My crew began demo of my dad’s 8-month old house/deck (It was heavily damaged by Katrina) today. I had used ACQ-approved Paslode gun nails and screws. The result exactly one year after construction was slightly unnerving:
The Paslode nails had alot of visible “whitish” oxidation, and a few already had surface rust. The screws had moderate surface rust, especially under the head and on the upper shank. The few HDG hand drives I found also had the same amount of white surface oxidation as the gun nails. Several bolts we removed had moderate rust on the washers (on the side that touched the ACQ lumber).
Oddly enough, the Simpson hardware we used, whether Z-max or not, has just slight oxidation.
Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Replies
I sell building materials in Michigan and this scares the hell out of me. I recently had a customer remove two treated beams from a home where they were cantilevered to support a small deck. The customer changed his mind. The beams were through-bolted with 1/2" carriage bolts to a LVL. After just two months, under the subfloor and roof ply, there was significant corrison on the bolt where it was in contact with the treated beam and none where it passed through the untreated LVL. I realize the codes say that as long as the fastener is 1/2" diameter it's ok, but this really concerns me. Today I recieved a notice from Maze nails that basically says we don't have any idea how corrisive these new treatments are. There are at this point no reliable standards and we should be suspect of all fasteners, with the exception of stainless steel. And to top it off, the lawyers are starting to smell blood.
I would appreciate any input.
Oneswing
This is a dielectric issue. For a critical structure or support a nylon or other not metallic material washer may help. Any comments fromt he suppliers about using a white grease on the carriage shafts. Not a good idea for nails.
So I talked with my dad last night about the rust on all the fasteners and about how I (and the BT crew) had come to the consensus that SS is better. I told him SS would be 2-3x the cost of HDG, and he said "Do whatever you think is best."
My only dilemna now is all of the framing is attached with HDG gun nails, so what good will SS deck screws do?
Oh well, it gives me an excuse to look at McFeely's again!Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
I've been using nothing but stainless since the ACQ conversion. I'd rather be safe than sorry. Hardware expense really starts to add up 2x8 stainless joist hanger is 8.50. I need 40 for the current deck I'm building, so it was $340 just for hangers. Add another $200 for stainless steel trim head screws, and 10d ring shank nails.
Stacy's mom has got it going on.
When I first started hearing about the ACQ problem, I grabbed a chunk of it and sunk a whole bunch of different fasteners into it, one of every type I had--bright, electrogalv, HDG, coated deck screws, SS, and a couple of ordinary Simpson hangers for good measure.
The chunk sat around in my barn for many months, and then it was in my way so I tossed it outside, where grass grew up around it. My wife recently uncovered it. Safe to say it's been wet for quite a while.
There is no sign of corrosion on any of the fasteners. Not a bit. Nothing like I've been hearing about. It makes me wonder if the wood is treated at all, or maybe the plant accidentally put ACQ tags on CCA lumber. The lumber was bought in Sep. 2003, before the big ban (occurred 1/04 I think).
There must be an answer. I don't have it. I am building a deck right now with ACQ joists and using all SS fasteners.
I'd wager it was still CCA. Though it does make a big difference if the wood is allowed to fully dry out between wettings.
I'll second your bet....before ACQ, when CCA was still accepted, most galvanized gun nails here were electro-galvanized. I helped build an old carpenter buddy's deck with them and they're still doing fine!
I removed some more nails from the deck joists today; the nails in ACQ that were protected from mass water by the covered porch had not rusted, while the ones in the open had rusted badly enough you couldn't tell they were ring-shanks.
When we reinstalled the joists, we used the same type nails, but in 3 1/4"x.131" instead of the 3"x.120" that was originally used.
It seems that the combination of ACQ and water has a much more corrosive effect than ACQ and dry (protected) lumber from what I've seen.
In the future I'm going to try to persuade customers to go with all SS nails/hardware, and inform them I can't guarantee things after so long with HDG stuff.
This is starting to suck!Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Making up a demonstration piece would be worthwhile. It would be more convincing to a client, and mark you as someone really on the ball.
Jason,
I don't even give them the option. The risk is not worth the reward. I just figure all my bids involving ACQ with stainless hardware. If I lose the bid over it, I'm better off.
Stacy's mom has got it going on.
Bear in mind you can probably avoid using SS hangers (the more expensive part of the upgrade) if you wrap the ends of the joists with Vycor before slipping them into a galvanized hanger. The only thing I'd wonder about is the possible reaction between the SS nails and the galv. hangers at the contact point. I don't think that's an issue since they're not really "dissimilar metals" like copper and brass, but I could be wrong there.
Bob
FIrst, Dustin, in my area, of all the decks I have built recently, only one customer demanded SS fasteners, and she supplied them. Most people in my area select a deck builder on price, not on finished structural integrity or attention to detail. I overbuild everything, and that costs more than what is "competitive", and simply put a lot of people just can't justify spending more when the next door neighbor had one built for x amount, and "it's still standing."
Bob, I wondered that myself, especially since I've seen that the Z-max hardware has withstood the ACQ and water very well. Stainless fasteners certainly cost more, but not nearly as much so as ALL SS hardware. Maybe FHB or JLC will do some tests in the near future....Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
I have made the changeover to all stainless. But I did investigate " diapering" with Vycor membrane. If I remember right the Simpson web site said this was an acceptable method only if galvinizied fasteners were used. They went to great lenghths to say stainless was taboo. I thought this was pretty odd. Ain't the galvy fastener the weak link in the system ( and a darn weak link).
I agree, the reaction between the galvy metal and the stainless is probley insignificant. But I am not a metals (can't spell metalurgical) engineer.
I think this whole issue is going to become a MAJOR timebomb for the entire building industry in several years.
