Kicking around a business idea that would be (initially at least) directed at mid to high end building and remodeling, so looking for feedback and opinions…
Curious how many of you are using high end (think potentially Hollywood level) modeling to sell work, or help clients visualize projects? What systems are you using? How many that aren’t wish they could? I’m talking about a presentation where the project is not only extremely detailed down to finishes but depending on your budget, terrain, weather and possesses physics where doors open in real time, lights can be turned on and off, things like fountains operate (complete with sound), time of day passes, wind blows through trees, etc etc.
And of course, most importantly, would you be willing to pay for this service and on what basis?
Replies
Most architects now use some form of 3d modeling software. Some names that come to mind, Rhino, any number of products from Autodesk, Form-z, Catia etc. Bear in mind the modeling software is only as good as the user and it is simply another tool. If you don't have the talent for illustrating or rendering to begin with your presentations will reflect that.
I understand that Ted. I've been using all kinds of tools such as CA, Softplan etc. But this particular application has a number of features and detail I haven't seen previously...PaulB
http://www.makeabettertomorrow.com
http://www.finecontracting.com
Are you thinking that wowing a potential client with slick computer graphics will sway them to buy services from you?
View Image
"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Nope... guess I haven't explained myself well. I'll try to rephrase it and/or show some examples...PaulB
http://www.makeabettertomorrow.com
http://www.finecontracting.com
As I and Frenchy mentioned in another thread. Presentation can be a huge part of the sales package. To me its all part of the business. and part of the business is being able to present and help your client understand what you are selling and how it is differs from your competitor. I've known some pretty talented builders with good design skills that have come in second place because of their lack of business acumen, a lot of which had to do with how they sold themselves and their product. In a recent workshop on selling work the presenter put it this way, "A good craftsman that has learned the craft of building well but has not learned the basics of business will most likely starve. But a mediocre craftsman that has mastered the craft of business has a good chance of doing quite well for himself."
"A good craftsman that has learned the craft of building well but has not learned the basics of business will most likely starve. But a mediocre craftsman that has mastered the craft of business has a good chance of doing quite well for himself."
True, true true! I have witnessed that dozens of times over the years.
OK, let me try this again...
I'm wondering if there would be a market for this: You're a builder/remodeler in the high end market. You give "us" your plans, and schedule of finishes. You then can bring your client to a virtual model of the project that is veryyyyy detailed . In the case of a home for instance you could (budget permitting) walk around the house and the trees are swaying in the breeze, birds are chirping, clouds are drifting by. If there's water nearby it's lapping at the shore etc etc etc... Your client can operate lights, open and close doors, sit on a couch and watch the TV. That a better explanation?PaulB
http://www.makeabettertomorrow.com
http://www.finecontracting.com
paul.... as you know ... chief can do some pretty good rendering.... but it still isn't good enough for high end...
some of the chief guys export to other rendering programs
have you ever looked at the FREEWARE called kerkythea ?
http://www.kerkythea.net/joomla/
to answer you.... yes there would be a market for that.... but high end rendering is pretty much available already in the market.... but not my marketMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks Mike, I think you get what I'm saying.
I was actually going to call you to bounce this off you. The difference between things like Kerkythia and what I'm talking about is what has become known as a "Metaverse" where it may not be as photorealistic as some high end renderings (although it can be) but it is a more "immersive" experience. Anyway, it's becoming a big thing online...PaulB
http://www.makeabettertomorrow.com
http://www.finecontracting.com
well... i visit the sites of some of these guys / gals...
once they've gone up the learning curve, it still requires an inordinate amount of time to arrive at the finished product
suppose you started with one of those model examples in the chief site.... ie: a finished model....
how long would it take you to get from there to the final presentation ?Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Okay got it. In my experience I think most high end builders and their clients are pretty much into the conventional. That is it has been done before and there is nothing really unique about the space or the structure. You know, one mcmansion is just a collection of parts used everywhere else. And all the builder needs to do is flip open their portfolio and say something like, "How about a bay window over here, with this type of kitchen layout like this in this space" etc.
