Remodeling first floor bathroom. Toliet comes off and the PVC (3″) drain is sitting underneath with a seperate rusted broken flange. There was some water staining on the floor but the wood is still good and no signs of water damage from the basement looking up.
Option 1 – Buy a new flange (just the ring) and secure it to the floor. Use a wax ring with a horn and the toilet will be secure. This was my initial thought but then there is no real connection between the toilet and the drain. The drain is basically floating under the floor and could wiggle.
Option 2 – Replace the drain. I can get at all the piping from underneath and my gut tells me to replace it right but the fittings under the floor are all tight and butted together. In order to replace the drain I’d need to put in a toilet flange with 90 elbow connected to another 90 elbow connected to a Y that drains the rest of the house then connect to a 90 elbow where I can tie into existing. (all these are butted tight right now)
Is there a higher potential for leaking using option 1? Did the previous plumber do what he did because he had no other choice?
Thanks,
Mike
Replies
I vote for #2. A well-equipped plumber would use a Pipe Shredder to ream out the first elbow and install a new closet flange w/o replacing all of the other fittings.
Go with #2 As David said, use a device to remove the old pipe end. The tool fits into the end of 1/2 drill and works great. Replacement of pvc pipe is as easy as any plumbing gets and would be another good option. If your unable to do this simple plumbing aspect, then you shouldn't be removing the water closet either cause that's just as difficult.
If its all PVC, just replace it. Unless you do alot of plumbing though i'd rent the reaming tool. I needed a 1.5" reamer once and they wanted something like $25 for it. The 3" wont be cheaper. I ended up borrowing my plumbers.
I just got home from work and went down to take another look at the drain. A picture is attached (I think, I have never attached a pic before) looking up from the basement.
The pipe is "thin wall sch 30".
As you can see there is very little room for play in the veritical. Everything is butted up tight. I am raising the flange a bit but not much. For reference, the line to the right runs 15 feet then drops 3 feet and out to the septic system. The line coming in from the upper left goes back 5 feet and then up to the second story bathrooms.
Is it possible to cut out all this mess then run the upstairs bathroom pipe into the line with a few elbows and then move the toilet drain to the right (the other side of the floor joist) and make the connection with a wye in the line? This would give me some more room to play veritcally. Would this cause an issue with venting?
Thanks,
Mike
Edited 1/5/2007 7:14 pm ET by mikeberr
If the 3" coming into the wye on the left is a second-floor bathroom, where IS the vent for the first floor toilet?
Shame on the framers for not moving the floor joist over to avoid that big notch by the plumber (who had little choice, it seems)
hmmm... venting....
pipe to the right heads 15 feet over where it drops 3 feet into a lateral line out to septic. Also on this lateral line is another 3" wye with a pipe that runs vertical and eventually out the roof.
I agree, the framer could have made it easier for the plumber.
mike
OK... tellin' ya' what Plumbbill learned me:
There should be a 2" vent takeoff at or before the toilet line turns downward. That means the second elbow from the toilet should have a vent takeoff. Normally the first elbow under the toilet turns toward the wall, and the second elbow (which turns downward) has a 2" takeoff on the top that is the vent riser.
If the 3" on the left is a drain from upstairs, then you have wet venting of that toilet. I think that pipe would need to be 4" in order to be legal.
It looks like you're in a crawl space or basement. Since you mentioned the 3' drop further down the line, is there any chance you can drop the whole thing a foot or so. If you get further below the joists it's easier. Maybe take a pic from further back so we can see whatcha got.
Thanks for the help.
The house is 30 years old and there are no other issues (other then really hard water) with the plumbing so my main concern is to install the toilet right in order to prevent leakage. From my searching on the web, it looks like Sch 30 PVC is not legal inside a house but I am not going to take n changing out the sch 30 stuff at this time because it works and I have other items that also need attention. (it's a 70's spec house so there is no shortage of things to do)
One pic (plumb1.jpg) is taken looking up at the toilet drain. the other pic (plumb2.jpg) is taken from farther away. The toilet drain is on the left, everything runs to the right where it drops and goes out to the septic system. The 3" line downstream of where the toilet drain enters is the vent and goes out the roof.