A deck I built this summer using Deckrite screws is shot. 90% of the decking screws have broken off where the threads meet the smooth shank. Now I have two remakes because of this problem. I really liked the Deckrite screws because of the hybrid drive design they used. I guess it's SS from now on and I'll stock up on phillips driver bits.NCtim
Most people think of the ACQ corrosion issue when it relates to decks. The issue I always wonder about is the house/foundation connection.
Most sill plates are PT. What happens when the fasteners get eaten through there? Seems to me there could be some major trouble due to the pressure from the soil - especially on a house with a full basement.
HD galv nails rated for ACQ are only guaranteed for 10 years....
There is borate treated mudsill material available. You might have to look, but it's out there. Borates are fairly benign. They're a salt, and so will promote some electrolysis between dis-similar metals, but not to the extent that ACQ is said to do. Borates are slightly more toxic to humans than is table salt. The only downside I see is that they're water soluable and can leach out in very wet conditions.Andy Engel
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
We use borate-treated 2x4 and 2x6 for bottom plates on slabs every day. Brite gun nails and no problems. I just wish the manu's had a solution to exterior treated lumber.
You'd have to snort CCA sawdust like cocaine to really be affected by it, IMO.Jason Pharez Construction
Framing & Exterior Remodeling
Since water is one of the ingrediants needed for the electronysis to work I think that why ACQ mud sills are not as much problem. Properly built house they should stay fairly dry. And agrees with your observation.About 4-6 months ago one of the mags had a blurb on a new treatment process that is non-toxic and non-corrosive and cna withstand the weather.Don't remember the name, but it was only available from a processor in MN and one in NC at the time.
Bill - do you have any ideas on how to find the processors? I live in NC and want ACQ out of my life ASAP.
As an aside to all: How long before insurance companies start jacking up the premiums for deck contractors due to ACQ issues and litigation?
DCS Inc.
"Whaddya mean I hurt your feelings, I didn't know you had any feelings." Dave Mustaine
Timbersil is what I was thinking about.http://www.timbersil.com/authorized-treaters.htmlI see the processor is in SC and they also have one in WI in addtion to MN.
Thanks, Bill.
I'm about an hour from greenville,sc. This could work out nice, I'll let you know.DCS Inc.
"Whaddya mean I hurt your feelings, I didn't know you had any feelings." Dave Mustaine
I'd like to jump into this discussion by saying I agree 100% with you about snorting CCA dust & in fact can back it up. I was a Dept of Natural Resources carp. for 12 yrs & 98% of my work was with CCA pt lumber. I designed & built bridges, boardwalks, stairs observation decks etc. in a variety of State parks.On 1 project I was cutting a bunch of mortices for railing & finishing with a ball grinder to get radius on railing mat'l.Produced a huge amt. of dust. I was worried about what kind of heavy metals dose I was getting as I wore nothing more than dust mask.Our regional safety guy agreed & I wore a portable air quality monitor on my belt for a wk. I really blasted that thing with pt dust! After exam. at ind. testing lab, results came back with copper levels way below acceptable EPA levels & NO arsenic even showing up! Further more the DNR has used CCA pt lumber since its' invention for fishing piers, boat docks & launch sites & all kinds of underwater structures with NO reported fish or aquatic life kills that I'm aware of. IMHO the whole movement to a "gentler" treatment is a crock of you know what! Jah rules! Norskeboy
Hi Norskeboy, why would you expect any arsenic to show up? An air monitor isn't going to pick up a large chunky material like sawdust unless you aerosolizing it. Same thing happens with lead paint, you find huge plumes of lead immediately below bridges where it's flaked off but go out just a few feet out of the window and it tails off to nothing. That pattern comes about because lead paint isn't that fine, it's large enough that it falls (more or less) straight down and stays there never really becomes airborne.Also for what it's worth, CCA wasn't pulled due to worker exposure, it was pulled because kids were getting high expsosures off of playground equipment, which included 'hand to mouth' behavior etc.Not that any of this helps with the frustrations with ACQ though.best,
-s
Check out a website http://www.timbersil.com .....there might be a better treatment in the mill. Right now their problem is increasing production and distribution.
Currently the achitectural firm I do on-site inspections for attempts at all possible points of specification to eliminate the use of ACQ or Copper Azole. Borates are used for interior/on exposed applications.
If ACQ is the only option then all fasteners must be SS and any contact with other metal building materials must be membraned (diapered).
Down the road in 5-10 years there is an extreme liability attached to the use of ACQ and C-A.
..............Iron Helix
We've switched to borate for mudsill. The specs I got from the manufacturer and from Thor Matteson's website, show that it can get wet during construction, but they limit the time it can get wet. We are typically totally dried in in 3 weeks or less, and the mudsill itself is almost always protected within a couple of days of putting it on.
It's lighter because it's KD and much "healthier" for the user.
http://www.borax.com/wood/technical3.html
Tim, who are you getting it thru? I need to find a source and I'm not sure the local lumber places are into anything cutting edge like that. It will probably be easier for me to just get it from the mainland myself.
Dave,
We actually get it through our lumberyard. When I called our salesman, he said one of the other stores in another county stocked it because the building department up there preferred it.
Also, the plant that we get it from is about 2 hours from here in WA.
Actually, I've read several times, in several places, that mixing SS fasteners with galvy hardware can lead to an equally corrosive situation. Unfortunately, I'm at a loss right now for where I read it last.... maybe the Simpson website? Anyway, just thought I'd point out yet another way that ACQ is making my life more difficult than it has to be.
I called Simpson about exactly this and they were clear: don't use SS nails with galvy hardware. The *hardware* fails, not the nail. SS is further away from galv than regular steel so your experience with low carbon steel won't necessarily translate to stainless. Metal compatibility chart from jamestown: http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/decoder_compmetals.jsp