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Adding Zones to and old Hot Water system

ArbrnEngr | Posted in Energy, Heating & Insulation on March 17, 2009 06:46am

Ok, been a long time since I have gotten to be here at Breaktime, and it seems longer since I have had time to work on the house.

I have been deployed since 2005 and well let me say the honey do list is a novel that seems like it will be longer than War and Peace.

I just finished a complete remodel of the Kitchen, while I have been on leave, and the next project is as the wifey says, “Make it warm upstairs.”

I am a definite hands on type, and frankly want to add zones to my heating system.

I have a boiler that feeds Radiators, throughout the house on four levels.

Basement has Radiators, as does the Second Floor Bedrooms.

The First floor is split with Baseboard and two Radiators in the Kitchen.

I want to change out the Radiators in the two used bedrooms for baseboard, simply for space, the placement of the Radiators stops the closet doors from being able to be opened fully. Go figure.

In addition I want to Zone the floors separately.

Admittedly, this is the weakest of all my skills. Well that and figuring out how to shorten the honey do list, it just keeps growing.

I have all the mechanical skill to do the work, frankly I need a little bit of, “Hey Sarge, buy that and put it there advice.”

I am very fortunate in that in the basement the heating pipes and branches are all exposed, although painted and pealing.

Basically I have an independent  supply and return loop that feeds each fixture . I can see and trace each feed and am able to determine where it goes. My thoughts are to cut the feed and supply to each fixture, tie it in with PEX and run it back to the boiler where I would like to split the system into three separate Zones.

And now as to the reason for the post, how do I control the zones independently?

Books, Drawings or sketches on a napkin would be a great help, My motto is K.I.S.S.

Incidentally, Where the Radiators are staying are more for convenience and nostalgia and not as much for need or efficiency.

 

Thanks

Dave

 

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Replies

  1. BoJangles | Mar 17, 2009 02:52pm | #1

    That's a pretty big job, but not hard to do once you have the knowledge.  If I were you, I'd go get a few books on hydronic heating by John Siegenthaler or Dan Holohan.

    Siegenthaler has a great book out ( Modern Hydronic Heating ) that will explain all of the technical aspects for you. 

    Dan Holohan writes in a practical way that makes sense and is easy to understand.

    1. ArbrnEngr | Mar 17, 2009 05:35pm | #4

      Bo,

      Thanks looking for the books on line as I type.

       

      Dave

      1. Totalhome | Mar 17, 2009 08:41pm | #5

        One bit of advice, don't mix fin tube baseboard with cast iron (baseboard or radiators) on the same zone. They have very different abilities to retain heat after the system shuts down, and very different response times when it fires up, so the heat will not be even through out the zone.

        1. ArbrnEngr | Mar 18, 2009 12:10am | #7

          Interesting. The house has a mixture all on one system, and that is why I felt the house did not heat well.

          By splitting out the zones I am aleviating this situation. Good to know I figured out that one on my own.

          I guess that means I am on the right track.

           

          Dave

      2. User avater
        EricPaulson | Mar 17, 2009 08:42pm | #6

        There are a couple of website that are suggested here often. One is called "The wall" I think?

        Perhpa spmeone will chime in soon.

        Welcome home. 

  2. Tim | Mar 17, 2009 02:58pm | #2

    Sarge,

    You have two things to consider in zoning a system. Pumping and valving. Two ways to simply zone a hydronic (this is a water system, not steam, right?) system. One is with small zone circulators (pumps) and another is with zone valves. IF you use zone valves then you need to maintain a minimum flow through the system when is low. The simplest way to do this is with a pressure controlled valve at the end of a loop that will open to allow flow when most of the zones are not calling for heat.

    Independently controlling zones is pretty straight forward. I prefer a zone control panel (includes a 120/24 volt transformer and relays for each zone) with zone valves (on the return side). Honeywell, Weil-McLain and I'm sure many others, have these available in various capacities (like 4, 6 or 8 zones without expansion). A Low voltage thermostat in each zone opens and closes each zone valve and you use the system pump you already have. All zone panels that I am familiar with will proved a signal to the boiler when there is a call for heat.

    Basic wiring and plumbing skills are all you need.

    1. ArbrnEngr | Mar 17, 2009 05:33pm | #3

      Tim,

      Yes it is water, and thanks for the reply.

      Here is a bit of my experience, I have replaced pumps in both oil and natural gas fired systems. I am also comfortable changing out radiators and baseboards as I have done this as well.

      With the knowledge I have do you think running separate pumps to zone the system will be easier?

      Next is the control panel, I know how to replace the relay on a single  zoned system, also something I have done, so is zoning a pump system pretty much like installing new relays and wiring them to fire the boiler as each or multiple zones demand the heated water?

       

      Thanks.

      1. BryanSayer | Mar 18, 2009 12:34am | #8

        The catch with zones is that each has to be a complete circuit of piping.So you may have to open up walls or something to get new pipes in place.

      2. Tim | Mar 31, 2009 08:32pm | #12

        I've been away for a few weeks, sorry for the delay

        I think the ease or difficulty for either approach is not significantly different than the other. Zone circulators cost more than zone valves and require 120 volt wiring from the zone panel relays, vs 24v wiring for most small (1/2" and 3/4) zone valves. With a system circulator in the system now, zone valves will be a little easier less expensive.

