Replies

1. 
   constantin | Jul 21, 2005 04:09pm | #1

   Well, it looks as though 410A is becoming the refrigerant of choice in the NA market going forward. Yet, R22 will be around for a while and they may even come up with "drop-in" replacements like 407c as a means of keeping R22 units going after the phase out of R22 has begun. However, I am told that the 407c uses different oils and that the system has to be completely cleaned before a switch over is possible. Sounds expensive to me.

   So, I would look into the 410A unit. The price difference should be relatively small as the up-sizing of wall thicknesses to deal with the higher pressures that 410A entails should have a relatively minor impact on the price of the unit. However, who knows how much the manufacturers are still value-pricing their 410A versions... I'm not in the trade, after all.

   Lastly, if given a choice, I would focus less on the brand being installed and more on the quality of the installer. For example, the Amana Ultron from Goodman has a pretty interesting warranty, a 16 SEER rating, and probably costs a lot less for the materials than a comparable Trane unit. The installation cost should be the same.

1. 
   SCaseria | Jul 21, 2005 04:53pm | #2

   Yep, that Amana has a interesting warranty. And I'll look into that.But the reason we chose the installer we did was because of reputation, materials and cost. They did the most thorough evaluation (measuring living space, wall thickness, insulation type, window sizes, placement, etc.) The other 2 estimates just used square footage.They're installing a 3-ton 12 SEER Trane split system with a variable speed air handler for $9400 (including permits, electrical). We have a colonial with baseboard heat, so they are running the ducts from the attic through a few closets for the first floor, and directly into the second floor bedrooms.2 other estiamtes from installers we had we're: $10,300 for an Amstrong 13 SEER 410A system - single speed air handler, and $16,000 for an Armstrong 410A system with one airhandler in the basement for the first floor, and a second in the attic for the bedrooms (I didn't like this since it was way too much $$ and would take up headroom in the basement. Also, our biggest problem is humidity, not heat, so a variable speed air handler seems like what we need.So, it seems like we are getting better equipment for a better price, from people who have been in business forever doing this type of work. The fact that they were more thorough made a huge differnce in our decision – one of the other guys was in and out in 20 minutes and didn't even want to look in the attic! EDIT: Are we getting this price because it's the r22 equipment? Are manufacturers reducing the prices to make room for the 410A? Also, we may only be in this house for another 5-8 yearsBut I will look into the Amana. Do you have any personal experience with it?Edited 7/21/2005 9:56 am ET by 6milessouth

   Edited 7/21/2005 10:06 am ET by 6milessouth

1. 
   brownbagg | Jul 21, 2005 05:16pm | #3

   Most Hvac companies around here are independent that might be out of business in five years. a typical company is 2 or 3 guys. I would find the biggest company in town somebody with twenty paople. they will be in business when all the small companies go under. Then buy a 16 seer unit no matter what the price. In two year 22r will be out and the replacement gas will be more than a new unit . Oh, and i am a licence Hvac tech

1. 
   Sphere | Jul 21, 2005 05:23pm | #4

   I agree with a 16 seer, but is 22r really going away in as little as 2 yrs?

   Wow.  Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks

2. 
   SCaseria | Jul 21, 2005 05:38pm | #5

   Thank you, this reaffirms our choice. I stopped by our installers offices yesterday (another reason to choose them, they're local) and was impressed by it's size. Rows of desks with people typing away (accounting? secretaries?), offices, etc. It was an honest to goodness business!About the 16 seer, we are in Connecticut and wouldn't use the air as much as folks down south. I've heard the consensus for this area is that 13 is the cut off for efficiency vs. payback. I may never recoup my costs for buying such efficiency. For example, it was 80 in our home last night, but the humidity was low and we were comfortable (well, no one was complaining too much).Thanks for your input. So, I won't be able to service r22 in the near future? That's something to think about.

2. 
   constantin | Jul 21, 2005 09:26pm | #6

   Sounds to me like you did the right thing: Hire a contractor based on reputation and what they actually did for you (i.e. perform a honest-to-goodness heat gain calculation). I have no idea on pricing but it sounds to me like you're installing ductwork, etc. as well. Thus, it might pay to inquire just what it would be to have a 13 SEER 410A-based system. The marginal cost may be lower than you think.Also keep in mind that your local utility may pay you a nice rebate for going with the more efficient system, I'm getting something like $500 a unit, IIRC.Lastly, unless your attic is sealed and the roof insulated (either between the rafters or on the outside), pay very close attention to the sealing of all penetrations from the living space below and from the ductwork. AC systems are notorious for losing as much as 20% of the air volume in the ductwork due to leaks. Sealing joints with mastic (a.k.a. "pookie") is mandatory... and wrapping them with thick insulation in hot/cold attics is a very good idea also.

1. 
   SCaseria | Jul 21, 2005 10:05pm | #7

   Yes, I heard about the rebate, so maybe going up a little in efficiency might be the same cost. But why didn't the installer tell me that? Well, I guess he's got a better margin on certain units. Thanks for your input.