I am thinking I can separate the mess in plumb1.jpg a little bit by moving the toilet drain to the right of the floor joist and connecting with a wye to the existing line. Then reconnect the line from the upstairs baths on the left of the wye. Seems like this would not change the venting situation and it would also give me some room to play with the vertical to the toilet drain.
Thanks,
Mike
There's plenty of room to repipe that without jamming the fittings together. Looks like it's even a stand-up job! Nothing you can do about the joist notch at this point w/o major effort, and if the floor feels stiff I would not bother. It doesn't look like you will have to enlarge the notch to move the toilet outlet to the other side of the joist.
I was concerned about the Sch 30 pipe and finding fittings. But I just got back from the big box and they had as many Sch 30 fittings as they did Sch 40 fittings. I'l just replace everything and move the toilet drain to the other side of the joist to get some more room.
A word about the notch in the joist... If you look in the Plumb1 pic you can see an elevation change in the top of the concrete wall. The bathroom is up one step from the family room (which is to the right) so there is about 3 feet where there are 2x8's on top of the regular 2x10's. The notch for the toilet is cut out of the top 2x8 and the bottom 2x10 is full width.
Thanks for the help. Guess I just needed a push to do it right. It'll cost me some time but no more time then redoing it later in case something leaks.
Mike
Hi, just because they have the same # of sch 30 as sch 40 does not indicate acceptability for any given purpose. I would ask a local plumber of inspection office to make that decision.
That is a bunch of pipe down there. Loks like grat working conditions though. If it were for one of my customers I would be on my back getting reacquainted with spiders and dampness.
I redid all the drains in this house 4 years ago when we bought it. Completely demo'd everything and put in new ABS (it's not common to use PVC for drains here). There is nothing better than knowing you have drains that will flow well without any attention ever. Correct slope, gradual sweeps, cleanouts where they'll be accessible and do some good... well worth having.
Sch 30 is legal in doors. But I might be limited to use in venting. I am not sure.The whole reason for sch 30 3" is that it will fit in a 2x4 wall..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
All the 3" in the house is Sch 30 as far as I can tell. The house was built in the mid 70's as a spec house in an established area (i.e. not built out in the sticks) so I would think it was inspected and it clearly is Sch 30 so my guess is that it was probably legal at the time.
I asked my friend who is a licensed builder and he said it is allowed in the area and they use it all the time because it fits in a 2by4 wall. He isn't a plumber but he is pretty sharp about those things.
I replaced the plumbing in kind with new and everything seems to be working as I expected.
thanks,
mike
Why is it that plumbers feel that the best way to install plumbing is to remove/cut floor joists?
Something else to look at, see
http://www.fernco.com/FTS.asp
Carter Lumer is carrying them around here, NE Oh.
I used one for a "construction toilet". 16" piece of 2x12 with a repair flange screwed to it. screwed it to the floor over pipe, insert toilet with Fernco and bolt down. Coated Fernco with liquid soap each time. I moved it around about 10 times, depending on where I was working, Fernco is STUCK on. Came out easy each time, never leaked. It extends about 3" and can make up pretty good gap. When I put in the final toilets, each one has one. I'll never use a wax ring again!
price about $4.00
Edited 1/9/2007 1:44 pm ET by 741cp
I have used the 'no wax ring" toilet seals and find them great. My most recent use was on a bathroom remodel in a home that had only one bathroom. Needless to say, not having a toilet at the end of the workday was not an option. I was able to set the toilet at the end of the day and remove it when the next workday began. I set/reset the toilet 10 times over the span of the remodel and never had any issues at all. I do still use wax rings when doing a toilet replacement simply due to the lower cost, but, I will use the rubber type in the future for large remodel jobs.