        The zone control panel, either intended for pumps or for valves, is a collection of relays and a 120/24 volt ac transformer. A 24v power supply is sent to each zone thermostat. On a call for heat, the thermostat sends a 24v signal to the zone relay and the boiler "call for heat" isolated relay (connected to all zone stats). If the system is for zone valves (zone valve relays are not really necessary, but the isolation relay for boiler heat is) a 24v signal is sent to the appropriate valve to open. If it is a zone circulator control panel, the stat closes a relay that send 120 volt power to the appropraite circulator.

        In either case a minum flow through the boiler must be maintained when its firing. Some boilers will have a flow switch that will not allow the unit to fire without proven flow, some may not. Either approach is certainly in your capabilities. With simple electrical wiring skills and access to the components, the "control panel" can easily be assembled by anyone with the interest and time, unless the discussion above leads you to believe otherwise.

        As far as mixed zones, I don't agree complete with what was posted previously. All terminal devices should be sized/selected based on the heat load and the system parameters (supply temperature, dT). There is no issue with having finned tube and CI radiator on a single system or zone, other than the question - "why would you do that?". Is a hodge-podge repair, if so chances are the function has been somewhat compromised. Or is it a planned system with various components selected for specific needs and locations, possibly but not likely.

        1. ArbrnEngr | Apr 01, 2009 01:07am | #13

          Thanks for the explaination of the Zones and the basics of valves over circulators.

          After reading I think I have a basic idea of what I want to do and how to do it. I think I am going to go with a valve type control system.

          As far as different fixtures on the same Zone, it is clear the house was intended to use different fixtures. As an example the kitchen has a radiator in the space right next to the back door and fin type baseboards along a long straight wall. I am sure the plan was to use the radiators in areas where vertical height was a better option due to little horizontal runs.

          The only place I plan on changing out radiators to fin type baseboard is in the bedrooms. Based on the plumbing this shoukle be very easy, I even have a secondd chance recycler that will pay for my old radiators, enough to cover the new baseboards and a few extra dollars to spare.

          I actually did not know recycling some old products could be so lucrative.

          1. Tim | Apr 06, 2009 11:26pm | #14

            Cast iron radiators are hard to come by and expensive. Residential finned-tube radiation (FTR) is typically very inexpensive. 20 to 1 cost comparison. There is cast iron baseboard radiaton, but its faily expensive in comparison to "regular" FTR.

          2. User avater
            Haystax | Apr 07, 2009 04:14am | #15

            "The Wall" - http://forums.invision.net/index.cfm?CFID=6584088&CFTOKEN=1ed1395-aa4c9408-53d2-4cce-9703-6e79097546b0&CFApp=2&I am installing hydronic radiant floors in my new house, The Wall and the Holohan and Steigenthaler books have been great.I haven't heard mention of your boiler type nor supply temps. These are two important variables I believe you will need to take into account when adding a low temp floor zoneIf you use a tempering valve to reduce water temp, you will need a circulator in addition to the mixing valve.Too cold of return water may not be good for some older cast iron boilers.If you use a circulator, I would suggest the new Wilo ECO series ECM pumps. Senses pressure to deliver only necessary flow - amazing little machine. Hope to have mine fired up by the end of this week.They will straighten you out over there on The Wall.

  3. wallyo | Mar 18, 2009 07:49am | #9

    You may want to take a look at Runtal flat panels for replacement a bit more the fin tube, but like a cast iron they have more mass and stay warmer longer. Put a towel warmer unit in the bath room and your DW will love the warm towels and robe. On second though no need to make your list longer. All different shapes and sizes and heights are made for just about any room.

    I zoned out my sisters house for them but was a different ball game natural geothermal hot water no boiler so it was easy. I just installed valves on the out flow and installed a thermostat for each valve. I used Taco heat motor valves which work great and if it stops working you twist off the motor and install a new one no need to undo the whole valve and drain the system.

    http://www.runtalnorthamerica.com/

    Hey welcome home and thanks.

    Wallyo

    1. ArbrnEngr | Mar 18, 2009 08:08pm | #10

      Thanks for the link, thiese are very similar to what I saw in Germany on my last deployment. These do have possibilities for the bedrooms, actually.

      Europeans are really good at style and design in some areas aren"t they.

      Dave

      1. wallyo | Mar 18, 2009 09:03pm | #11

        Dave when using the runtals you have to think out of the box so to speak. I put ten in my sisters house over the years. Each time we did a room we ordered one or two of them.Part of the kitchen has a bay about 30" deep x 8' long counter, cabs and no uppers. We put one on the left hand 30" wall next to the dishwasher and sink, above the counter, perfect for wet dish towels and gloves since the deck door is there.Another is tucked in the toe tick of a cabinet in the laundry, it is a single panel unit 4+inches tall.Two towel warmers/radiators in the baths.Where we could we placed them on outside walls. Some are placed on semi outside walls. The house is a craftsmen bungalow 1919, the upstairs has knee walls in the bedrooms with attic space on the other side, some units are on these knee walls.Some are plumbed with black iron pipe. Others are plex till the wall or floor then we change to chrome plated 1/2" brass pipe and elbows, which looks sharp. On some we sprayed the black pipe with epoxy appliance paint to match the units, they are all white.If you go for some buy their chrome plated supply fittings, they are sweet and worth it, available straight and angled.They have a union fitting and shut off valve built in, remove the cover close the shut off valve drain the unit, undo the union, you then can take the Runtal off the wall and paint behind without draining the whole system ( one on both inlet and outlet}Good luck any questions ask.WallyoEdited 3/18/2009 2:08 pm by wallyo

        Edited 3/18/2009 2:19 pm by wallyo

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