Hmmmm, let me think, all is not lost.
One thing that occurred to me after I posted earlier: I've gotten involved recently helping a friend build a 7.000 sq. ft. shop out of surplus shipping containers. I'm also helping an old friend and her husband purchase and install a container on some bare property in Hawaii.
Here's the opportunity: Since the US is currently importing much more than we're exporting, empty shipping containers are becoming a real deal and, since they're very heavily built and durable and water tight, they make excellent storage facilities, modular components for shops, homes and even shopping malls.
Do google search "surplus shipping containers" and you'll get a better picture. Bob Vila even has a video on them (typically short on substance) but there are archy/construction firms doing some pretty incredible things with them.
In our case (on the shop) we're stacking them 2 containers high X 2 wide in the center with roof spans of 20' and 40' to two more double stacks. All you need to place them is a heavy concrete footing at each end with a weldment plate to attach them or a cable tie-down buried in the 'crete.
We'll weld vertical plates on the roof truss layout and, in our case, install pole barn gable trusses secured with thru-bolts.
We'll use a plasma cutter to cut door and window openings and stairwells. You can attach furring strips to the exterior if you want wood or F/C siding or whatever.
The containers are cheap: My friend paid $3500 each for 53 footers and the hawaiian project is hoping to start with a single 20 footer that's costing $1200 FOB Hilo.
If you can round up a partner or a backer, it could be a good sideline for you, especially if you're boat is moored close to a port where the trucking cost to a site would be minimal.
The actual set-up and construction modifications are pretty simple. Other than the small concrete project and a small crane to set them, it doesn't take much, if any, crew to do the modifications.
Here's a good site for developments about container building. Any photos?
http://www.fabprefab.com/fabfiles/containerbayhome.htm
My computer is currently limping along in "Safe" mode. I have a few skimpy photos that I've been unable to post for you here so I sent them to one of the more notorious members here to forward them to you.
Otherwise, send me your email address through the forum and I'll shoot them to you.
done . . . glad to see you back
(hope the photos aren't of you) ;)
Interesting thread.
Had a very brief conversation with Mike at the fest regarding my decision in '77 or so to NOT go into building houses, but keep my day job.
Would have been some good years in there, but hindsight on property values inPNW would have given me heartburn along with more $$, mostly from appreciation or speculation on property vs. labor.
As it is, DW and I still drive > 20 YO cars and live on <10K a year (out of old habits and genetics both) not counting charity and taxes, so retirement would be no problem even on SS and paying property taxes.
My work maybe has been just the opposite of what it would have been if i'da taken the construction route in '77, have never been busier, but need to travel close to 30-40% of the time. Was going to retire 7 years ago, but the problems to solve just keep coming, and interesting problems, and the pay keeps coming in and pension value even still increasing.
Threads like this are probably good for young guys to peruse, see what path they want to take, observe options and results. Lotsa forks in the road, gotta figure out which one to pick up to eat with. Advise to GKs is do something you can do better than almost anyone else (and that you enjoy) may be a good starting point.
Threads like this are probably good for young guys to peruse, see what path they want to take, observe options and results. Lotsa forks in the road, gotta figure out which one to pick up to eat with. Advise to GKs is do something you can do better than almost anyone else (and that you enjoy) may be a good starting point.
When I decided to pack it in, I was making money, but not enough to cover my ever rising family health care costs AND grow the business. The family health issues HAD to be addressed.
I thought my dad would be disappointed when I told him...........he wasn't. Secretly, I think he was relieved.
robert,
One of the comments you have often made in a thread like this is "don't ride it (this trade/business) into the ground." It'd be great if there was a different ride, but that one hasn't popped up yet.
So although the bills and overhead is all current, and there is still money in the bank, I put my shop up for sale a few weeks ago. Gonna try to free up the equity in it and look in other directions. I'll still keep the license and insurance, but I want to be able to jump if another opportunity presents itself. Don't know if it will sell or not, but we have had a couple people look at it and we have had one low offer who didn't take our counter. There is a form of blessed relief seeing the "for sale" sign by the driveway, knowing we are taking steps to be free of what this trade/business has become.
As things slowed down, I doubled my marketing output. still got to the point of fighting for a lot of jobs. but now it seems we are not just fighting with the gloves off, we need to bring a switchblade and brass knuckles to every fight. That's not me, and I am tired of it. Could we hold out? Probably, but where does that get us in the end? One of my mentors retired in his mid-fifties. over coffee one day I asked him what he would have done differently. I expected an answer like "....gotten a computer sooner..." or ".......Invested in a different piece of equipment...."