The reason Architects use 3D software and build scale models is because their clients usually want something more suited to their individual lives and a lot of times this entails things the clients may not have seen in the past to have a reference to go on and thus have a hard time trying to visualize what the architect is trying to convey. And unlike builders the clients that tend to use architects are willing to pay for the design services they offer which typically includes some sort of 33d modeling. In contrast clients visiting a builder tend to not want to get involved in the design process and are usually looking for more instant gratification.
Having been involved in 3d Illustration for a while ( non-professional) what you are suggesting - an interactive environment, with sound, wind, lights, animated foliage and animals, weather and skylighting - would require some seriously huge computing power and memory. And this would all serve as just the background to a 3D representation of a finished structure.
It's ambitious, but I think a high-end client would go for it if they had the cash.
You might want to look at Vue Infinite, Lightwave 3D, 3DS Max and Maya. If you ever watched Battlestar Galactica (the new one) on the SciFi Channel they use Lightwave 3D for the ships, environments and buildings. Vue is excellent at rendering environments (see Pirates of the Carribean 2 & 3). Maya and 3DS Max can set you back a few grand. Lightwave 3d is arround $800 and Vue, depending which package you buy can goes for as little as 100.00 up to $2500.00.
You'll definately need a drawing tablet since it will give you far greater control and detail over finished product.
Then to just makes things a little more confusing...after you have everything drawn you might need a rendering engine to produce a final image. Most high-end 3D tools have a rendering tool built in, but some seperate rendering tools do a better job. Check out MentalRay, 3Delight, Aqsis and Yafray.
Another package to check out is Blender - a totally free 3D tool that will illustrate, texture, paint and animate. The learning curve is just short of stratospheric, but you could produce Jurassic Park 4 with it.
If I can answer any questions drop me a line - I'd be happy to help.
Edited 3/6/2009 8:51 am ET by SteveVA
OK, now we're talking ;) Although I'm debating whether the offshore labor rates will make this impractical we're kinda on the same page Steve. Specifically I'm thinking more along the lines of one of the existing "metaverses" like Second Life where there's already a huge base of environmental elements and a vast supply of overseas teenage geeks happy to work for surprisingly little money. Battlestar Galactica it's not, but some of the stuff I've seen on these "grids" is truly remarkable stuff... anyway appreciate all the input.PaulB
http://www.makeabettertomorrow.com
http://www.finecontracting.com
There is a pretty nice 3D package out there called Blender which is scriptable (you can do walkthrough animations) Its main web site is blender.orgIts released under an open source license, (sort of like PostgreSQL, Apache, Linux, etc.) That means that its free to download, and its actively being developed. Blender runs on most major platforms. (Windows, OSX, Linux, etc.) Its pretty slick. Its not a simple program, though. There is definitely a learning curve. As it uses OpenGL it also requires a decent graphics card to perform well.A few years ago I read somewhere that there is a spinoff out there that aims to develop an added set of tools to make Blender more useful for solid modeling, which would presumably make it more able to do CAD-like work. I don't know much more than that. It might be worth looking into. Also, that capability may be available now.There also is the free version of Google SketchUp.
Paul,I have a friend out in San Francisco who tried doing what you are talking about. He worked for a project coordination firm and his business partner worked for an architecture firm. Together they decided they had the necessary creativity and know how to render for builders....were talking strip malls, town houses, low rise offices, etc. All they needed to do was to get the general plan and elevation, see the sight, and render outside and a path or two on a fly through of the inside.They got a couple starting commissions; that was it.I told my friend before he set out that I, as a builder, didn't think it would work and I believe they proved me right. Although a good salesman could sell ice to eskimos, maybe you are that guy.good luckDC
DC
You make a good point - rendering the final product isn't complicated or necessarily time-consuming. There are render farms - rooms full of techies and geeks amidst ceiling-high banks of multi-terabyte processors - that just crunch 1's and 0's to produce a final digital image product.
The PITA is the drawing, scaling, compositing. lighting, coloring and shading. This is usually handled by production teams, much like an assembly line. Someone works on the skylighting, others work on environmental elements, still others the structural elements, etc.
Literally, in the case of a client's home, any illustrator will build the entire structure at the digital level - the amount of detail will greatly impact the overall development time and the size of the project in terms of Gigabytes...of which there will be lots of them.
Then there is the animation portion. It's one thing to pull up a file on a laptop and do a virtual walk-thru a la Sketch-Up or CA, a digital movie with an animated environment is different by several orders of magnitude. I'm not saying it isn't doable, but there is a significant time commitment involved.
Just another two cent.
Steve
Edited 3/6/2009 8:53 am ET by SteveVA
I got a taste of the computer power such high levels of 3D work requires this past month.Just upgraded my Softplan to the latest and it will let me turn lights on and off and fly through or twirl the model around.But while my computers could produce some decent renderings in an older version, the best I can put out now is a sketched or illustrated version, not a rendered. I'm shopping now for a new machine that can make use of the software capabilities. It won't be cheap.
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If you're going to go into serious rendering I opt for a Mac with a quad core processor (or 2 if you can swing it) and as much memory as affordable.
Steve
SP doesn't go with Mac unless I used Mac's windows within so right back to scratch with that idea.The SP forum guys all indicate that it is important to use one of the best video cards with 512 or more ram on board it, and the latest driver for it, in addition the at min 2gig processor.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Last years best is still pretty good, you can find solid dual core, 64 bit machines for way under $1k at the big volume sellers like newegg, frys, etc..Server mother boards are built especially well. But any 64bit CPUs ability to address lots more memory than a 32 bit machine may be a big plus for CAD power users, and you hopefully won't have to pay that new adopter premium. PCI-X video also is now much cheaper, with the promise of apps being available soon that can offload some math tasks to the video card's GPU. We'll see.
hey! you promised you weren't coming back! :)
WTH?
i didn't
this isn't me.
well, then who aren't you?
You're a sneaky devil!http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
Thank you...I don't get many compliments and I treasure yours.
dang HOs were taking over.http://www.tvwsolar.com
I went down to the lobby
To make a small call out.
A pretty dancing girl was there,
And she began to shout,
"Go on back to see the gypsy.
He can move you from the rear,
Drive you from your fear,
Bring you through the mirror.
He did it in Las Vegas,
And he can do it here."
Paul-- don't do it.
The majority of the rendering work is happening off shore and practically for free. If you can do it at a profit for $2500 somebody in India is going to scoop the job for $500.
I've seen some gorgeous stuff.
We do lots of high end stuff and we typically are doing in cad and then hand colouring renderings. I guess we are pretty traditional.
There was a deck company in the Toronto area advertising free 3d renderings... they were terrible--poor guys didn't know how to build decks either. Last I saw they were using spyware or something on their site...
Anyhow most of the 3d modelling in the trades is happening using sketchup... but many of these off shore design guys are using that to for quick time renderings.
High end is careful with their money these days too so be careful how much money you plow into this idea. Grow it organically and be hard on it. Make sure the business is paying you from go.
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it! Decks Blog
Paul:
I've been trying to sell 3D modeling for decades because it's how I have to draw in order to understand the building. Not many takers so far, and those who have appreciated a fairly well turned-out model seem to expect it to be essentially free. The few pieces I've been able to sell have been model homes for high-volume builders, and I've ended up making far ess on them than I do for simple permit plans & elevations. Their main value to me has been advertising appeal for folks who just want more plans & elevations.
My 3D work, except when I'm just playing, is not at all the high-end stuff you describe -- just basic renderings in Architectural Desktop / VIZ Render / Photoshop. Now and then I'll send a model that I've created anyway in the course of doing those plans & elevations to a client to show features not easily conveyed in 2D. These things often get rave reviews but when I try to charge even a tiny fee for it I usually hit a wall.
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