His answer took me by surprise. without hesitation he said, " #1 I would have spent more time with my kids. And #2 I would have taken better care of myself financially." It just doesn't seem working hard and hoping things will turn is a viable plan for either of his answers.
Bowz
I'm sorry to hear you're closing shop. I recall a discussion about sales where i read what you wrote and thought "there's one of the few not blowing smoke".
Splintie,
Not exactly "closing shop", but more like taking a look at what direction life and the industry is headed. The ending of Robert's line has usually been "....so that when it comes back again, you have the resources to come back at it...." I am shifting gears to preserve and enhance the war chest of funds, and perhaps look at something else to do. Hey, when I was in high school the counselor always said we may have as many as 5 careers before we retire. I've been with this one for a little over twenty-five years, and it's only the first one. I guess I am just saying that now is the time to explore, rather than chewing my fingernails up to the second knuckle wondering what the future holds.
One of the other biggies is that my wife and I live in seperate locations during the school year as she teaches in northern Wisconsin now and loves it. We are starting the fourth year of living like this and I would like to explore some other options up there, and not have to be Johnny-on-the-spot every time the phone rings here.
Yeah, I remember the sales thread from a few years ago, and the examples I gave were real ones from real jobs. Bigger picture now is "What would it be like if I applied some of the stuff I've learned in a different direction?????"
Oh, and one other point from the sales thread: we ended up with a Springer Spaniel from a rescue group, rather than a dachshund, or a Viszla.
Bowz
<<I am shifting gears to preserve and enhance the war chest of funds, and perhaps look at something else to do.>>As you say, the skills learned in one craft are transferable. I loved my art fair business, but i stopped doing shows in 2003 bec sales had plummeted by 30% in the last two years. Though the gallery end was still strong and i kept it up for awhile, it wasn't the same charge i got out of retail sales and the carnival life. It looks like you've also figured out when to step off the bull, as my Brahma-riding daddy used to say. I seem to have a bit more of the artist's genetics in me than the businesswoman's, but i still managed to buy three houses outright on my art fair winnings and live off the rental income, then sell when the price was still high. Good luck was certainly part of my timing it right, but my buying a house no one else could afford to fix, then fixing it, was a skill transferred from making a living for 23 years at a job no one else would consider to be more than a hobby. Seeing possibility where none exists is a skill as-much-as/more-than cutting a roof.Luckily, i got fired three times in my 20s from various jobs - who gets fired from being a snack bar hostess, or working for the county!?!?! - to prove to me i'm wasn't and never will be employee material.I'm doing my happy dance over your rescuing a pound puppy. It's a good thing this isn't visual media, eh?
It's a good thing this isn't visual media, eh?
I dunno. I still have your description of fitting yourself for a bra burned in my brain :-)
buying a house no one else could afford to fix, then fixing it
And there is one of the keys. 'cept mine was one nobody wanted to fix. Bought for $25K and fixed to the point we could leverage the equity to buy the shop and land for $35K. Then unexpectedly being able to buy the 20 acres and house behind the shop for $168K. Selling the fixer upper for $73K, then selling the other house and 1.3 acres for $160K, ( so our 18 acres of woods cost us $8K) and building a small new house on the remaining land, and keeping the shop. Now if the shop sells, we can burn the mortgage on this house, build a good sized garage here, and have more cushion in the bank.
Can't think that I ever got fired. More like quit 4 different jobs thinking "it's gotta get better than this". The well run Mike Smith type companies are few and far between, so I went on my own. And that is how so many start out, and stay in that same spot the rest of their working lives. That's part of what Robert is talking about, tradesman being their worst enemies.
I was thinking of this analogy today while hauling concrete blocks for next weeks project: There is a story about hunting monkeys in Africa. How the natives hollow out a gourd, and put a banana in it, and tie a string to the gourd, then hide in the brush. When the monkey reaches in to grab the banana, he can't get his hand out. But he wants that banana so bad he will hold onto it as the hunter reels the line in, and then smacks him on the head. That is soooooooo like many of the contractors i have talked with. we just don't want to let go of the banana, and life reels us in and smacks us on the head.
The successful remodelers I have talked with, and learned a little from, see the same banana. But rather than go and grab it, they first take a stick and whack the hunter, or cut the string. (This whacking and cutting would be known as people skills, and business skills) LOL! Or in Blue's case he hires out the whacking and the cutting!!
Lots more discussion fodder in this thread, but I gotta pack and head up north to see the family, and Ginger the Springer.
Bowz
We both love a good analogy. I once did something i've never done before, which was think there are actually bananas with no strings attached. At least i made the divorce painful for him...Ginger...Welsh Springer or another type? I rescued a Welsh Springer i called Chester...what a funny, snotty dog he was, despite his horrendous treatment for the first three years of it. He died in winter, so i packed him up into the hills where i placed his body to join with Nature again. I've had a couple other pets i've done similar for, so not it's "our" spot to pause and reflect. Pets sure can teach us a lot about not holding on too long...and fresh starts. ;^)
Ginger is a English Springer Spaniel. we got her from a rescue group in Southern Michigan. Seems the first owner just kept her tied up outside even in winter. So a neighbor took the dog and gave it to the rescue people. First placement was with a household that had another Springer and the two dogs fought a lot. So the rescue people took her back in, and cleaned her up. We got her after that, and she is not socialized very well with other dogs, but is unbelievably active and friendly with her new packmates, (us).
We had also tried a miniature pincer that was older and partially arthritic, but it nipped at my daughter and lightly bit my wife. So that one got sent back.
Yeah, we have a pet cemetary out behind the pond. There is the rabbit that died after falling out of the cage, my parents old cat they had put down, and the guinea pig that was my 7 year olds birthday present that Ginger used as a chew toy after DW left the daughter's bedroom door open by mistake.
In putting the shop up for sale, and thinking about selling this house, I remember the comment, "Don't love anything that can't love you back". Property is just that; no ability to love you back. A retired multi-millionaire contractor once told me that, "I've got more money than I can reasonably spend, but you know when I got cancer, and was laying in the hospital, not a single hundred dollar bill jumped out of my wallet and gave me a hug or any support. So be careful what you get yourself attached to."
Bowz
Part of this thread has been about "hard knocks" version of construction.
My family I was raised with knew poor and some wealth as the years went on. By the time I graduated high school times were good . That went on for years and then Dad had a heart attack and open heart surgery. I followed the same path of health.
I wasnt around when my family was starving before I was born but I remember one thing all the sons of my father were proud of, was when dad went down after surgery in constrction. That ended construction for him. He had an 8th grade education and bills comming in. Thats sorta like the way it is now with a high school education. My wife lost her job 2 years ago running a plant with a high school diploma and hard experience . The jobs she has been applying for require a college degree. You dont get past it because they wont interview.
He had us boys bring his tools home and build a shop from the lumber yard he was shutting down. He was selling lots and other things . He got enough money together and bought a new van cash. He started running things like flower pots , holders, curio shelves and wood buckets in his shop. We are thinking hes crazy by this time . I remember dropping by for coffee which became a thing to get to see him. Id stay 15 to 30 minutes and on with my day. He would say Ive got an order for 25 buckets so Im gonna go ahead and run 400. I said why? He said well if that flower shop can sell 25 wood buckets for flower holders, then I can sell to the rest of them to the others. He set up a route knowing all the flower shops along the way. He packed up 425 buckets in his van and slept in a state park that had showers. This became every week. Finaly he had built a mfg business . He ran that from home after he hired route drivers and helpers to man the saws .
He had trouble with help on the road ripping him off cause the flower shops paid cash. He got upset and quit the business instead of selling it . He was mad at the time .
He did the same thing with fruit . Before we knew it he owned a farmers market . I bought that from him when he got sicker .
Back at home after another attack , he was back in the shop building cedar chests starting all over again. I stopped in for coffee . He was building a load to go to texas to the biggest flea market in the world. He was in the first ones to get in the flea market craze. He hauled a load of fruit back. That started with the van and ended with a ton truck and a 28 ft gooseneck enclosed trailer . He had done it again.
I was having trouble getting peanuts at the market . He unloaded the trailer and went to New Mexico and loaded up. They are light enough you can load a 28 ft trailer to the ceiling . He became a peanut hauler in season. He hauled from the Arkansas tomato harvest . He hauled apples from MO. He hauled potatoes from Idaho. On and on but he had done it yet again. He had built a small one man trucking business when he wasnt able to walk a 1/4 mile or work manually for over 2 hrs.
Tim
Tim, your dad's example is kind-of what is floating through my mind, but why wait for the heart attack? He was successful at what he tried because of what he learned about people and business during his time working construction. When the construction went away, he still had the people skills and business knowledge.
so maybe the original poster needs to look at his entire skill set, and how they could be applied anywhere, not just in construction. one option I've looked at is returning to school. When I talked with a counselor, (who had hired and fired hundreds, or maybe thousands of people when he worked in HR at a big local corporation), I pointed out how not having worked for someone for 18 years would be a problem getting hired. His point of view was dead opposite. He said they loved to hire people who had been self-employed for longer than 5 years as it showed the ability to work independently, and a degree of self-motivation. "That's the stuff no degree can teach and no resume' can show, but your history shows it." If he hadn't pointed that out, I'd still have the tunnel vision of "....nobody wants to hire the formerly self-employed..."
Bowz
Ive thought a lot about what he did . Id like to think Ive learned from it as well but I havent practiced it . Theres been a time or two in my young adult life I would do things kinda like that for fun.
I learned you can take a bath with 3 gallons of water . You can eat for a week off a 99 cent package of pinto beans .
Ill admit he was a different breed than Ive met . We used to build a house up in the mountains and we would camp. It was a work camp as he used to work for a goverment camp. CC Camps he called it . They built roads here . He built rock supported bridges and signs. They lived all week in a work camp and went home on weekends. He would have been a good trail drive cowboy in the old days . He could stay on site for a three day flea market . Doing things other people arent willing to do.
I bought a cabin for 9 grand and fixed it up. I bought an acre at goverement auction for 775.00 in the mountains . My father bought 350 acres with the money I gave him for the flea market and he also lived there . Im not proud of this story but it was his choice not mine . After he bought the land he drilled a well and built a 8x12 storage building . He put power to it and finished the inside into a cabin. It resembled an rv inside but it sat on the ground . My brother was very upset . The oldest one . He put some scrap black board on the out side that wouldnt sell at the yard . So he took 30lb felt and covered the exterior to stop air leaks . Thats where he died . My brother was always upset that he died in a "tar paper shack". That might not mean any thing to you . Here in hillbilly country Ive seen families raised under a tarpaper shack. They normally have used barn metal on the roof and the out side studs are covered in tar paper . While he was in much better shape than that it was still a storage building covered in tarpaper . He had a house slab ready to pour and had a barn built. He was milling trees . He wasnt gonna stay in that shack but he wasnt gonna live off site building a house either .
If I had known what he was gona do with the money I wouldnt have bought the market . He had an easiar life there. There was no telling what he would do.
He never put his family in a tarpaper shack but we lived on site to some pretty bad places we fixed up and sold . We did three farms with old houses on them. Ive drawn water on a chain and used an out house working on some old farm house and lay out a bed roll in lots of places as a kid . I spend a winter sleeping in a hay barn with cousins . That was fun though. He always said a van is a good camping work vehicle . Him and his brother laid all the brick on a school up in the mountains and camped the whole time . The cousins were out of school so we worked and camped too. We went swimming every evening with a bar of ivory soap. YOu never loose a bar of Ivory in a creek. Then cut a water melon. It was a blast .
It doesnt take very much to live like that .
Ivory soap is expensive nowadays!
I own some property on a lake. One of the deed restrictions is: no tarpaper shacks built for less than $600. The original deed also prohibited the sale to Negros. That clause was stricken when they sold to me.
"Ivory soap is expensive nowadays!"
If yer taken a bath in a creek that you cant see the bottom Ivory is cheaper. <G>
I remember bathing in a strip pit which is water in a cannal left from coal minning . The water was so hard that the ivory would just float around and bubble . The bubbles would make it keep moving . That was one of my first wonders to witness.
I knew an old carp like you would know what a tar paper shack was .
I asked my Dad about it years ago. He said theres a lot of versions of tar paper shacks . But its always been the cheapest shelter and people have used it in these parts. It wasnt used for the prevention of air inflitration to start with. <G> It was to keep your arse dry and break wind .
Sense then the blue tarp has all but replaced it when theres no money for shelter. DW and I gave to 5 families at Christmas all in blue tarp shelters. We came out and visited the families and gave the kids gifts . The feeling I had when I left was I didnt find or leave any thing sad on their faces. That stuck more with me than anything . The kids looked happy and why not ? Kinda like a kid needing a dad but hes not moping around if he doesnt have one .
The other thing I thought about was what they had to eat . The father was working in every case so what else was there to buy? It seemed to be a pride thing otherwise they would be in goverment housing .
Ive been away thinking about this thread.
What would I do if I was out of luck and needed a buck?
Course it depends on how many bucks I had ,....
First thing Id want to live on a job site . Mine or someone elses. Id wanna live for free and get paid for living there one way or another which is a copy to Dad . He always owned the place but what ever. I would work in town so to speak and come home to eat sleep and work on the place . You would have to get ahead doing that . If ya got down just cut a water melon. <G> That always made every one happy.
"Ivory soap is expensive nowadays!I own some property on a lake. One of the deed restrictions is: no tarpaper shacks built for less than $600. The original deed also prohibited the sale to Negros. That clause was stricken when they sold to me."
Not that it matters, but I never knew your were of african descent Jim...lol
Edited 9/10/2009 9:11 am ET by jjf1
I'm a man of many wonders!
Tim,
A few days late but I wanted to come back to your posts.
It doesnt take very much to live like that .
I have an older couple as clients. they are in their 80's. The husbands dad was a contractor about a half hour north of here when the depression hit. Somewhere in the fight for survival, he was invited to build a church out in North Dakota. Left the family back here. Soon he had another church to build, and then another. My client "Bud", became the company accountant, and when he left the firm in the 80's they had built 104 churches in the Dakotas, and Montana.
When they weren't building churches they would buy some land and put up strip malls, then rented them out.
I built an addition for them in '99 and heard the stories of working out west. They'd do similar to your dad. Get a church to build, buy a little land and put up cabins to live in. often the only running water was the stuff going by in a creek. the wife was telling me these stories, and got kind-of misty and said those were some of the best times, living like that. " 'Course we wouldn't want to do it now."
Had to laugh about taking a bath in 3 gallons of water, 'cuz I think I needed about 4 when I did it a few years back. The house we bought with the land had an electric water heater and it was like fingernails on the chalkboard for me to use any hot water, when it was costing me 3 times as much to heat it as gas would have, even though the difference was probably measured in pennys.
It's a different mindset to be sure. Not real common around here, but up north, DW teaches in the second poorest county in the state, and that mindset is still active up there. But to be honest I find the people to be happier and more friendly, though I think you need to have a few generations there before you can claim the status of "local". LOL!
Interesting to read about your dad's woodworking business too. I tried a little bit of that earlier in the year, building a jig and press to make wooden snow skis. Imitation antiques for a couple of friends that take them and mount shot glasses to them and sell them to bars. I made a few, but the group got a better price and more volume from somebody else. Oh well. I've got a half scale half finished casket built too. Had another friend that thought he could sell caskets like the one my BIL and I built for MIL last year. I told him I didn't want to run another business at this time, but if he wanted to sell them, I would build them. Waited for him to try making some contacts for a while, then called a past client who is a mortician and talked funeral business.
Eh...maybe an existence could be scratched out of retailing caskets directly, but I ain't gonna do it.
Bowz
Evidently he had a gift . Honestly we thought he was part crazy. He looked like he was gambling to me . Watching him he always would "work" out of a jam. He was a dreamer but he could live the dream. Not many people can live their dreams . Good thing he didnt dream real big. <G>
Anyway he taught me how to live in this business and work it . Now days the first problem is a wife to follow . I would think most would not . Take on a farm and fix it up while you lived in it .
Things are even easiar today than they were then. You can buy a pretty decent camper to live in for 2500 bucks . Not that its living but its not bad working on a job site . Ive done quite a bit of that doing commercial work. My oldest brother lived in a camper for 20 years during the week . He taught me that you dont have to go with out work. Just move to where it is and work and then its up to you . Drive back and forth on weekends or move there . Ive been so far out I didnt get home but a week a month or so. Thats one of the nice things about this business . Normally I could work a 300 mile radius with out problems. Thats not near as hard as what dad did or your wife. I put 10 grand in a year old camper that had sold for 17,000. I could work on any job they sent me to. I missed family but as far as being comfortbale I was just as much as at home . I had a tv, radio, and read a lot . I loaded the cabinets and fridge with every thing I could think I might want . I like that a lot better than motels . You dont have every thing you need in a motel. People think a motel is nicer but not me . Ive tried both. You would not believe how many things you forgot staying in a motel. Finger nail clippers , etc. Then the food and drink cache.
He looked like he was gambling to me
One man's gamble is another man's risk management.
One of the things that got me to thinking about applying stuff I've learned in a different direction was the logging and forestry class I mentioned about a year ago. By the end we were down to six students and the instructor. Because of the small class size i think we ended up getting a better look at a couple different versions of the business end of things. Same types of people as in construction making the same mistakes. Another guy in the class was an excavator and we had fun working over the different numbers that people told us.
We looked at a few related businesses too. One guy had worked at a cabinet shop, then started his own small shop. He built a log stairway sample for a friend to take to a home show in Milwaukee. At the show, some woman wanted to know if he could build a log bed. He said sure. Then she wanted to know how much 25 beds would cost. After delivering the 25 beds they wanted 400 beds and nightstands and dressers. She was part of a group building a series of rustic hotels and waterparks. So this guy tooled up and built all the furniture for these places and shut down the cabinet end of things. The group is no longer building hotels, but the cabinet guy has made enough to retire at 57.
The biggest operation we looked at travels up to 300 miles from their home base and camps in trailers like you did. they run a couple of half-million dollar harvesters and need large stands of timber to cut. Most other operations were small and local. One of the coolest things was getting to cut trees with their harvester for about 45 minutes. But I wouldn't want the stress of making the $15,000 per month payments on the equipment!! Imagine how fast they go bankrupt when the paper mills no longer need to buy any pulpwood. the guy we talked with said the first three years he had his machine he worked 7 days a week to get it paid off, so when pulpwood prices dropped he could weather the storm.
One of the foresters/wood buyers said the worst day of his life was when he had to tell a couple of operators that the mill couldn't buy their wood anymore. He had helped them to grow, and expand, but they didn't have their machines paid for when the mill was sold and the new owners cut everything back. Essentially he knew he had to tell them the mill was going to bankrupt them, because they had no other outlets to unload the wood.
It got me to thinking about having too many eggs in one basket, and looking at what else can I do. This whole construction crash is like being a mechanic for the Hindenburg, watching it blow up, and thinking, "Do I really want to wait around for somebody to fix this? maybe I'll stay, maybe I'll go."
Bowz
Nice story thanks .
I was in Oklahoma working around a race track. Salisaw. 20 miles outta FT Smith. 80 miles from home . I went up there for a contractor building apartments to provide housing for the track. I had 48 units to finish drywall. I found the local coffee shop . I was in there every morning having breakfast . I had signs on my truck . This guy came in looking for me and I wasnt hard to find wearing whites. He sat down and wanted me to buy supplies . He had opened a drywall supply just getting off the ground . I asked if he knew what was going on around the little city. He knew every thing . He sent me out to talk to a guy building motels around the track. Then to a school. Then to a mall. Malls make me excited theres so much rock and I make money off volume . I got the mall but I had 24 more apartments to start for the guy I was out there for . I didnt have the help. So the drywall guy set me on every taper he knew . I bought every thing from him and he wasnt the cheapest but he sure kept me busy. I worked there till I got tired of being away from home . I had rented an apartment hoping it would help my mind . It didnt .. I coulda stayed for a long long time . My town had nothing going on in comparison.
There used to be places like that scattered around that was boom building . Last I heard the casinos below you finally got caught up building but you know that lasted for 15 years didnt it ?
Tim
I pointed out how not having worked for someone for 18 years would be a problem getting hired
First thing that comes to mind is "You want me to do what?"
"Are you nuts"
After 30 years of working for Joe, can't imagine I'd take directions too well.
Joe H
does your wife know what to do with all your priceless stuff if the pig flu gets you
Heck yes, DW and the kids say they would haul off what they want, put a free sign out front for the rest, .....
use the $20K in a separate account to dump the rest......
... still priceless survival strategic reserve for me though <G>
His answer took me by surprise. without hesitation he said, " #1 I would have spent more time with my kids. And #2 I would have taken better care of myself financially." It just doesn't seem working hard and hoping things will turn is a viable plan for either of his answers.
My father and I have had a similar conversation.
I willingly admit to being a great carpenter, Good enough that 7 1/2 years after hanging my tools up full time and 5 after I stopped working part time for friends.................I just got a call yesterday for help framing a small roof addition that has the builder and his carpenter stumped................................................but I am a horrible businessman.
I LOVED the work. Still do. Always will. But it's times like these that bring out the truth. Just look back over the last 12 months at the number of posters here who have had to hang it up? And the number of them that admit that 20.......30..even 40 years in the business have amounted to little in the way of personal fortunes or stability.
My wife used to be, before nursing school, a Vet Tech at an animal hospital. Three years of very expensive school, an internship and a state license? Amounted to not much. With 10 years experience, and in a management position and responsible for ordering and scheduling...she was making less than she did her first year as aN RN at the local hospital.
The Major difference is that RN's have to take and pass a state board..............but Vet Techs? Well.............a Veteranarian can train his or her own. NO test or license required.........so in effect the license my wife worked so hard to get? Amounted to nothing. Sound familiar????????????
About the time we started talking about nursing school I read a article in one of her professional journals. The jist of the article was that most Veteranarian's retire BROKE because they treat their practices like..............ready for it.......................like tradesmen treat their businesses. Which is to say not very much like a business.
We're our own worst enemies...............and I'm not going to punish my family because of that.
I knew a guy who was an electronic tech who got laid off for awhile. He was living on a sailboat at the time, so he just took off for awhile.
He had the ability to fix electronics, had gear to work on rigging and carpentry skills. He picked up work while he was traveling working on other boats.
When it was time to go back to work, everyone else was trying to catch up and he came home with cash in his pocket.
I knew a cabinet maker who was between jobs and fixed up a boat for a relative.
Might be nice to work with your toes in the sand for awhile.
I was hanging out with my father, brother and brother-in-law yesterday.
My dad is 60. He's been in the construction business in one way or another since he was 17, minus a few years in the Navy.
He closed up shop some time ago and for at least the last 15 years he's worked at a company where he is the Old Grump who hasn't just read about it, he's actually done it. Because of that he's been treated very well by this company.
Last night I asked him how things were going. He's still got work but it's slowing down. They have a single project started right now.
When I asked him what he was going to do when they ran out of work? He said he just doesn't care anymore. He's sick of the trades and the business and the rollercoaster ride.
Few years ago he found some obscure paragraph in his states law that skips disabled Veterans and/or Combat Veterans to the top of the pile for things like Hot Dog cart vendor or Ice Cream cart Vendor Licenses.He can claim both if he wants to.
Says him and mom are gonna ditch the apartment and it's $4K a month worth of expenses, but a little house, sell Ice Cream at the beach 4 days a week all summer and ride his Harley around the warmer states all winter.
it sounds like the perfect situation for you would be living on your boat in a large affluent marina, fitting up yacht interiors. either working for the marina (and getting benefits) or straight up contracting
and/or, instead of flipping houses you could flip boats. I have seen some of those repo's come in. you can get them for a song and mostly what they need is cosmetic
with your skill set I would print up some cards aimed at custom cabinets for yacht interiors. everyone with a boat would like to modify something
Yeah, I can commiserate. I'm sitting here doing nothing since being laid off in Feb. Always figured I had marketable skills too (engineering/programming), but I'm finding that's not the case. And even the floor walker jobs at HD are hard to come by.
Have enough to get by, but not exactly live comfortably, so not ready to retire yet.
If my wife wasnt a nurse I dont know what we'd be doing. I couldnt even afford to go back to driving truck.
Its been a very discouraging year, but I try to remain positive and do what I can. We've missed a few bills and its getting old having less than $50 in my pocket at all times.
I'm trying to grow my real estate side of business while still promoting the Restoration & Renovation but its damn hard.
My advice to everyone is dont let this kill you, do what you can, and let whatever happens, happen.
I've never worried about making my house payment because something always comes up (so far), besides all worrying does is make us look older and get less sleep.
Good luck, now may be a good time to either build our skillsets or use what we have in new ways.
I write this to you and me because I know I need to keep evolving in what I do also.
Family.....They're always there when they need you.
Did you ever get over to that REIA meeting in Clawson yet to grow your real estate biz?
I've kinda wondered how the real estate biz is working in MI now. The rental market must be tough even though it would seem like it should be exploding. The prices of houses must be getting low enough to pick up some nice props in the bedroom communities.
It's really sad that so many decent tradespeople are caught in this endless roller coaster ride.
Low prices mean absolutely nothing if there are no jobs there to support a home and family..
I'm 64; 65 in October.
I never made a lot of money. Almost always self-employed, hated the times I had to take a job.
I've been a contractor for about 15 years, always small.
In Canada, Health insurance is something we don't worry about. Thank heavens!
My ad is running in the community papers, my web site is up, and my ad goes into Craigslist every 48 hours.
My phone just does not ring.
Last year I had one good sized job, and that money is still in the bank.
I need a new truck and DW needs a car. They have to wait.
My house is paid for and I have bought exactly 2 new tools in the last year - a Multimax for a job I needed to do, and a Planer (hellofabuy).
House is paid for. We still keep foster children in our home (enough income to cover the bills, lots more of just love), and I do a lot of work for my synagogue - and insist I get paid for it!
Covering my bum, and not a lot more, but with no pension, I have no choice.
Things will get better. I know they will.
And besides, in 50 years who will care?
Keep smil'n
Quality repairs for your home.
AaronR Construction
Vancouver, Canada
Your in good shape, I never would have guessed 64 i thought you were 56 like me.
At any rate my one boy took my Nissan truck cause he needs to get to work cheap. He gave me the 300 dollar jeep we bought for parts, I got her going and have been driving that. My 89 dodge needs a starter. I started thinking how come im driving a 300 dollar jeep ?. Then i figured no payments. I better thank GOD for the jeep i have to use.. Olebeachbum drove me to the fest. Thanks Bum.. He would not take gas money either.. I told him all my best jokes though. He ROCKS!!!!
I'm looking down the same road. I'm not as old as you, I'm 54, but am concerned, and know that if I'm going to make a move I should do it sooner than later. I'm not tired of all the work, I still get charged when I do high end finished stuff, fabricating, and decorative plastering. I want to keep on working 'till I'm old old, that's just who I am. I don't ever see myself on a lake fishing & snoozing my days away. I would like to think that will happen to a degree, but I gotta keep doing something till I drop and I may as well make $$.
We're almost out of Tuition City (2 more years) and with that, I am going to dump all available and extra $$ into retirement. Being self employed for the past 30 years I've only been so-so about saving for that and If I can get another 15-20 years of full work, that would be good. I have some, but not enough at this point. Also cutting waaaaay back and living a much more frugal lifestyle. DW has an excellent pension & hopefully we can enjoy our old age together.
Don't be sorry for the ramble, many in here, including myself really hear you. I think it's a good topic & maybe we can help one another with suggestions. Thanks.
I am just stepping into this conversation, but from what I can tell you're one lucky SOB and don't quite know it yet.
I have dreamed of being in such a situation.
My plan would be to take that boat down to the Caribbean. Hug the coast on your way down and maybe jump on a few ocean front projects along the way for extra cash. When you reach the island of your choice, get in touch with the harbor master or marina manager to let them know you are a carpenter. Talk to locals and find out where the construction is happening.
I have always informed my wife that the true beauty of being a carpenter is that I can be a carpenter anywhere and the skills are relative to many fields. Having a boat and carpentry skills makes you independent.
As a side note, my brother went on vacation in the keys last year and told me he met two bartenders who were married and lived on a boat. That's all the did and they would travel all over doing it. I would assume bartenders in vacation spots get very good tips.
So, maybe on the way to the Caribbean or between carpentry gigs, you and the wife study bartending or other high demand/high pay job... maybe boat engine/small engine repair or sailmaking.
Just some thoughts, good luck.
DC
other high demand/high pay job... maybe boat engine/small engine repair or sailmaking
Interesting comments, esp the last phrase posted above. A cousin and her husband are both retiring. She is brushing up on her French and Dutch so she can take a pilots exam (only given in French or Dutch) for a canal boat license. He is going to diesel mechanic votech (he was the Nasa principal for their telemetry stations, but never got into tractors) to be able to maintain the boat.
I wonder how long it will take them to become bored living on a boat?? I need at least a few acres of my own to roam around on in the evening.
Been there and done it Retired from one job at 59 to run my business full time. We averaged three home renovations a year plus smaller work, had a small home overlooking the hudson with my boat club just about two miles away. All I wanted ,work and fun was right there. Got tired of reactor alarms,poor help and high taxes and moved to Saratoga. What a mistake. No work and they have this place locked up tight as a c---s a--. Miss my boat the river and the captain license I was working on. Like you said all this talent and no place to use it.
I have my Master's ticket, that and $5 buys you a beer. To avoid taxes, you have to leave New York State. Problem is, there is little work anywhere you would want to live. Just picked up a small renovation, and am going to meet someone about an addition. So somethings are coming in, but didn't think the last of the working years would be the same scramble as when I first stated. Leaving on the boat again keeps looking more inviting all the time.